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[Discussion] gambling in runescape, RS Mafia&CO, solutions to the problem


jjjon123

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I would like to take up Kimberly's offer and start a legtimate thread about the recent issue about corrupt p mods being bought out by those with the largest cashpile.

 

This is something that I would really like to read about.

 

The main point I want to bring up is how Jagex will handle this (if they even do) and if not if this problem will grow and spread to other clans with pmod (and maybe jmod) enforcers.

 

But I have some other points I would like to discuss such as...

 

Should Jagex ban gambling

As in make it a reportable rule? As long as there is free trade their will be those who will try to expand their bank by extorting the naive, less intelligent, and gambling type of people. Will this for the most part stamp out the problem or just drive dcing/flower clans into hiding?

 

Should Jagex legalize gambling?

As in make a rs "casino" Now obviously this will never happen because of the family-friendly aspect of Jagex. But what if they did?

 

What do you think should be done about the means of gambling?

This wasn't much of a problem back in 07, there all you had were trust games and scamming. But when Jagex made dice,once FT came back it only took one to equate dice with gambling and then FT with casinos and cash. (I know flowers existed for a long time but I never remember those ever being used for gambling)

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Jagex has handled this in a passive manner - they've filed it under "trust trades", and strongly discourage moderators of any sort to take part of any of it - even with the punishments as high as removal of moderator status. Only recently have they actually been doing something about it - trust trades by their very nature are scams.

 

As for your three main points:

 

1) This form of gambling could be argued as emergent gameplay, and it'd be a successful argument. The intent of the dice was for a bit of fun; gambling happens to be a side-effect. I believe that the notion for the dice was more of a D&D style roleplay, but that's only a theory.

 

2) Despite Jagex making the claim that this game is not for kids, gambling (in a casino-like environment) is still reserved for those 21 and up, and often frowned upon if done online. I don't think that the heavy criticism and negative press would be worth the implementation time. Not to mention, I couldn't imagine it being a very popular spot.

 

3) There are many means of gambling. If we consider everything in the game to be a [pseudo-] random generator, then any and every game that you can stake in for quantities of cash is a form of gambling. There are merely forms which have been integrated into the game and forms that are emergent - the forms that are integrated are likely accepted by Jagex (but, if I recall correctly, still drew criticism for teenagers showing gambling-like addictions towards it).

 

Emergent forms of gambling are frowned upon due to the inherent trust needed to complete the process. I don't think that allowing games like the "flower game" or "dice game" would be in the community's best interests.

Edited by Makoto_the_Phoenix

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Glad to see the topic revived, hopefully without detractions to the issue that caused the first thread to be locked. My thoughts are as follows

 

Should Jagex ban gambling? Short answer: No

 

Detailed answer: Banning gambling would do little to deter scammers. Scammers have gotten proficient in abuse report evasion (such as having difficult to report usernames, operating in areas where messages are devoured in a sea of chat, etc.). If Jagex bans gambling the scammers will just find a new way to scam. As it is now, it seems like Jagex policy is to treat merely hosting these games as an actionable offence (I've gotten a black mark for item scamming that resulted from being a legit flower host, the only evidence disclosed to me was a log of only my chat, save for this policy, the evidence against me is insufficient to substantiate a claim of item scamming.) despite there being no mention of the topic in the official item scamming rule. This policy is more likely to catch a legit host than a scammer (a legit host would have no reason to take counter measures against players' ability to report).

 

Should Jagex legalize gambling? Short answer: Yes

 

Detailed answer: It does not necessarily have to be a casino type place, perhaps some item from Faruq (since this is emergant gameplay) that holds the host to their word, making betting secure. Jagex's family image shouldn't be of too much concern. If it was, alcoholic beverages wouldn't make me a better smith (dwarven stout) :P. Gambling is already present with such things as soul wars zeal and barbarian assault points, and there isn't any moral outrage from parents about that.

 

What do you think should be done about the means of gambling?

 

Dice and flower games seem to be by the most popular methods to gamble among the gambling community, Jagex should work around those two games primarily perhaps expanding to other games. One way would be to make secure betting possible in the buthathrope games room, and expanding upon that would probably be to allow staking on the games the area already has.

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No, Jagex should not ban gambling. As Neogilgamesh said they already have their own gambling options with Zeal points, Barbarian Assault and even random event gift has mystery box. Of course they are a little bit different that you always win something even tough getting burnt meat is pretty much same thing as losing.

 

What about adding room to POH that can allow secure gambling? House owner would be host.

 

If that would destroy their family friendly option I guess another option would be allowing current form of gambling with flowers and dices. But in this case they should tweak their abuse report system so that they can see flower and dice results and can ban scammers easily.

 

I have never gambled in Runescape and in real life as it is really waste of money as you are never going to win in long term, but if someone else likes it and wants to gamble, I do not see any problem with that.

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Gambling

I would encourage Jagex not to syndicate gambling as who knows what effects this could have on persons once they reach the age where gambling becomes an actual choice they can make.

 

However, staking is one of the purest forms of gambling. Call it what you want, but it is gambling. In terms of their being real legal repercussions to allowing gambling on runescape, this is entirely not an issue. 1. Jagex virtual currency holds no value in accordance to Jagex. Because of this, it does NOT violate any sort of online gambling law. Otherwise, as mentioned, staking would require Jagex to obtain a gambling license. Read about the Gambling act of 2005, if you want to learn more.

 

PMods

Ever since the existence, I have felt that player mods are a bad idea. Jagex always harps on the fact they they like to introduce content that gives all players a fair and equal chance. Giving players a moderator status puts said players on a pedestal. Because some of these players are 15-16 year old kids, of course they get a little power hungry or see have no problem with exploiting the privileges that they received.

 

I feel like corruption among pmods was obviously bound to happen, and it is Jagex's fault for giving such a freedom and then monitoring the activity of said players so poorly.

 

Lastly I would like to point out that I think the player who mentioned that the ban of gambling wouldn't really do much to deter gambling is pretty genius. I'm sure it would cut profits a little bit, however as pointed out, botting is a bannable offense, yet arguably nearly half of the rs population does it.

 

Edit: One last thing. As far as Jagex supported gambling in runescape (besides staking), you can hardly consider this gambling. Being an avid gambler IRL, I have attended conferences and shows in vegas that feature nothing more than "new" casino games (mainly jobless math majors trying to make a quick buck). The key to a good game is

1.The player has to feel like he has good odds and/or that he can beat it.

2. The casino needs to make a decent amount of money of it.

3. It needs to be appealing.

 

Mystery box/Zeal Points/Barbarian Assult/Kingly Imps/etc are poor forms of Jagex supported gambling. I would guess that the expected value of any of these games is likely -80%, where you can only expect to earn back 20% of any money you put into these activities.

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If you were referring to me n64, I said it wouldn't deter scamming, but yes banning gambling would do little to deter gambling. People quite simply WANT to gamble, as long as there is a demand people will seek to profit off giving a supply. Prohibition did not work primarily because people wanted to drink, alcohol was just simply too deeply ingrained into the culture as is gambling is deeply ingrained into Runescape's community.

 

When item lending came out, renting quickly emerged. Renting was initially dependant upon trust, but instead of banning it, Jagex made it secure by integrating lending into the trade system. Dice games are currently in this boat, currently dependant on trust. In game support for the gambling community is just simply the only reasonable solution.

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In response to gambling, I think its ok as long there is a secure way to make sure players participate in such a event won't lose their bet to potential scammers.

 

In response to P Mod, Again, I am sure there are couple people who shouldn't deserve the pmod status, but I don't think they would offer any unfair advantage in terms of gameplay. Also, player are free to report Pmod if they break rules too, anyone who break rules will be subject to punishment, Pmod including (in fact, they should get punished even more since they are suppose to upheld and enforce the rules, well at least not to break any).

 

In response to Mafia.......that's just like online bullying....so report them when appropriate offense occurs, or put them on your ignore list, or maybe get other pmods to be present.

a happy Runescaper

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I can't imagine Jagex doing anything other than ignoring the...'issue'. If asked directly I'm sure it will be "against the spirit of the game".

 

That's what they say, yep. :P

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With regards to the whole gambling on RS, I believe that its down to the player as an iduvigual to see if what they are doing is a scam.

 

I kind of regard this as the same as merching, simply because Jagex know about it, but they dont really do anything about it till it gets far to big to be controlled.

 

I guess its a basis of play the game how you want. If you want to play dice or scam other players to get your gp in game, thats your choice. If you want to play the game in an honest way, then you do so, and ignore the gamblers.

 

Simply put : The gamblers arent going to go away, and Jagex will not add main content to the game that will allow people to gamble in its modern sense (as a casino).

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After reason 64n's topic, I went to world 22 and attempted to open my own clan chat for dicing. I made it LOOK like I was auto typing, but I was not.

 

First, members of another dicing clan chat accuse me of auto typing:

 

 

Then I get muted:

 

 

As you can see I'm clearly item scamming derp. If there is a problem with my post mods, contact me and I will edit it, please do not lock this topic.

LOL

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With regards to the whole gambling on RS, I believe that its down to the player as an iduvigual to see if what they are doing is a scam.

 

I kind of regard this as the same as merching, simply because Jagex know about it, but they dont really do anything about it till it gets far to big to be controlled.

 

I guess its a basis of play the game how you want. If you want to play dice or scam other players to get your gp in game, thats your choice. If you want to play the game in an honest way, then you do so, and ignore the gamblers.

 

Simply put : The gamblers arent going to go away, and Jagex will not add main content to the game that will allow people to gamble in its modern sense (as a casino).

 

Just to let you know, scamming was outlawed. We are actually going backwards now

http://runescape.wikia.com/index.php?title=Rules_of_RuneScape&diff=1268795&oldid=1248109

 

Anyways, gambling is not necessary scamming.

 

 

As you can see I'm clearly item scamming derp. If there is a problem with my post mods, contact me and I will edit it, please do not lock this topic.

 

Jagex got lousy again. Just gather evidence that you did pay people and appeal.

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Maybe Jagex could make a casino and make you sign a formal agreement that you are over 18 or something. I must say I'm disgusted the way some hosts behave.

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After reason 64n's topic, I went to world 22 and attempted to open my own clan chat for dicing. I made it LOOK like I was auto typing, but I was not.

 

First, members of another dicing clan chat accuse me of auto typing:

 

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/6729/110515232234.png

 

Then I get muted:

 

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6884/110516081321.png

 

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4482/110516081350.png

 

As you can see I'm clearly item scamming derp. If there is a problem with my post mods, contact me and I will edit it, please do not lock this topic.

 

Why would you make it seem like you auto-type?

At least vary it up a bit - that way if they mute you, it has to be for other reasons

 

I actually was mixing it up a bit, thats only a small portion of the evidence. And it was for other reasons, i was "item scamming" apparently, even though the only time i traded someone was to give them 2 gp.

LOL

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I actually was mixing it up a bit, thats only a small portion of the evidence. And it was for other reasons, i was "item scamming" apparently, even though the only time i traded someone was to give them 2 gp.

 

Sounds more like you are trying to flame someone else for scamming, rather than attempting to scam.

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Should Jagex ban gambling

 

Yes, most definately. The fact there are so many out there to scam alongside the apparent "Legit" ones should be reason enough to shut it down.

 

 

Should Jagex legalize gambling?

 

No, they shouldn't condone it at all.

 

What do you think should be done about the means of gambling?

 

They should be removed, there's really no real reason to have a Dice in the game, or things like that. People who are taking part and advertising should receive infringements on their account and dealt with in an appropriate manner.

 

 

Money making rackets like this should not be allowed to exist, it is creating a very unstable foundation and is rapidly growing...It can not possibly become safe, so it should be removed entirely.

 

Soupy17, as honest as you may have been trying to be...Pretending to auto typer is a problem. Yes, you're not using a bot, but you are being disruptive to the free flowing chat around you. It is never seen as necessary to repeat yourself the amount of times you did, you were basically asking to be muted. What you were doing is disruptive behaviour, and the potential to scam is always there so that's another strike.

 

A tad off topic, one of these clans now has me on their ignore list...For no clear reason. Yes, you call yourself legitimate, I can state otherwise. :thumbup:

RIP Michaelangelopolous

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Gambling at the moment should be banned. Although it may appear to be legit, you never know if the person that is hosting is being a scammer or not, therefore falling under the "trust trades" category.

 

I myself think it is silly anyway. Staking should be the only form of legit gambling, and should be kept at that.

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I actually was mixing it up a bit, thats only a small portion of the evidence. And it was for other reasons, i was "item scamming" apparently, even though the only time i traded someone was to give them 2 gp.

 

Sounds more like you are trying to flame someone else for scamming, rather than attempting to scam.

Not against the rules last time I checked.

 

And newb, I have two things to say to you:

 

A) Jagex should draw a line as to what is flooding the chatbox and what is not. I made sure to never have more than 1 line in the chatbox at once, in the 2 pictures I posted, the one in game I have my chat on friends, so it only appears that way for me, and in the other one it only shows what I said and what the person who reported me said.

 

B) Also, do you not have barrows gloves :o? No flaming, im just curious as I always see you rocking a regen with torva :P

 

And yes, I was well aware I could be muted, but I also made sure I did not break any rules where I would deserve one, according to jagex's standards.

LOL

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I actually was mixing it up a bit, thats only a small portion of the evidence. And it was for other reasons, i was "item scamming" apparently, even though the only time i traded someone was to give them 2 gp.

 

Sounds more like you are trying to flame someone else for scamming, rather than attempting to scam.

Not against the rules last time I checked.

 

And newb, I have two things to say to you:

 

A) Jagex should draw a line as to what is flooding the chatbox and what is not. I made sure to never have more than 1 line in the chatbox at once, in the 2 pictures I posted, the one in game I have my chat on friends, so it only appears that way for me, and in the other one it only shows what I said and what the person who reported me said.

 

Also, do you not have barrows gloves :o? No flaming, im just curious as I always see you rocking a regen with torva :P

 

And yes, I was well aware I could be muted, but I also made sure I did not break any rules where I would deserve one, according to jagex's standards.

 

6. What is flooding the chat window?

 

Spamming/flooding the chat window is to fill the chat window with unnecessary text. This is an offence and is disruptive and unfair on other players, as it makes it more difficult for them to communicate and trade with each other.

 

From the rules. You stated it is only one line in the chat box, but even that is going to cause a disruption if you are to repeat yourself so many times. It is really unnecessary, I'm afraid.

 

No Barrows Gloves, no. Regeneration Bracelet all the way. :thumbup:

RIP Michaelangelopolous

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I actually was mixing it up a bit, thats only a small portion of the evidence. And it was for other reasons, i was "item scamming" apparently, even though the only time i traded someone was to give them 2 gp.

 

Sounds more like you are trying to flame someone else for scamming, rather than attempting to scam.

Not against the rules last time I checked.

 

And newb, I have two things to say to you:

 

A) Jagex should draw a line as to what is flooding the chatbox and what is not. I made sure to never have more than 1 line in the chatbox at once, in the 2 pictures I posted, the one in game I have my chat on friends, so it only appears that way for me, and in the other one it only shows what I said and what the person who reported me said.

 

Also, do you not have barrows gloves :o? No flaming, im just curious as I always see you rocking a regen with torva :P

 

And yes, I was well aware I could be muted, but I also made sure I did not break any rules where I would deserve one, according to jagex's standards.

 

6. What is flooding the chat window?

 

Spamming/flooding the chat window is to fill the chat window with unnecessary text. This is an offence and is disruptive and unfair on other players, as it makes it more difficult for them to communicate and trade with each other.

 

From the rules. You stated it is only one line in the chat box, but even that is going to cause a disruption if you are to repeat yourself so many times. It is really unnecessary, I'm afraid.

 

No Barrows Gloves, no. Regeneration Bracelet all the way. :thumbup:

It is not unnecessary when my message is not getting across to the people I need it too. I need people to know my clan chat is open for gambling - if it is not in the chat box, nor over my head, then it is not getting out there for my customers to see. Jagex needs to draw a line as to what can be considered disruptive and what cannot.

 

Also its a null point because I was muted for "item scamming" o_o

LOL

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Don't bother appealing, you'll be greeted with the following message:

 

Thank you for sending in your offence appeal - you obviously care about your account, and making sure that you read our rules can help to ensure that you can avoid this situation happening again.

 

At Jagex, we examine offences and offence appeals very carefully before we come to our final decision.

 

In this instance, we have found that you were responsible for this offence, and therefore it will remain on your account.

 

We want you, and every other player, to be positively engaged in our community and the game - if you continue to break our rules, you may reach a point where you are limited to Quick Chat, or even excluded from the game on this account, or any other accounts you have.

 

What do you do now?

 

Go here to have a good read of the Rules of Conduct, there is also good advice on ensuring your account is kept secure in our Safety & Security Guidelines, located in the 'Customer Support' section of our website (www.runescape.com or www.funorb.com).

 

Have fun - enjoy the community and the game - and please don't spoil the experience of your fellow gamers.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jagex Customer Support

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Gambling at the moment should be banned. Although it may appear to be legit, you never know if the person that is hosting is being a scammer or not, therefore falling under the "trust trades" category.

 

I myself think it is silly anyway. Staking should be the only form of legit gambling, and should be kept at that.

 

Agreed.

 

Saying "We don't think you should do it because you might get scammed" won't stop people from doing it as much as saying "Trust Trade Gambling breaches the Item Scamming rule" will.

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Only recently have they actually been doing something about it - trust trades by their very nature are scams.

No sir, they are not. Trust trades are trust trades by their very natures.

They still require some level of trust. Trusting a total stranger with your acquired wealth in one form or another leaves you wide open as a victim of a scam.

 

This is probably why Jagex doesn't look fondly on this sort of emergent form of gambling. It's also why PMods can be punished rather harshly for partaking in it.

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