Israel vs Palestine

[Nifflin]

There was already a thread for that as you stated.

 

Nice save.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Not sure Thomas the Tank Engine had much of an opinion on the Israel-Arab conflict. But I guess since there isn't much of an infrastructure left in Gaza, he'd support efforts to place rail tracks there.

[Napalm]

So when someone doesn't threaten you, you have a right to combat them? Anyways, this is getting off topic so drop that subject. There was already a thread for that as you stated.

 

When they are armed and illegally invading your property, yes, it does give you the right to combat them.

 

Also, you posted the video, don't go saying "there's a thread for that" now.

 

Explain.

 

What is there to explain? Which part do you think needs further explanation?

[The_Gabe]

So when someone doesn't threaten you, you have a right to combat them? Anyways, this is getting off topic so drop that subject. There was already a thread for that as you stated.

 

When they are armed and illegally invading your property, yes, it does give you the right to combat them.

 

Also, you posted the video, don't go saying "there's a thread for that" now.

 

Except the facts that those weapons were paintball guns.

 

I posted it as a show of propaganda and the fact certain people are still only accepting facts of one side. I'm not trying to drag the discussion back in time to a previous thread.

 

Explain.

 

What is there to explain? Which part do you think needs further explanation?

 

How are they oppressed by the Israeli government? Seeing as people in West Bank and Gaza Strip have the 3/14th best life expectancy out of the major Muslim countries. They are not being oppressed by the Israeli government as much as by their leaders.

 

>mfw all the pro-Israel people in this thread have Israel flags in their avatars / sigs

 

Jokes aside, i don't understand why Israelites seem to think that they are entitled to Canaan.

 

I've had that avatar for several months.

 

Thread needs moar cheer and hope tbh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gcu4M4xF6k

 

Once more, thank you for the constructive post.

 

There was already a thread for that as you stated.

 

Nice save.

 

Thank you, because that's exactly what I was trying to do :rolleyes:

[michel555555]

Except the facts that those weapons were paintball guns.

 

You see soldiers rapelling down from a helicoper onto your ship and they are carrying guns. Do you think your going to notice if they are carrying paintball guns or m16s or whatever the IDF is outfitted with? Or are you just going to react?

[The_Gabe]

Except the facts that those weapons were paintball guns.

 

You see soldiers rapelling down from a helicoper onto your ship and they are carrying guns. Do you think your going to notice if they are carrying paintball guns or m16s or whatever the IDF is outfitted with? Or are you just going to react?

 

Except every other ship in this convoy was searched and IDF brings painball guns while doing this. Once more, not the right topic.

[Nomrombom]

Thread needs moar cheer and hope tbh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gcu4M4xF6k

Once more, thank you for the constructive post.

Yw

[Ginger_Warrior]

Oppresion = low life expectency?

 

OK, I've officially given up trying to make sense of any strawman argument you and Israel63 make.

[Nifflin]

Except the facts that those weapons were paintball guns.

 

You see soldiers rapelling down from a helicoper onto your ship and they are carrying guns. Do you think your going to notice if they are carrying paintball guns or m16s or whatever the IDF is outfitted with? Or are you just going to react?

 

Except every other ship in this convoy was searched and IDF brings painball guns while doing this. Once more, not the right topic.

Assuming you're talking about the Mavi Mamablahablah, regardless of their weapons, the sailors would be well within their rights to defend their ship from intruders in international waters, correct?

 

That is correct, it is international waters and they have the legal right to use lethal force if necessary to repel acts of piracy.

[TrueBeaver]

I'm sorry but if that happened here in America, where "big brother" bulldozed homes for "reasons" "good for me" i'd be dead or jailed for shooting the guy driving the bulldozer and whoever else cared he died.

Unfortunately, we have legal precedent for that.

 

Eminent domain is particularly relevant in light of the Mississippi River flooding recently, but this is a topic for a different thread.

---

 

I don't have much to add to the thread at this point as the majority of the recent posts have been about which side has committed worse atrocities so I'll save this post with rainbow sheep.

[The Dark Lord]

The Zionists terrorized the British to get them to sign the Balfour declaration. One of the most notable terrorist acts committed by the Zionists was the King David Hotel bombing. Of course Zionists prefer to talk about the holocaust rather then their history as terrorists.

 

You seemed to forget that the bombing was called in and gave them a warning to evacuate, which they refused, and it was a response to Operation Agatha.

 

This is another difference between the Jewish extremist and the Palestinian terrorist. Jews warned before they attacked. They had a target it involved the British headquarters. Incidence like this happen all the time where the British were warned to remove their troops and have the target blown up, that is how you fight not by blowing yourself up in a cafe.

 

lol. Such good Samaritans.

 

---

 

My view: Jews had no more of a right to "return to their homeland" than any other ethnic group in history that was displaced from their country. Israel isn't an angel, and it's frustrating that a lot of people want to ignore all of the negative things that Israel has done; I have sympathy for the Palestinians because they were living in that land before Israel was formed. It's also frustrating that the Israeli government is so adamant in their stance that there can be no Middle East peace negotiations (don't be naive; there can be no peace deal unless the Israeli government changes its attitude). This stance is likely to escalate conflicts in the region, and as an American, I am obviously concerned about states such as Iran that would wish to destroy the Israeli state. I don't want my country dragged into a war over a battle that is Israel's to fight.

[The_Gabe]

The Zionists terrorized the British to get them to sign the Balfour declaration. One of the most notable terrorist acts committed by the Zionists was the King David Hotel bombing. Of course Zionists prefer to talk about the holocaust rather then their history as terrorists.

 

You seemed to forget that the bombing was called in and gave them a warning to evacuate, which they refused, and it was a response to Operation Agatha.

 

This is another difference between the Jewish extremist and the Palestinian terrorist. Jews warned before they attacked. They had a target it involved the British headquarters. Incidence like this happen all the time where the British were warned to remove their troops and have the target blown up, that is how you fight not by blowing yourself up in a cafe.

 

lol. Such good Samaritans.

 

---

 

My view: Jews had no more of a right to "return to their homeland" than any other ethnic group in history that was displaced from their country. Israel isn't an angel, and it's frustrating that a lot of people want to ignore all of the negative things that Israel has done; I have sympathy for the Palestinians because they were living in that land before Israel was formed. It's also frustrating that the Israeli government is so adamant in their stance that there can be no Middle East peace negotiations (don't be naive; there can be no peace deal unless the Israeli government changes its attitude). This stance is likely to escalate conflicts in the region, and as an American, I am obviously concerned about states such as Iran that would wish to destroy the Israeli state. I don't want my country dragged into a war over a battle that is Israel's to fight.

 

Native Americans were living in the United States before Europeans came and kicked them out? Are you saying that everything America has done is wrong?

 

By the way, Palestinians were forced to leave; they chose to.

 

Israel is trying to persuade peace. 2 prime exams of that are the treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

 

And the whole world is afraid of Iran's nuclear programs (I'm assuming that's what you mean). It's not just Israel.

[The Dark Lord]

Native Americans were living in the United States before Europeans came and kicked them out? Are you saying that everything America has done is wrong?

 

Pretty much, yeah.

 

Wouldn't say everything, though. ;) Just as I'm not saying everything Israel does is bad. I just don't have a lot of respect for someone that denies the serious moral problems that are created by how the Israeli government treats the Palestinian people. And after reading the post about the Jewish extremists that contributed to the creation of the Israeli state through acts of terrorism (which I didn't know about previously), I can honestly say that my respect of the Israeli state has diminished even more, if this actually happened. Like the Irish Republicans, I cannot respect such actions, whether they issued warnings before carrying them out or not.

[The_Gabe]

Native Americans were living in the United States before Europeans came and kicked them out? Are you saying that everything America has done is wrong?

 

I can honestly say that my respect of the Israeli state has diminished even more, if this actually happened. Like the Irish Republicans, I cannot respect such actions, whether they issued warnings before carrying them out or not.

 

I honestly don't think the respect of one person matters, but ok.

 

Like the Irish Republicans, I cannot respect such actions, whether they issued warnings before carrying them out or not.

Then please suggest a way to accomplish the objectives set without harming citizens?

[The_Gabe]

Like the Irish Republicans, I cannot respect such actions, whether they issued warnings before carrying them out or not.

Then please suggest a way to accomplish the objectives set without harming citizens?

 

Ask Martin Luther King or Ghandi.

 

Ask them for me.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I was asking ISRAEL63 the question, Ring. He seemed to be using 'Jewish' and 'Zionist' as the same thing, as though all Jews are Zionists.

 

He is, of course, wrong in that belief.

[ISREAL63]

It was in international waters. Israelis boarded and killed 9 activists including one American. Whatever, UNHCR and other international organizations found after investigating the incident that it violated international law. Not that international law ever mattered to the Israelis. In fact according to maritime law the blockade on Gaza is illegal but that's a whole different story and not one I think you want to bring up.

 

[hide=Here are the facts of the flotilla]

 

Fact 1: The Gaza Strip is an armed camp, ruled with an iron fist by a repressive Hamas regime that has not only repeatedly pledged itself to the annihilation of Israel and the torpedoing of any prospects for Middle East peace, but has made good on its pledges by firing approximately 10,000 missiles, rockets, and mortar bombs at Israeli civilians over the past several years for the express purpose of killing or wounding those civilians or, at a minimum, terrifying them.

 

Fact 2: The United States, the European Union, and the international community have recognized that Hamas is a terrorist enterprise, which surely is beyond dispute.

 

Fact 3: When faced with an armed enemy committed to its destruction, which has done its very best to make war against Israeli civilians, Israel has two choices: to try to protect its civilians from those attacks, or to simply shrug its shoulders and hope that the attacks stop. There is, quite simply, no nation on earth that would choose the latter course, and no reasonable and fair-minded person who would expect it to.

 

Fact 4: In an effort to stop the missiles from being manufactured and used against it, and only for that reason, Israel has been forced to try to keep the materials used for that purpose out of the Gaza Strip. This is an obvious step needed to prevent the kind of war that caused so much destruction in 2008, when the increase in attacks by Hamas and its allies against Israeli civilians eventually triggered an Israeli response to stop them. There can be no real doubt that Israel is entitled to keep weapons of war from being used against it.

 

Fact 5: Israel repeatedly, and expressly, made clear to those who organized the effort to break the embargo that it would willingly take all of the humanitarian aid that was on their boats and transfer it to Gaza, without delay. All that Israel wanted was to be able to ensure that materials were, in fact, humanitarian aid, rather than the sorts of materials used for launching attacks that are supplied to Hamas by the Iranians and others. The organizers of the flotilla refused â because, of course, getting humanitarian aid to Gaza was not what their gambit was really about.

 

Fact 6: Israel regularly provides humanitarian aid to Gaza, and volunteering to get the humanitarian aid from the ships to Gaza was consistent with Israeli policy all along.

 

And Fact 7, which is now coming to light several days after the initial and predictable barrage of criticism of Israel: Those on at least one of the ships planned all along to attack Israelis when they sought to enforce the embargo, and indeed, their attack on the Israelis was brutal.

 

This fact has been starkly captured in video widely circulating around the Internet, showing the vicious beatings initiated by those on board one of the ships against Israelis, who for their part had been instructed to refrain from using any force if at all possible. Indeed, in Israel the military is being criticized for failing to adequately prepare its naval personnel to anticipate the attacks on them from the boats, and for being too passive, and too trusting, in its approach to the flotilla.

 

As for the evidence that certain individuals of those responsible for orchestrating this tragedy are linked to Al Qaeda and other representatives of the worst forces on the planet, the next days will likely yield more information.

 

But the larger issue is this: Has the desire to blame Israel in certain quarters reached such an irrational frenzy that the fundamental facts of any issue relating to the Middle East conflict will reliably be overlooked? Are those who are committed to a fair-minded and reasonable analysis of that conflict prepared to insist that others who like nothing more than jumping to conclusions stop, pause, think, and consider the actual evidence?

 

There will always be those who dont let facts to get in the way of their biases. But fair-minded people examine the evidence before forming conclusions, especially when emotions run high. Israel and the cause of peace in the Middle East is counting on them to do just that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXDev2wXVA&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I6XL2pzguE&feature=player_embedded[/hide]

 

Assuming you're talking about the Mavi Mamablahablah, regardless of their weapons, the sailors would be well within their rights to defend their ship from intruders in international waters, correct?

That is correct, it is international waters and they have the legal right to use lethal force if necessary.

 

 

Israel has a right to defend it self here are the reason why it was legal

 

 

I was asking ISRAEL63 the question, Ring. He seemed to be using 'Jewish' and 'Zionist' as the same thing, as though all Jews are Zionists.

 

He is, of course, wrong in that belief.

 

I never said that Jews and Zionist have the same mean but Israel is the Jewish homeland

[Ginger_Warrior]

To *some* Jews, yes. I know Jews in the UK who won't touch Israel with a ten foot barge poll, because they believe mankind has artificially made Israel, and that the Kingdom will be delivered by God.

 

I also know local Jewish groups who attend pro-Lebanese and Palestinian rallies because they deplore Israel's actions against those two states.

[ISREAL63]

To *some* Jews, yes. I know Jews in the UK who won't touch Israel with a ten foot barge poll, because they believe mankind has artificially made Israel, and that the Kingdom will be delivered by God.

 

AS you said some but most Jews support their homeland in Israel.

[Nifflin]

Okay, I recognized that Isreal63 did not write this and looked it up. It's an opinion piece written by an Israeli for a right wing American publication. Upon looking at the authors credentials I found that he is not an expert in the issue. Thus I cannot take these "facts" as the claims of an expert. Nonetheless, I will respond to them keeping that in consideration.

 

Fact 1: The Gaza Strip is an armed camp, ruled with an iron fist by a repressive Hamas regime that has not only repeatedly pledged itself to the annihilation of Israel and the torpedoing of any prospects for Middle East peace, but has made good on its pledges by firing approximately 10,000 missiles, rockets, and mortar bombs at Israeli civilians over the past several years for the express purpose of killing or wounding those civilians or, at a minimum, terrifying them.

 

Palestinians want to live peacefully, the blockade on their city prevents them from doing so. They fight because they want freedom from the tyranny of the Israeli blockade.

 

Fact 2: The United States, the European Union, and the international community have recognized that Hamas is a terrorist enterprise, which surely is beyond dispute.

 

Hamas is a political organization first and militant second. I've explained that many times. Those same entities (not the US but most of the international community) have agreed that Israel is responsible for many war crimes and crimes against humanity. If you take their word that Hamas is a terrorist group then you must also take their word that Israel commits atrocities.

 

Fact 3: When faced with an armed enemy committed to its destruction, which has done its very best to make war against Israeli civilians, Israel has two choices: to try to protect its civilians from those attacks, or to simply shrug its shoulders and hope that the attacks stop. There is, quite simply, no nation on earth that would choose the latter course, and no reasonable and fair-minded person who would expect it to.

 

Israel has the other choices. Only presenting those two is a logical fallacy, specifically a false dichotomy.

 

Fact 4: In an effort to stop the missiles from being manufactured and used against it, and only for that reason, Israel has been forced to try to keep the materials used for that purpose out of the Gaza Strip. This is an obvious step needed to prevent the kind of war that caused so much destruction in 2008, when the increase in attacks by Hamas and its allies against Israeli civilians eventually triggered an Israeli response to stop them. There can be no real doubt that Israel is entitled to keep weapons of war from being used against it.

 

So much wrong with this fact. First, the blockade has been in place since before 2008. Second, Israel uses the blockade to ban many harmless goods like construction materials. Perhaps it is because Israel doesn't want the people in Gaza to rebuild the schools and hospitals they bombed during the 2008 war.

 

Fact 5: Israel repeatedly, and expressly, made clear to those who organized the effort to break the embargo that it would willingly take all of the humanitarian aid that was on their boats and transfer it to Gaza, without delay. All that Israel wanted was to be able to ensure that materials were, in fact, humanitarian aid, rather than the sorts of materials used for launching attacks that are supplied to Hamas by the Iranians and others. The organizers of the flotilla refused – because, of course, getting humanitarian aid to Gaza was not what their gambit was really about.

 

I reckon it is because of the track record of the IDF, they didn’t trust them for jack [cabbage]. I mean the IDF actually fired on a Red Cross convoy during the Gaza war. How more untrustworthy can people get?

 

Fact 6: Israel regularly provides humanitarian aid to Gaza, and volunteering to get the humanitarian aid from the ships to Gaza was consistent with Israeli policy all along.

False, Israel bans many essential goods from Gaza specifically essential construction materials. That means there are shortages of things like nails in Gaza. I don’t blame the activists for not wanting to turn their cargos over to the Israelis when much of what they wanted to deliver wasn’t anything harmful but only bare essentials that the Israelis have attempted to take away from the Palestinians.

 

And Fact 7, which is now coming to light several days after the initial and predictable barrage of criticism of Israel: Those on at least one of the ships planned all along to attack Israelis when they sought to enforce the embargo, and indeed, their attack on the Israelis was brutal.

 

These aren’t your “facts,” you just copied and pasted them from another source. What is the point of discussion if you don’t even discuss with your own arguments? Perhaps you have none.

Anyways, none of the ships planned attacks. If they had one would think they might have brought actual weapons along like firearms. Just peaceful activists, nice try with making the Turks look like terrorists too. It’s like the generic Israeli fallback.

Step 1: Someone criticizes Israel, if Arab go to Step 2, if non-Arab go to Step 3

Step 2: Find a way to brand them as a terrorist

Step 3: Find a way to call them anti-Semitic.

 

This fact has been starkly captured in video widely circulating around the Internet, showing the vicious beatings initiated by those on board one of the ships against Israelis, who for their part had been instructed to refrain from using any force if at all possible. Indeed, in Israel the military is being criticized for failing to adequately prepare its naval personnel to anticipate the attacks on them from the boats, and for being too passive, and too trusting, in its approach to the flotilla.

 

Actually, they were within the law to use weapons against the Israelis. It was international waters and legally boarding their ships was an act of piracy. The people on the flotilla had no weapons. There were knives because people on ships need to cook and knives are needed for that. There were powertools because powertools are one of the things Israelis don’t allow into Gaza as well as because powertools are needed on ships. They cut rods for construction into crude weapons when they saw their ships were about to be boarded in international waters.

 

As for the evidence that certain individuals of those responsible for orchestrating this tragedy are linked to Al Qaeda and other representatives of the worst forces on the planet, the next days will likely yield more information.

 

This was never proved. The next days yielded that they were in fact only activists.

 

But the larger issue is this: Has the desire to blame Israel in certain quarters reached such an irrational frenzy that the fundamental facts of any issue relating to the Middle East conflict will reliably be overlooked? Are those who are committed to a fair-minded and reasonable analysis of that conflict prepared to insist that others who like nothing more than jumping to conclusions stop, pause, think, and consider the actual evidence?

 

Perhaps Israel should stop committing gross violations of human rights and public opinion towards it will change.

 

There will always be those who don’t let facts to get in the way of their biases. But fair-minded people examine the evidence before forming conclusions, especially when emotions run high.

 

Judging from the overwhelming support for Palestine on this thread (excluding you two), I’m glad that people are in fact being fair minded and coming to the conclusion that Israel is to blame for the war crimes and humanitarian crimes against the Palestinians.

[Nifflin]

They aren't too bad, it's more that it's from an opinion piece by an author with no credentials.

[Ginger_Warrior]

"Most", ISRAEL63? It's a [citation needed] moment I'm afraid. You've already demonstrated a lack of perspective on this topic sufficient enough for me to doubt any statement you make which contains weasel words like 'most' without good evidence, or even a credible source.

[ISREAL63]

Fact 1: The Gaza Strip is an armed camp, ruled with an iron fist by a repressive Hamas regime that has not only repeatedly pledged itself to the annihilation of Israel and the torpedoing of any prospects for Middle East peace, but has made good on its pledges by firing approximately 10,000 missiles, rockets, and mortar bombs at Israeli civilians over the past several years for the express purpose of killing or wounding those civilians or, at a minimum, terrifying them.

 

Palestinians want to live peacefully, the blockade on their city prevents them from doing so. They fight because they want freedom from the tyranny of the Israeli blockade.

 

If they really want peace how those firing rockets at Israel's civilian promote peace? You seem to always avoid admitting that they do fire rockets at Israel civilians. Or how about the murder of a teenager on the way back from school but died at the hand of terrorism. Those this sound like they really want peace?

 

Fact 2: The United States, the European Union, and the international community have recognized that Hamas is a terrorist enterprise, which surely is beyond dispute.

 

Hamas is a political organization first and militant second. I've explained that many times. Those same entities (not the US but most of the international community) have agreed that Israel is responsible for many war crimes and crimes against humanity. If you take their word that Hamas is a terrorist group then you must also take their word that Israel commits atrocities.

 

 

It isn't only Israel that calls Hamas a terrorist group, Its also The USA, Also in the Canadian terrorist list and The EU has Hamas and a few other terrorist groups to. So its not only Israel i think they really are a terrorist organization. You are right they have a political agenda to destroy Israel. Hamas is first a terrorist group and second they have a political agenda. Or can it be they they are all wrong?

 

 

Fact 3: When faced with an armed enemy committed to its destruction, which has done its very best to make war against Israeli civilians, Israel has two choices: to try to protect its civilians from those attacks, or to simply shrug its shoulders and hope that the attacks stop. There is, quite simply, no nation on earth that would choose the latter course, and no reasonable and fair-minded person who would expect it to.

 

Israel has the other choices. Only presenting those two is a logical fallacy, specifically a false dichotomy.

 

You are right there are but Israel tried the other choice which is peace, but Hamas prefer terrorism. In 2005 Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, only to have it used as a terrorism base against Israel. So why doesn't Hamas stop its terrorism and leave peacefully.

 

Fact 4: In an effort to stop the missiles from being manufactured and used against it, and only for that reason, Israel has been forced to try to keep the materials used for that purpose out of the Gaza Strip. This is an obvious step needed to prevent the kind of war that caused so much destruction in 2008, when the increase in attacks by Hamas and its allies against Israeli civilians eventually triggered an Israeli response to stop them. There can be no real doubt that Israel is entitled to keep weapons of war from being used against it.

 

So much wrong with this fact. First, the blockade has been in place since before 2008. Second, Israel uses the blockade to ban many harmless goods like construction materials. Perhaps it is because Israel doesn't want the people in Gaza to rebuild the schools and hospitals they bombed during the 2008 war.

Fact 6: Israel regularly provides humanitarian aid to Gaza, and volunteering to get the humanitarian aid from the ships to Gaza was consistent with Israeli policy all along.

False, Israel bans many essential goods from Gaza specifically essential construction materials. That means there are shortages of things like nails in Gaza. I dont blame the activists for not wanting to turn their cargos over to the Israelis when much of what they wanted to deliver wasnt anything harmful but only bare essentials that the Israelis have attempted to take away from the Palestinians.

 

So he got the year off by one year, the blockade started in 2007 not 2008. Harmless goods like construction materials are used to make rocket and mortars (nails are a key element in them) to be fired at Israel. They don't sound that harmless any more do they? Funny if terrorist weren't firing Rockets and mortars at Israel form schools then Israel wouldn't have bombed them, so what should Israel have done let the Terrorist go?

Here is a video from the official IDF channel on you tube this was filmed by a UAV flying overhead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI

 

Fact 5: Israel repeatedly, and expressly, made clear to those who organized the effort to break the embargo that it would willingly take all of the humanitarian aid that was on their boats and transfer it to Gaza, without delay. All that Israel wanted was to be able to ensure that materials were, in fact, humanitarian aid, rather than the sorts of materials used for launching attacks that are supplied to Hamas by the Iranians and others. The organizers of the flotilla refused â because, of course, getting humanitarian aid to Gaza was not what their gambit was really about.

 

I reckon it is because of the track record of the IDF, they didnt trust them for jack [cabbage]. I mean the IDF actually fired on a Red Cross convoy during the Gaza war. How more untrustworthy can people get?

 

I am not saying this didn't happen but would you show me a article please. The IDF can be trusted In the end Israel delivered the aid to Gaza

 

 

And Fact 7, which is now coming to light several days after the initial and predictable barrage of criticism of Israel: Those on at least one of the ships planned all along to attack Israelis when they sought to enforce the embargo, and indeed, their attack on the Israelis was brutal.

 

These arent your facts, you just copied and pasted them from another source. What is the point of discussion if you dont even discuss with your own arguments? Perhaps you have none.

Anyways, none of the ships planned attacks. If they had one would think they might have brought actual weapons along like firearms. Just peaceful activists, nice try with making the Turks look like terrorists too.

 

It looks to me like it was planned, sound like peaceful activists to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXDev2wXVA&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I6XL2pzguE&feature=player_embedded

 

This fact has been starkly captured in video widely circulating around the Internet, showing the vicious beatings initiated by those on board one of the ships against Israelis, who for their part had been instructed to refrain from using any force if at all possible. Indeed, in Israel the military is being criticized for failing to adequately prepare its naval personnel to anticipate the attacks on them from the boats, and for being too passive, and too trusting, in its approach to the flotilla.

 

Actually, they were within the law to use weapons against the Israelis. It was international waters and legally boarding their ships was an act of piracy. The people on the flotilla had no weapons. There were knives because people on ships need to cook and knives are needed for that. There were powertools because powertools are one of the things Israelis dont allow into Gaza as well as because powertools are needed on ships. They cut rods for construction into crude weapons when they saw their ships were about to be boarded in international waters.

 

This is a quote from international law

 

Neutral merchant vessels

 

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

 

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

 

They were trying to breach the blockade and refused to stop. So Israel had the right to sop and search them

 

As for the evidence that certain individuals of those responsible for orchestrating this tragedy are linked to Al Qaeda and other representatives of the worst forces on the planet, the next days will likely yield more information.

 

This was never proved. The next days yielded that they were in fact only activists.

 

They knew they had terrorist connection but they didn't know to where, later IHH Terrorist Ties Confirmed Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/1991/ihh-terrorist-ties-confirmed

 

Perhaps Israel should stop committing gross violations of human rights and public opinion towards it will change.

 

Perhaps Palestinians should using terrorism to kill Jews in Israel.

[Napalm]

Fact 1: The Gaza Strip is an armed camp, ruled with an iron fist by a repressive Hamas regime that has not only repeatedly pledged itself to the annihilation of Israel and the torpedoing of any prospects for Middle East peace, but has made good on its pledges by firing approximately 10,000 missiles, rockets, and mortar bombs at Israeli civilians over the past several years for the express purpose of killing or wounding those civilians or, at a minimum, terrifying them.

 

Palestinians want to live peacefully, the blockade on their city prevents them from doing so. They fight because they want freedom from the tyranny of the Israeli blockade.

 

If they really want peace how those firing rockets at Israel's civilian promote peace? You seem to always avoid admitting that they do fire rockets at Israel civilians. Or how about the murder of a teenager on the way back from school but died at the hand of terrorism. Those this sound like they really want peace?

 

For peace to be had first they need to get back their lands that were taken away from them.

 

 

It looks to me like it was planned, sound like peaceful activists to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXDev2wXVA&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I6XL2pzguE&feature=player_embedded

Slingshots, pipes and knives. Do you seriously believe they were planning an attack on the IDF with that?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Couldn't help noticing that for the second or perhaps even third time on this thread you've conveniently ignored my question. It's fine, really - if you want spend your life wearing rose tinted glasses don't be amazed when others see the world in technicolour.