Jiblix and Ken Genosis Demodded Over Speaking Out

[Kirschen]

Disappointing Ken got the treatment too. I knew who he was before they added more and more fmods that made the position more trivial. If he can get demodded for speaking out, I don't think he will be the last. :mellow:

[Carl]

Its smart buisness

 

How is i t a good buisness model for jagex to basically discourage people from accepting modship by saying you must spout the party line and not get a pay check for it?

 

First it makes people lose respect for the current p and f mods because now they are basically drones serving jagex and can't have an opinion of their own.

 

 

But they do have opinions, and places to voice them.

[Crossed_Body]

But they do have opinions, and places to voice them.

As long as us non-mod plebeians don't hear them, correct?

[Laikrob]

Mmm.. That's what a whistle blowe does. Ppl like jib and ken were probably the most dedicated and loyal ppl to jagex. Ken had almost 8k posts and probably volunteered huge amount of times modding for jagex. They loved runescape and wanted the game to succeed like so many of us. And this is how jagex repays them?

 

Then they should have walked away instead of demanding action be taken against Jagex that would damage the image of the business to potential customers (I really I don't want to get into this again). Instead of tearing apart the sinking ship, jump.

 

And you don't care?

 

I couldn't give a shit. And this is why:-

1. Mod status is nothing. NOTHING.

2. [argument about BUSINESS IMAGE PROTECTION]

3. Jiblix especially (considering this Ken bloke has only just be ousted, who knows) insighted people and made the most of his martyrdom in an attempt to further damage Runescape/Jagex. Now, if he really was dedicated and loyal, he wouldn't have.

 

Where's your morality man?

 

Ignoring the fact that morality has absolutely nothing to do with it, my morality isn't even remotely in question here anyway. I'm not the one making the decision, I'm the one standing here and - stupidly mind you - expecting people to calm down and think for a moment "hey, maybe, as a business, they only want people representing them who are spouting pro-Jagex sentiment, and that as soon as they turn to negativity, we willk have to silence them". Now, obviously they can't be silenced, so instead, they move to sever ties with the individual. It's SMART BUSINESS.

 

[more business protection here]

Amen.

 

However much I agree or disagree with the update, I find the way the pmod has presented its opinions a very counter productive one.

 

To transfer it to my own situation, I would not (as former Tip.It staff, not just when I was a part of it) publically criticise - and certainly not flame! - Tip.It staff or the site/forum. Does this mean I always agree with everything? Not really, but I either shut up, or give my input out of public.

Two reasons for this:

1) It is damaging for Tip.It's image if former or especially current staff disagrees on essential decisions in public - it simply creates insecurity.

2) Most of the times there are good reasons behind changes or updates, and even though there aren't always time to explain all the reasons, most changes are resulsts of extensive discussions.

[BiJay]

Another fmod, ken genosis, demodded today for speaking out against jagex. Will update with more details as I find them.

 

Update: looks like they've unhidden the thread for now but the mod color is gone...

 

[qfc]16-17-712-63379987[/qfc]

I like how all german fmods spoke against this hiscore bullshit and they are still green. The english mod team seems weird.

I pray for the safety of those german mods lol. Really I do.

The problem is if they unmod them they have no fmods anymore in the german forums. They all know each other and if something like Jiblix/Ken Genosis would happen to one german fmod the other fmods would give up their modship without any doubt. I'm surprised nothing like that happens in the english forums but I guess they are just too many to act together.

[Sly_Wizard]

"Jagex, I disagree with your decision to make the hiscores P@P because <x>."-- Okay.

"Jagex, you mentally deficient troglodytes. You can suck my balls!"-- Not okay.

 

So the above is a bit of hyperbole but, I read a couple of Ken's posts and he's just being a whiney [cabbage]. His posts are closer to the latter than the former. I'm pretty sure he didn't get modded for disagreeing with the fact that Jagex is choosing to make hiscores P2P, but rather for the complete lack of tact he displayed in voicing his opinion. Surely, he can't be all that surprised he got demodded? I've been banned for less, numerous times.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

Yes, Ken should've used the tool to that he as a Fmod posseses, contact Jagex, be completely ignored, and gone back to his hole.

-Jagex

[Carl]

Yes, Ken should've used the tool to that he as a Fmod posseses, contact Jagex, be completely ignored, and gone back to his hole.

-Jagex

 

If you wish to believe that's how things work, fine. :thumbup: More power to you.

[pal2002]

Yes, Ken should've used the tool to that he as a Fmod posseses, contact Jagex, be completely ignored, and gone back to his hole.

-Jagex

 

If you wish to believe that's how things work, fine. :thumbup: More power to you.

If you have another account, by all means offer it. Otherwise, this would be the only logical answer.

[The Observer]

Yes, Ken should've used the tool to that he as a Fmod posseses, contact Jagex, be completely ignored, and gone back to his hole.

-Jagex

 

If you wish to believe that's how things work, fine. :thumbup: More power to you.

If you have another account, by all means offer it. Otherwise, this would be the only logical answer.

 

To be fair, if a change happened on these forums that I don't necessarily agree with, I would express those concerns in a more private manner. Jagex has the same idea. However the problem lies with their attitude on it all. I'm sure Jagex is listening to its players (and the message has been brought across), but trying to change their mind is a different story. Once they release an update, you can pretty much forget about them reversing it. Would I suggest giving up? No, but that's how it works most of the time.

 

It's only natural that people have different opinions about things, but what is really unfortunate is that we cannot see what they are doing behind closed doors. In other words, we cannot view the PMod/FMod forums, so we cannot properly judge if they agree to the updates or not. It's been said that the amount of threads in there are a lot different from what's seen in the public eye.

[quitthegame]

It's only natural that people have different opinions about things, but what is really unfortunate is that we cannot see what they are doing behind closed doors. In other words, we cannot view the PMod/FMod forums, so we cannot properly judge if they agree to the updates or not. It's been said that the amount of threads in there are a lot different from what's seen in the public eye.

 

Can I install a camera in your bedroom? You know, so I can see what you're doing behind closed doors. ~_~

 

No offense intended, but I can't agree that it's unfortunate that people can't see through closed doors.

[Bxpprod]

 

How is i t a good buisness model for jagex to basically discourage people from accepting modship by saying you must spout the party line and not get a pay check for it?

 

First it makes people lose respect for the current p and f mods because now they are basically drones serving jagex and can't have an opinion of their own.

 

Removing reps who talk down about the game. Sure, if you want to be Joe Bloe mr no-crown player going for Jagex's Jugular (any number of people in this thread, lets face it) over every (percieved) bad decision, FINE. But to come out with the F-Mod/P-Mod status, and deliver nothing but bad press, there are consequences. No one is saying "don't have an opinion", they are saying, if you have an opinion like this, discuss it in a means that does not involve the crown, because while you have that crown, you are represent Jagex.

 

And it discourages people who actually want to improve the game from joining because now they can't voice their concerns. All that is left now are the attention [bleeps] who just want the crown as a status symbol and will most likly abuse their power.

 

Then jagex will lose their free police service and actually have to spend money on real mods to do it.

 

Getting rid of volunteers (who, lets face it, are easily replacable when it comes to modship on RS) who come out and denounce Jagex using mod-status as a tool, are shown to be representatives of the game, who are talking DOWN about it. Bad publicity does not help the cause (well, we say all publicity is good publicity, but lets face it, that's a load of crap). Now, if you want to get into the whole "HE'S NOT A REPRESENTATIVE" and "VOLUNTEERS DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW PARTY LINE THEY ARENT PAID" debates, go back in the thread.

 

How many mods do we have that either:-

a) Voice their distain in a more constructive way

b) Flame jagex on a different account

or,

c) Don't mind the updates

 

So, I guess, all that's left are the attention [bleep]?

[The Observer]

It's only natural that people have different opinions about things, but what is really unfortunate is that we cannot see what they are doing behind closed doors. In other words, we cannot view the PMod/FMod forums, so we cannot properly judge if they agree to the updates or not. It's been said that the amount of threads in there are a lot different from what's seen in the public eye.

 

Can I install a camera in your bedroom? You know, so I can see what you're doing behind closed doors. ~_~

 

No offense intended, but I can't agree that it's unfortunate that people can't see through closed doors.

 

I mean it's unfortunate in the sense that the community ends up getting a different idea of the PMod/FMod community compared to what they actually think. :P I'm not saying it would be ideal for the community to see what is going on in there (they're private for a reason).

[Formerly_Deathknell]

Yes, Ken should've used the tool to that he as a Fmod posseses, contact Jagex, be completely ignored, and gone back to his hole.

-Jagex

 

If you wish to believe that's how things work, fine. :thumbup: More power to you.

If you have another account, by all means offer it. Otherwise, this would be the only logical answer.

 

To be fair, if a change happened on these forums that I don't necessarily agree with, I would express those concerns in a more private manner. Jagex has the same idea. However the problem lies with their attitude on it all. I'm sure Jagex is listening to its players (and the message has been brought across), but trying to change their mind is a different story. Once they release an update, you can pretty much forget about them reversing it. Would I suggest giving up? No, but that's how it works most of the time.

 

It's only natural that people have different opinions about things, but what is really unfortunate is that we cannot see what they are doing behind closed doors. In other words, we cannot view the PMod/FMod forums, so we cannot properly judge if they agree to the updates or not. It's been said that the amount of threads in there are a lot different from what's seen in the public eye.

 

I'd definitely say that would be the polite thing to do, but if they chose to take it out in the open they shouldn't be punished for it. Also, on Tip you can't actually get a hold of someone in a timely manner and get an honest response. At Jagex... well I don't think it works the same way. :x

[Carl]

 

I'd definitely say that would be the polite thing to do, but if they chose to take it out in the open they shouldn't be punished for it. Also, on Tip you can't actually get a hold of someone in a timely manner and get an honest response. At Jagex... well I don't think it works the same way. :x

 

... :wall: You just don't get it.

 

Anyway, to quote something (not just directed at the above post)

 

All moderators can have their own opinions and we are more than happy for them to express them. In fact, we have given the moderators their own feedback forum so they have somewhere do this. Let me post what the advice we give moderators about posting their opinions, it may help you to understand where we are coming from.

 

There has been a lot of talk recently about what moderators can and can't say publicly and I hope that this thread and the subsequent dialogue will help make it clear in your minds what we are trying to achieve and why.

 

Our ultimate aim is to create a game which people enjoy playing. Part of that enjoyment comes from the community they play with everyday and both you and us can impact on that environment every day.

 

Whether we intended it or not, it is a fact that you can influence the community more than most regular players, whether on the forums or in game.

 

Ideally, we'd love every single one of you to spend all of your time being really nice to everyone you meet and doing whatever they want... within reason of course. But, we are realistic, we know that you are players and want to play the game or just chill with your friends which is why we have never asked, or ever will ask, you to do that.

 

However, it is true to say that you have the ability to negatively impact the community as well as positively impact it. The problem with negatively impacting the community is that not only does the community go to a worse place, but the pressure put upon the other moderators is higher. If one mod is saying that "Jagex are thieves" anyone seeing them is going to be less inclined to listen to another mod trying to explain the situation to them or stop them from doing something dangerous.

 

Disagreeing with us is absolutely fine, but you should think about how the community will feel reading what you have typed in. In most cases if we see something that we think will be damaging to the community we can have a chat with you and show you what we mean in more detail. However, there is a big difference between disagreeing with us and either publicly ranting against Jagex as a moderator or inciting the community to raise arms against us.

 

A great example that you may have seen used is that if someone who volunteers to help out in a charity shop starts telling people who come in not to buy things because the charity behind it all just wastes their money anyway, the charity would pretty soon ask that person to no longer volunteer to help out in their shop as their actions are causing damage to the overall aims of the charity. However, the individual would be free to stand outside the shop and air their views to anyone in the street who may choose to listen

Mat.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

 

I'd definitely say that would be the polite thing to do, but if they chose to take it out in the open they shouldn't be punished for it. Also, on Tip you can't actually get a hold of someone in a timely manner and get an honest response. At Jagex... well I don't think it works the same way. :x

 

... :wall: You just don't get it.

 

Anyway, to quote something (not just directed at the above post)

 

[hide]

All moderators can have their own opinions and we are more than happy for them to express them. In fact, we have given the moderators their own feedback forum so they have somewhere do this. Let me post what the advice we give moderators about posting their opinions, it may help you to understand where we are coming from.

 

There has been a lot of talk recently about what moderators can and can't say publicly and I hope that this thread and the subsequent dialogue will help make it clear in your minds what we are trying to achieve and why.

 

Our ultimate aim is to create a game which people enjoy playing. Part of that enjoyment comes from the community they play with everyday and both you and us can impact on that environment every day.

 

Whether we intended it or not, it is a fact that you can influence the community more than most regular players, whether on the forums or in game.

 

Ideally, we'd love every single one of you to spend all of your time being really nice to everyone you meet and doing whatever they want... within reason of course. But, we are realistic, we know that you are players and want to play the game or just chill with your friends which is why we have never asked, or ever will ask, you to do that.

 

However, it is true to say that you have the ability to negatively impact the community as well as positively impact it. The problem with negatively impacting the community is that not only does the community go to a worse place, but the pressure put upon the other moderators is higher. If one mod is saying that "Jagex are thieves" anyone seeing them is going to be less inclined to listen to another mod trying to explain the situation to them or stop them from doing something dangerous.

 

Disagreeing with us is absolutely fine, but you should think about how the community will feel reading what you have typed in. In most cases if we see something that we think will be damaging to the community we can have a chat with you and show you what we mean in more detail. However, there is a big difference between disagreeing with us and either publicly ranting against Jagex as a moderator or inciting the community to raise arms against us.

 

A great example that you may have seen used is that if someone who volunteers to help out in a charity shop starts telling people who come in not to buy things because the charity behind it all just wastes their money anyway, the charity would pretty soon ask that person to no longer volunteer to help out in their shop as their actions are causing damage to the overall aims of the charity. However, the individual would be free to stand outside the shop and air their views to anyone in the street who may choose to listen

Mat.

[/hide]

 

Okay, I'll accept that for Ken, but not for Jibby. Never. Jibby criticized them on a site that has no officiall affiliation with Jagex. That right there was some straight up bullshit. What if they criticized them on Tip? Maybe it a Times article? Would you have an issue for what they say on here?

 

That's why I no longer have my real RSN name on here. I'm not gonna catch any backlash over there for what I say here.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I don't want to quote anything, so I'll just blurt it out here.

 

@Carl, I've taken what Mod Mat K said and truth be told, he's right - Moderators of any sort shouldn't be going around and making Jagex look bad on Jagex's own forums. However, retaliation against those that "speak their mind" in that position implies two things:

 

- You're not permitted to have a public opinion outside of the company line, and

- The community automatically assumes that all Moderators are on Jagex's side, at all times.

 

Here's the thing. As a moderator, I felt obligated to the community I came from. I had their best interests at heart, and I would try my best to communicate that to Jagex.

 

The biggest problem with Jagex's communication and feedback channels is that it works a bit like /dev/null on UNIX devices - you can put stuff in, but you don't get stuff back. There have been times in which this wasn't the case, but those in my tenure were few and very far between.

 

The reason that outbursts like Jiblix and now Ken Genosis happen is simple - communication breakdown. Jagex has failed to properly prop-up their own volunteers, and support them when their concerns have come through. So you get a situation like this.

 

The main reason that I side against Jagex in these is that they have refused to change their ways, and actually communicate with their own volunteers. It's more or less been the atmosphere of, 'Toe the line or get the hell out', and we're all free-spirited human beings - Jagex does stupid stuff that we have to make them aware of. If the person, regardless of being in some elevated position or not, cannot feel a liberty to air these grievances and have them heard, then there's a major problem.

 

What Jagex wants to do is to foster an air of camaraderie. This is only natural; you're working with JMods and other volunteers, so you all want to (or should) feel like you're on the same page, and heading the same direction. That hasn't happened, so you get situations like this.

 

I'm not opposed to having Moderators only air their grievances out in a private manner, but when that fails, just keeping your mouth shut is the worst thing that could be done. Jagex's public behavior (not their private, since I haven't seen that side of the fence in six months) has led me to believe that they'd rather you keep your mouth shut.

 

And no, not everyone likes that.

 

So...either communication internally improves (I mean like a day vs. night difference), or you'll get the same old song and dance. It really doesn't matter if Jagex has the right to, is obligated to, or is in the right when they come down against a Moderator of any sort when they disagree publicly - as long as distrust between the community of volunteers and Jagex remains, you'll always get this to happen. Cracking down just makes you look like a jerkass, even if you're right.

 

[EDIT] Talking on a site not related to RuneScape shouldn't incur any penalties, either. I'm not shy about my opinion of Jagex, either positive or negative, and I'll be damned if they want to take action on me in a domain they can't control.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

I say at the next Runefest we get together and tar and feather MMG. :thumbsup:

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I say at the next Runefest we get together and tar and feather MMG. :thumbsup:

 

If I actually cared enough to meet the guy face-to-face, I'd prefer to give him a choice lecture on customer service and code reuse, and ask him to comp my plane fare. </offtopic>

[Formerly_Deathknell]

I say at the next Runefest we get together and tar and feather MMG. :thumbsup:

 

If I actually cared enough to meet the guy face-to-face, I'd prefer to give him a choice lecture on customer service and code reuse, and ask him to comp my plane fare. </offtopic>

 

Probably should try and do that before we tar and feather him. Save yourself an awkward conversation. ;)

[Omali]

Self promotion? Don't mind if I do.

http://mmofallout.com/2011/04/13/runescape-no-we-dont-vet-our-moderators/

 

Ive been involved in more player moderator/volunteer positions with online games than I can count, and one aspect that has always remained the same is the expectation of involvement. If a player asks for help and I ignore them, I stood to be fired. If there was a player cheating and I did nothing about it, I stood to be fired. If a player was harassing other players, and I didnt mute him, I stood to be fired. If I acted like an idiot, or made false statements, I stood to be fired. Just because I wasnt getting paid, didnt mean I didnt have some expectation of reliability and professionalism.

 

Cue in Runescape, where Ive always said Jagex reads their community about as well as I can read a book sitting in a chair sculpted out of lava. Jagex has taken the laid back approach of well you are just players so if you dont want to help others, you dont have to. As expected, this has simply lead to a large number of moderators who accept the position just for the fancy crown next to their name in chat, or simply to mute people they dont like (I should note that the latter generally do not last long as moderators).

 

While Jagex does a decent job of culling corrupt moderators, what they should be focusing on is the indifference aspect. If a moderator is present when a player is breaking the rules, and does not report them, they should be removed. Moderators who are inactive for a period of time should also be removed. I specifically left out answering questions because with how many players are on at any given time, getting an answer from players should not be difficult.

 

I am not suggesting that player moderators should be forced to go hunting for rule breakers, but rather just deal with them as they appear. I agree with the sentiment that player moderators are just players, but not to the extent that they can just ignore a problem as a normal player might. And if you dont want to enforce the rules when you see them being broken, there is also a simple answer: Dont accept the invitation when you receive it.

 

Its really not that difficult.

 

Emphasis on the first paragraph.

[Carl]

 

Okay, I'll accept that for Ken, but not for Jibby. Never. Jibby criticized them on a site that has no officiall affiliation with Jagex. That right there was some straight up bullshit. What if they criticized them on Tip? Maybe it a Times article? Would you have an issue for what they say on here?

 

That's why I no longer have my real RSN name on here. I'm not gonna catch any backlash over there for what I say here.

 

When growing up in school, there was one specific talk we were all given.

 

If you want to drink, or smoke -- or even fight; fine. You're going to do it, you're human. But out of respect for those who you represent, and your peers, don't do it while you are representing the school (We wore uniform).

 

If you're wearing the crown and bad mouthing them, no matter where, you deserve to be stopped. You're risking the image of every other Moderator. Resign your voluntary position if you no longer want to represent them - or choose to speak badly about them. No-one forces people to remain as a Moderator.

 

I don't want to quote anything, so I'll just blurt it out here.

 

@Carl, I've taken what Mod Mat K said and truth be told, he's right - Moderators of any sort shouldn't be going around and making Jagex look bad on Jagex's own forums. However, retaliation against those that "speak their mind" in that position implies two things:

 

- You're not permitted to have a public opinion outside of the company line, and

- The community automatically assumes that all Moderators are on Jagex's side, at all times.

 

Well, if you want to shout out your negative opinion, resign your position before you do so. Don't ruin the image of many because you don't want to provide feedback the same way as they do. That's selfish and simply attention-seeking.

 

I'm not opposed to having Moderators only air their grievances out in a private manner, but when that fails, just keeping your mouth shut is the worst thing that could be done. Jagex's public behavior (not their private, since I haven't seen that side of the fence in six months) has led me to believe that they'd rather you keep your mouth shut.

 

A lot has changed in 6 months. I'd love to discuss every point in full, but that's not an option.

 

[EDIT] Talking on a site not related to RuneScape shouldn't incur any penalties, either. I'm not shy about my opinion of Jagex, either positive or negative, and I'll be damned if they want to take action on me in a domain they can't control.

I've already commented on that above.

 

Omali: I understand what you're saying, but in RuneScape each player has their own set of tools. You have a Report Abuse button and an ignore list. It's not like Pmods are the only method of reporting people.

[Bxpprod]

[EDIT] Talking on a site not related to RuneScape shouldn't incur any penalties, either. I'm not shy about my opinion of Jagex, either positive or negative, and I'll be damned if they want to take action on me in a domain they can't control.

 

This has been done to death. Read the thread.

[Assume Nothing]

It's rather difficult to criticize JaGex's decision of censorship if we don't even know what was censored. On the basis of the title alone, it seems more likely that the opinion may have been poorly voiced/justified ['The Ultimate Insult']

 

I don't think what Jiblix did deserved removal of modship though.

[tripsis]

If Jagex really do explicitly tell their moderators (like somewhere in the mod forums) that any negative opinions should be voiced in private in the moderator forums, then I understand why these people were demodded. However, I'm someone of the opinion that everyone deserves at least one warning before action is taken. So assuming that Ken had never received any warnings, I think that would have been a more appropriate action than immediately demodding him. But I guess there are a lot of unknown variables here.