The Return of Ess Runners?

[AlexRose]

I doubt people who only make 2m an hour will be the ones using this, though. I make double that at TDs, meaning I could afford to break even at a wage of 1.4m/hr for runners, which is damn decent.

 

That said, the people doing this will probably be richer than me. We're talking bigtime merchers who can throw away 500m on 99 rc no problem just to have the cape. They might end up paying runners upwards of 60k a cycle, which is quite a profit.

 

Ehh, probably not that high. At 60k a cycle (about 1.7 million an hour for runners!), you'd be spending about 130 GP an experience point, which is like 1.3 billion GP to 99 from 80 something.

 

One thing I'd like to know is what the crafting rates were at w66. It'd cost quite a bit less, having only to pay for Pure Essence, but also would give less exp (10 exp an essence there, as opposed to about 18 exp at ZMI). I'm more interested in the effiency comparision between the two services, as opposed to just the ZMI.

[green9090]

I doubt people who only make 2m an hour will be the ones using this, though. I make double that at TDs, meaning I could afford to break even at a wage of 1.4m/hr for runners, which is damn decent.

 

That said, the people doing this will probably be richer than me. We're talking bigtime merchers who can throw away 500m on 99 rc no problem just to have the cape. They might end up paying runners upwards of 60k a cycle, which is quite a profit.

 

Ehh, probably not that high. At 60k a cycle (about 1.7 million an hour for runners!), you'd be spending about 130 GP an experience point, which is like 1.3 billion GP to 99 from 80 something.

For such a slow skill, when your income consists of soloing TDs with a steel titan and all the max stuff and flipping with over 2b, that sounds about right.

 

Of course, I doubt that'll become the norm, but the point is that there are people with a high enough income/cashpiles for that to make sense.

[pulli23]

As said there are a few different things:

 

-previously merchanting wasn't that hard-cut.. If done well one could sell decent (like 1-2k at a time) quantaties of laws at 500 gp each (meaning it was around 400k profit for lawrunning). - Also many did this to get laws for personal use (and since trading wasn't so easy this was a good excuse to make less than good money!)

-Making money was much more difficult: making 1M an hour was the very top money.. Now that is comparable to like 5M an hour nowadays

-It always only drew the attention of the lower lvl new p2pers (those who's skills don't surpass lv 50).. Now lvl 50 is gained about twice as fast, so to get to the same amount of people you'll have to make it the best money maker for everyone untill lvl 60ish stats.

 

So if comparing the methods you'll be wanting to give the runners around 1-1.5M coins an hour - otherwise no runner would come. 1m an hour is possible with other-no-skill methods.

 

Now let's look to the facts: when I did zmi, I averaged a lap-time around 80-90 seconds. - I'm not really a perfect efficient runner, however after running countless laps I think this is a fair average. Given extra time to trade let's say a run is 100-120 seconds.. That means 30-35 runs an hour are possible..

 

So to make this an efficient money method for runners, you'd have to pay the runners around 50-60k each "lap". - Wether this means 3 times 20k for 13 pess, or 1 time 50k for 26 pess depends on what's more efficient to craft.

 

ps: I always assume the crafters are always giving pess back to the runners - as was usual.

[green9090]

Pulli, if you're going to claim law runners made the equivalent of 5m/hour, you're insane. It was never something any high level would be caught dead doing, because it was only for low levels. Conversely, if there was a way to make 5m/hour guaranteed, today, you'd probably see me there.

 

Law runners made MAYBE the modern equivalent of 1-1.2m/hour. Maybe.

[pulli23]

Pulli, if you're going to claim law runners made the equivalent of 5m/hour, you're insane. It was never something any high level would be caught dead doing, because it was only for low levels. Conversely, if there was a way to make 5m/hour guaranteed, today, you'd probably see me there.

 

Law runners made MAYBE the modern equivalent of 1-1.2m/hour. Maybe.

I'm saying that the inflation has resulted in everything being around 500% more money..

 

Previously thebest methods made 800k-1m an hour (nature rcing). - Law running made 200-300k an hour (really depending on your willingness to sell). + many, many people did it to just get laws for use, not for profit at all.

Now the best methods make around 4.5-5m an hour.

 

 

To attrack runners you hence need to make the profit for runners around 1-1.5m an hour!

[green9090]

91 nature crafters with big runner businesses actually made upwards of 3m/hour, but that's beside the point. I agree that providing runners around 1-1.1m/hour will be required, and we've also done math and found that to be a reasonable cost for high level players.

 

I am not sure what you are trying to argue right now.

[pulli23]

91 nature crafters with big runner businesses actually made upwards of 3m/hour, but that's beside the point. I agree that providing runners around 1-1.1m/hour will be required, and we've also done math and found that to be a reasonable cost for high level players.

 

I am not sure what you are trying to argue right now.

my reply was aimed at alex rose..

 

He suggested that "400k an hour was way more than previously made". - And while this is discutable (laws were averaging 300gp on members world, yet on f2p often large quantaties could be sold at 500gp ea - made my first few mil merching that). But moreover, 400k nowadays is peanuts, yet back in 2007 it was considerable money.

 

I also just realize that this might have a much better side effect:

-It would equal out wealth amongst everyone in runescape. (And not by a forced method which jagex would implement, but in a way everyone is happy). This would be very healthy for the economy I think. (I always see the huge difference between "new" players wealth and "old" players wealth as something unwanted).

[AlexRose]

91 nature crafters with big runner businesses actually made upwards of 3m/hour, but that's beside the point. I agree that providing runners around 1-1.1m/hour will be required, and we've also done math and found that to be a reasonable cost for high level players.

 

I disagree with that price range. Yes, for high level players, 500k an hour is pretty slow and wouldn't be enticing. But I believe there's a significant amount of lower leveled players who would be more than satisfied making 500, 400, even 300k an hour with pretty a method that has pretty much no skill requirements.

 

He suggested that "400k an hour was way more than previously made". - And while this is discutable (laws were averaging 300gp on members world, yet on f2p often large quantaties could be sold at 500gp ea - made my first few mil merching that). But moreover, 400k nowadays is peanuts, yet back in 2007 it was considerable money.

 

I adknowledged this in my final paragraph. I'm really not sure what exactly level 50 or 60 players would find as enticing in 2010 as they did in 2007, but I still feel that the level is considerably less than a million an hour. What could an average level 60 reasonably spend 2-3 million on?

[green9090]

I dunno Alex... kids these days with their green dragons and their fruit bat scrolls and whatnot do indeed make enough in other methods that I don't see anything under 800k attracting enough runners to really get a good exp rate going. You need enough kids running for you to spend a lot of your time trading or it just isn't worth it versus running yourself, and you're going to be competing with other very rich players to get that gaggle of noobs working for you.

[AlexRose]

I dunno Alex... kids these days with their green dragons and their fruit bat scrolls and whatnot do indeed make enough in other methods that I don't see anything under 800k attracting enough runners to really get a good exp rate going. You need enough kids running for you to spend a lot of your time trading or it just isn't worth it versus running yourself, and you're going to be competing with other very rich players to get that gaggle of noobs working for you.

 

And der' fancah void clothin; and holy rock toolsmuhwhatit, they have it so damn easy these days. I remembah when we used ta' run Laws, we had to walk to da' altar, in deh' abyss, both damn ways!

 

*ahem* Again, I'm not thinking about the level 100s+, who do indeed have various methods that earn a considerable amount. I'm thinking more along the lines of the level 60-70 that wields a d scim, granite shield, and rune armour, with like 40-50 in most skills. Those people would be quite interested in raking in 500k an hour.

 

You're right, of course, regarding rich people who would be willing to spend in excess of 50 gp/exp to train Runecrafting quickly. It'd be interesting to see where the equalibirum price would settle for this service. Again, we'd really just have to test it out to see what people would be willing to pay, and how many people would be willing to work for that price.

[pulli23]

I dunno Alex... kids these days with their green dragons and their fruit bat scrolls and whatnot do indeed make enough in other methods that I don't see anything under 800k attracting enough runners to really get a good exp rate going. You need enough kids running for you to spend a lot of your time trading or it just isn't worth it versus running yourself, and you're going to be competing with other very rich players to get that gaggle of noobs working for you.

 

And der' fancah void clothin; and holy rock toolsmuhwhatit, they have it so damn easy these days. I remembah when we used ta' run Laws, we had to walk to da' altar, in deh' abyss, both damn ways!

 

*ahem* Again, I'm not thinking about the level 100s+, who do indeed have various methods that earn a considerable amount. I'm thinking more along the lines of the level 60-70 that wields a d scim, granite shield, and rune armour, with like 40-50 in most skills. Those people would be quite interested in raking in 500k an hour.

 

You're right, of course, regarding rich people who would be willing to spend in excess of 50 gp/exp to train Runecrafting quickly. It'd be interesting to see where the equalibirum price would settle for this service. Again, we'd really just have to test it out to see what people would be willing to pay, and how many people would be willing to work for that price.

The amount of lv 40-50ish (in skill-average) people has dwindled the last few years so much.. You won't hardly find enough people around those lvls to make a running business.. The mass of lower lvled players is around 60-70ish skills.. So you'll have to make it good for those who can do green dragons. Those people already make around 1m an hour these days.

 

But using runners was never ever a cost-efficient method of training runecrafting: the only reason people did this was because they wanted to have this skill "over" - to have their goal and they would be willing to loose wealth on the way.

 

 

I do think the prices will settle around 40-50k a "run" (with essence back).

[Rsvote]

I'm also interested to see if this will return, and will probably be doing a blog (http://rsvote.wordpress.com) pondering what will "return" with the return of free trade/etc.

 

EDIT: http://rsvote.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/nostalgia/ <--- Wrote the blog.

[Laura]

Any way that you spin the ZMI running probably isn't worth it. As it is, I can get 1,000 experience per minute running to the alter myself with approximately ~50 different runes being crafted (level 96). You would need at least three different runners to appear at twenty second intervals and you'd probably be paying through the nose to get a bit under 1.5x the normal experience rate. Also keep in mind that route to the alter is dangerous which discourages the quintessential lower level from running. On top of that, the requirements to unlock the lunar spellbook and the Ourania teleport are pretty high. In which case, runners would have to run back and forth through the trail (effectively doubling their damage because they don't have the spell requirements) which in turn probably slows the running rate to 90 seconds or so. Then you have to factor in their subpar gear (running with rune armor) and their unwillingness to by super energy potions.

 

You'd probably need a ratio of five or six runners per crafter. So I suppose if a world was created just for this purpose it might work, but I really don't see it being an effective means of obtaining runecrafting experience at the moment.

[All_Is_Great]

Any way that you spin the ZMI running probably isn't worth it. As it is, I can get 1,000 experience per minute running to the alter myself with approximately ~50 different runes being crafted (level 96). You would need at least three different runners to appear at twenty second intervals and you'd probably be paying through the nose to get a bit under 1.5x the normal experience rate. Also keep in mind that route to the alter is dangerous which discourages the quintessential lower level from running. On top of that, the requirements to unlock the lunar spellbook and the Ourania teleport are pretty high. In which case, runners would have to run back and forth through the trail (effectively doubling their damage because they don't have the spell requirements) which in turn probably slows the running rate to 90 seconds or so. Then you have to factor in their subpar gear (running with rune armor) and their unwillingness to by super energy potions.

 

You'd probably need a ratio of five or six runners per crafter. So I suppose if a world was created just for this purpose it might work, but I really don't see it being an effective means of obtaining runecrafting experience at the moment.

 

I think that's a good point, most people who are able to run it would be overqualified.

[Nifflin]

Any way that you spin the ZMI running probably isn't worth it. As it is, I can get 1,000 experience per minute running to the alter myself with approximately ~50 different runes being crafted (level 96). You would need at least three different runners to appear at twenty second intervals and you'd probably be paying through the nose to get a bit under 1.5x the normal experience rate. Also keep in mind that route to the alter is dangerous which discourages the quintessential lower level from running. On top of that, the requirements to unlock the lunar spellbook and the Ourania teleport are pretty high. In which case, runners would have to run back and forth through the trail (effectively doubling their damage because they don't have the spell requirements) which in turn probably slows the running rate to 90 seconds or so. Then you have to factor in their subpar gear (running with rune armor) and their unwillingness to by super energy potions.

 

You'd probably need a ratio of five or six runners per crafter. So I suppose if a world was created just for this purpose it might work, but I really don't see it being an effective means of obtaining runecrafting experience at the moment.

 

I think that's a good point, most people who are able to run it would be overqualified.

 

Well, it would be up to the crafters then to pay an adequate amount to attract people. There must be people rich enough to do this,it just becomes a question on if there are enough of these people to support a ZMI runecrafting company.

[AlexRose]

Any way that you spin the ZMI running probably isn't worth it. As it is, I can get 1,000 experience per minute running to the alter myself with approximately ~50 different runes being crafted (level 96). You would need at least three different runners to appear at twenty second intervals and you'd probably be paying through the nose to get a bit under 1.5x the normal experience rate.

 

You can make 60 runs an hour? Or is that 1k exp an averaged experience rate? I was under the impression that players generally could do 40-45 runs an hour. A runner every 20 seconds (or two runners that give 13 essence each, minus banking at BoB) would be 180 crafting cycles an hour, which is about 2.75x more essence crafted (considering those cycles are only 26 essence).

 

 

Also keep in mind that route to the alter is dangerous which discourages the quintessential lower level from running.

 

Strength in numbers. Living Rock Cavern has several high level, agressive monsters, yet skillers can quite safely skill there in World 84. A suficently large service would negate this problem.

 

 

On top of that, the requirements to unlock the lunar spellbook and the Ourania teleport are pretty high. In which case, runners would have to run back and forth through the trail (effectively doubling their damage because they don't have the spell requirements) which in turn probably slows the running rate to 90 seconds or so.

 

 

Accounted for in the Profit per Hour calcs.

 

 

 

Then you have to factor in their subpar gear (running with rune armor) and their unwillingness to buy super energy potions.

 

Ignoring that the benefits provided from the super energies would far exceed the cost of purchase, a stingy runner could buy regular energy potions, which are affordable to pretty much anyone. And again, sufficent strength in numbers would mostly negate the need for armour (or at least large amounts of armour).

 

 

You'd probably need a ratio of five or six runners per crafter. So I suppose if a world was created just for this purpose it might work,

 

Which was the idea.

[miracleman58]

Wasnt w16 Airs like 2k per trade? And that had so many people, when i did it a few times i had traders constantly.

[AlexRose]

Wasnt w16 Airs like 2k per trade? And that had so many people, when i did it a few times i had traders constantly.

 

That's F2p, which has considerably less income options than p2p does.

[Laura]

You can make 60 runs an hour? Or is that 1k exp an averaged experience rate? I was under the impression that players generally could do 40-45 runs an hour. A runner every 20 seconds (or two runners that give 13 essence each, minus banking at BoB) would be 180 crafting cycles an hour, which is about 2.75x more essence crafted (considering those cycles are only 26 essence).

 

Yes, I can easily achieve a run every 60 seconds which yields approximately 60k experience an hour. It's possible to achieve more with the use of an abyssal lurker. My figure assumes that the runners deliver 25 essence at a time, therefor having three runners at 20 second intervals would yield 1.5x the normal crafting rate (or 75 essence per minute).

 

Ignoring that the benefits provided from the super energies would far exceed the cost of purchase, a stingy runner could buy regular energy potions, which are affordable to pretty much anyone. And again, sufficent strength in numbers would mostly negate the need for armour (or at least large amounts of armour).

It's debatable, but it's doubtful that these lower levels will use these potions. Even if so, about .25 to .5 essence would be lost from every inventory depending on the amount of people in the world (and thus the equipment used).

 

You'd probably need a ratio of five or six runners per crafter. So I suppose if a world was created just for this purpose it might work,

 

Which was the idea.

Given the large amount of clicks required, getting a runner done in ten seconds doesn't sound feasible. And then how much are you paying these runners to compete with other crafters? 10k? 20k?

 

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I don't see it becoming an effective or adopted form of Runecrafting. Other alters sure, but not ZMI.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Wasnt w16 Airs like 2k per trade? And that had so many people, when i did it a few times i had traders constantly.

That's F2p, which has considerably less income options than p2p does.

Yeah, F2P was always 2k per run and I can't see it doing any higher then 2.5k/run now. F2P moneymaking hasn't really gone up a whole lot in the time since running was popular.

[stonewall337]

I dunno Alex... kids these days with their green dragons and their fruit bat scrolls and whatnot do indeed make enough in other methods that I don't see anything under 800k attracting enough runners to really get a good exp rate going. You need enough kids running for you to spend a lot of your time trading or it just isn't worth it versus running yourself, and you're going to be competing with other very rich players to get that gaggle of noobs working for you.

What about runners who travel WITH the crafter? So the crafter is running, as well as the person being a glorified abyssal lurker. I'd pay a good bit to get a 50%+ increase in speed crafting. They'd have to be as fast as the crafter, or have 2+ people moving, but it would work. Assuming that having these extra people + the extra cost beats solo ZMI, I've only ever done w16 airs, so I', not sure.

[Jimmyw3000]

Wasnt w16 Airs like 2k per trade? And that had so many people, when i did it a few times i had traders constantly.

That's F2p, which has considerably less income options than p2p does.

Yeah, F2P was always 2k per run and I can't see it doing any higher then 2.5k/run now. F2P moneymaking hasn't really gone up a whole lot in the time since running was popular.

well it has (kind of), but relatively speaking, it's still roughly the same.

 

only problem is that airs are so cheap >.>

 

before open 2k was profiting at 55 rc, with 14/15ea per air. not the airs are 11 gp ea >.> so its a loss all the way till 99

[pulli23]

You can make 60 runs an hour? Or is that 1k exp an averaged experience rate? I was under the impression that players generally could do 40-45 runs an hour. A runner every 20 seconds (or two runners that give 13 essence each, minus banking at BoB) would be 180 crafting cycles an hour, which is about 2.75x more essence crafted (considering those cycles are only 26 essence).

 

Yes, I can easily achieve a run every 60 seconds which yields approximately 60k experience an hour. It's possible to achieve more with the use of an abyssal lurker. My figure assumes that the runners deliver 25 essence at a time, therefor having three runners at 20 second intervals would yield 1.5x the normal crafting rate (or 75 essence per minute).

 

Ignoring that the benefits provided from the super energies would far exceed the cost of purchase, a stingy runner could buy regular energy potions, which are affordable to pretty much anyone. And again, sufficent strength in numbers would mostly negate the need for armour (or at least large amounts of armour).

It's debatable, but it's doubtful that these lower levels will use these potions. Even if so, about .25 to .5 essence would be lost from every inventory depending on the amount of people in the world (and thus the equipment used).

 

You'd probably need a ratio of five or six runners per crafter. So I suppose if a world was created just for this purpose it might work,

 

Which was the idea.

Given the large amount of clicks required, getting a runner done in ten seconds doesn't sound feasible. And then how much are you paying these runners to compete with other crafters? 10k? 20k?

 

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I don't see it becoming an effective or adopted form of Runecrafting. Other alters sure, but not ZMI.

Have you ever actually seen the law run world?

 

You didn't have "runners" - you were just wielding a special outfit and announcing you were open (waiting for a trade). There was a constant stream of runners walking back and forth (I guess around 1500)

[Laura]

Have you ever actually seen the law run world?

 

You didn't have "runners" - you were just wielding a special outfit and announcing you were open (waiting for a trade). There was a constant stream of runners walking back and forth (I guess around 1500)

Of course I have. You cannot compare the two, however. The intrinsic qualities of the ZMI put it in a different class entirely. You simply can't get the same runners you get at the law alter to run to the Ourania alter. As another user posted, most of the runners would be 'overqualified.'

 

EDIT: Although I suppose there is always the safe route.

[The Observer]

Back then I wasn't a high enough level to do any of that. Now after the few years of its removal I can probably start doing this. :P