Waterboarding - Torture?

[The Observer]

In theory, torture should be abolished completely, but sometimes the end result can outweigh the cons. For example, if they find valuable information regarding terrorist organizations that can save millions of lives. Personally, one person being tortured is better than having millions of lives taken.

 

But obviously there's the potential for abuse. It can open the door for governments to start torturing you if they 'suspect you' of being a terrorist. So there's always that.

[Abc1230]

I don't know how any of you can think this is torture. I mean, yeah, the board might be uncomfortable, but is not being able to see and constantly drinking water really that bad? If you're not thirsty anymore, why don't you just breathe through your nose?

[obfuscator]

Because they pour water over your nose?

 

The only way you can withstand it is to hold your breath - not impossible in calm environment.

In this situation, however, your heart is probably beating through your chest, and holding your breath will tighten the cloth around your face (as CH says in the video) so it's very difficult to resist.

 

Certainly I think some people are able to resist it. However, it requires tremendous strength of will that a huge majority of people don't have.

[Abc1230]

If they pour water over your nose, you can just breathe through your mouth. I don't see what's so hard about that. You people really don't think things through, do you?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Were the countless governments who have officially declared waterboarding illegal as a form of torture also 'not thinking things through'?

[obfuscator]

If they pour water over your nose, you can just breathe through your mouth. I don't see what's so hard about that. You people really don't think things through, do you?

They pour water over your nose and mouth at the same time ;)

[Abc1230]

If you drink the water faster than they pour it, you'll be fine. I just did a test by spitting on my sock and I was still able to breathe through it. It's really not that bad

[obfuscator]

If you drink the water faster than they pour it, you'll be fine. I just did a test by spitting on my sock and I was still able to breathe through it. It's really not that bad

A fine test, I'm sure. I suggest a better test would be holding a pillow over your face as you swim.

[Abc1230]

You're kidding, right? The guy was tied to a board. There's no way he'd be able to swim. They used (what appeared to be) a rag, not a pillow. You don't know what you're talking about

[Guest Rob]

Now you're just trollin'.

[obfuscator]

Then dunk your head, covered in a pillow, underwater?

 

They used a thick towel and nylon stocking. Making it already difficult to breath, on top of that having water poured down your throat.

[Abc1230]

How can you have water poured down your throat if your head is upside down? I don't think you mean that they submerge the person's entire body standing up. Where does this pillow keep coming from? I thought the point was to make people uncomfortable. Just admit you're wrong and that you're not making any sense and we can be done with this

[Ginger_Warrior]

Kind of makes you wonder what kind of psychopath invents these methods, actually.

[Sam]

I think it's justified if it saves lives.

[Nomrombom]

How can you have water poured down your throat if your head is upside down? I don't think you mean that they submerge the person's entire body standing up. Where does this pillow keep coming from? I thought the point was to make people uncomfortable. Just admit you're wrong and that you're not making any sense and we can be done with this

 

I really, really hope you're trolling.

 

Basically, the water/cloth combo restricts your breathing down to nothing. The pillow thing was just an analogy, it's not used in waterboarding. They place a cloth over your face and pour water on it, soaking it and letting water enter your nose and throat. The presence of the cloth makes it extremely difficult if not impossible to breath, and the presence of water in the throat and nose (in combination with restricted breath) triggers a gag reflex and makes the brain believe you are drowning (which you technically are). People have given accounts of being affected for years afterward, including fear of water and general trauma. Torture is generally defined as causing severe physical or mental distress, and anyone with half a brain could reason that simulated drowning causes severe physical and mental distress.

[sees_all1]

Try to find common ground - I'd prefer a world in which we'd never need it.

 

That said, we don't live in that world, and I think using waterboarding in extraordinary circumstances is justified. You can make a strong case that it is torture, but I believe that waterboarding doesn't fit the classical mold of torture (physical pain and damage, not psychological).

 

I think it is foolish to prohibit these techniques under all circumstances, and for the three? people that the CIA used these techniques on, I'm not going to waste any effort, time, or breath or thought defending their rights or advocating for their treatment.

People throw their rights out the window when they commit heinous acts.

[Verminox]

If you drink the water faster than they pour it, you'll be fine. I just did a test by spitting on my sock and I was still able to breathe through it. It's really not that bad

 

Just admit you're wrong and that you're not making any sense and we can be done with this

 

What does spitting on a sock have to do with anything?

[obfuscator]

He's trolling....don't know why I bother replying.

 

I did read an interesting article today about wikileaks documents that basically showed water boarding did yield some successful information.

[Magbill]

Definately torture, just hope it's only used when it needs to be used.

[TrueBeaver]

My apologies for the slow response, been a bit busy lately.

 

Kind of makes you wonder what kind of psychopath invents these methods, actually.

Apparently there were other methods that Bush's legal team came up with that would be fine by the law but he wasn't comfortable with. Makes you wonder.

 

---

 

No, I do not think waterboarding is torture. For something to legally be torture it must inflict intense, lasting and heinous agony which are so abominable that they stand apart from other condemnable forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment (Nwaokolo v INS). I do think waterboarding stands apart from other forms of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, but because it's far more humane.

 

 

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340

(1)torture means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) severe mental pain or suffering means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from

(A)the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

© the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality

 

Waterboarding does not inflict severe physical pain, leaving only mental pain or suffering. (A) is the threat of physical pain so that's not germane. (B) is drugging the detainee - that's not germane. (D) isn't germane at all since there are no third parties involved. © is the only somewhat relevant clause, but as I said before: there is a medical team standing by and no threat of imminent death. It makes you panic, sure, but panic is not threat of imminent death. I don't see the case for waterboarding being torture from a legal standpoint, as in other than "It's like, mean and stuff," but I'm sure there is one if someone can aware me.

[Dheginsea]

Ya in my opinion its definetly torture.

[TrueBeaver]

Ya in my opinion its definetly torture.

Why?

[Bmms]

If it needs to be done for the better good then do it. If it is used to get information that isn't for the better good of saving lifes then it is unacceptable.

[Will H]

Ya in my opinion its definetly torture.

Why?

I know you're not asking me, but I'll answer that question anyway.

 

Torture is the infliction of harm on an individual for a purpose other than the infliction of harm itself, such as the extraction of information. Waterboarding causes the perception of harm, in this case drowning. Harm is subjective, so the perceived harm that waterboarding inflicts is equivalent to actual harm. Waterboarding is therefore torture.

 

If your definition of torture doesn't include waterboarding, it is incorrect or you have misunderstood it.

 

Often these things just need a little logic.

[Ginger_Warrior]

There's enough evidence of psychological harm to reject any notion that the harm is subjective - it's very much real. No ifs, buts or maybies.