I don't know that they felt it wasn't their job, but it certainly wasn't effective. On more than one occasion I saw a Pmod mute all the spammers in the G.E. only to have new ones pop back up one by one until within 5 minutes it was like nothing had happened.

I did this several times. Did you know that they'll temporarily remove Pmod's mute ability if they do too many mutes in a certain period? It really gets in the way when there are more spammers than the limit allows, as was the case on virtually every free world. :razz:

 

I'd think a lot of pmods gave up because it simply wasn't feasable after a certain point: Mute spammers, lose mute ability within minutes, soon more spammers than you started with show up.

The point was; How effective was that rule?

 

It's pretty effective actually. People still get mutes and offenses for spamming.

 

You can't compare the hoards of bots to this, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

I was referring to legitimate players who spammed. I just don't think there's any real benefit in the prohibition of dicing-esque games, and if anything - it limits consumer choice and harms those who decide to partake in the more shady, unregulated forms of dicing because of the imposed regulations.

I was referring to legitimate players who spammed.

 

That's a really bad comparison then. Citing a rule that's effectively enforced as a reason to not make gambling against the rules....>_>'

 

I'm sensing a trend here. People are trying so hard to legitimize these activities, saying "well people are stupid and they deserve to lose their cash." Or they say, "well gambling in a game isn't addictive". Saying that the rules aren't effectively enforced, and that it's "the consumer's choice"...I'm flabbergasted. If people want gambling in their games so badly, why aren't they playing a different sort of game?

 

I get that people have their own opinions but I don't understand how people can actively want to protect those flawed systems...

I don't think you've interpreted my point correctly.

 

I'm suggesting that prohibiting player gambling is likely to be ineffective in reducing gambling as the fear of punishment is simply outweighed by the potential reward (it's a calculated risk). I'm suggesting that the enforcability of the rule would be moot.

 

I'm not suggesting that gambling isn't addictive - it is addictive, but I feel the slippery slope argument pops up when it's suggested that gambling gold pieces on RuneScape would lead to gambling addictions in real life to be a little far-fetched. It's not comparable to real gambling (online or otherwise) on the basis of the distinction in purpose - gambling on RuneScape is for leisure, whereas gambling in real life is for the potential to accumulate real winnings to pay rent, buy things, etc. (leisure takes a significantly smaller role here)

 

I don't think it's a fair point to suggest that we're (or in this case, I'm) trying to legitimize the activity, it's simply arguing against a position that seems irrational and potentially more harmful than beneficial (law of unintended consequences).

I understand your points just fine, I just think they're completely incorrect. If you're saying gambling is addictive, then that is the bottom line. A person will choose what he does in accordance with his own personal attributes. Tell me that you don't know anyone who isn't addicted to staking, that you never read about people repeatedly getting cleaned and making poor judgement calls because they 'love' staking, and I'll call you a liar. Saying that a gambling activity isn't similar to gambling elsewhere just because it's in an MMO and using it as your defeating counterpoint is thoughtless--if you read any other post about it, you'd know it's not about the currency (real or fake) gained, it's about the win.

 

I'm not proposing that they remove every single thing that resembles gambling from the game. That's like saying because scamming exists they should remove all of trade. But there are safer ways to manage them, and leaving ways where people can be taken advantage so easily is ridiculous. Almost as stating the 'law of unintended consequences' as a way to sit back on your laurels and do nothing because it MIGHT harm people. (Let's not even get into how unlikely that would happen, that's a separate issue...)

The questions in debate:

 

'Should dicing be prohibited'

 

Answer: Yes

Premise: It allows for scamming, and it's addictive (assumed to be a bad thing, which I don't disagree with)

 

Counterpoint: 'It may be ineffective'

Premise: 'It doesn't address the issue at hand, and it's too easy to circumvent'

 

I'm not seeing the problem here.

 

The issues at hand doesn't lie within the fact that it's a form of gambling. It's the fact that is has disputable potential for scamming and potential for developing an unhealthy addiction. I don't think prohibition would reduce the scamming, because if it were the naive who were 'suckered in', then making it a rule wouldn't be effective in reducing the unhealthy aspects of participation in the first place.

 

The inference drawn about my claim that there may be unintended consequences is not representative of my position - I'm simply illustrating why there may be a problem with the implementation of the proposal, it's not the sole reason that I defend my position.

 

I think there's better ways of handling these issues, such as the provision of a legal structure that allows players to partake in escrow forms of gambling (therefore can't be scammed), and to provide support for those who need help with understanding and overcoming a gambling addiction. I believe it's stronger than your proposal because it doesn't allow the emergence of black-market gambling (irc), address the issue of the non-treatment of addiction victims.

 

Please tell me though; Why prohibition, if there's a better alternative? If it's not better, then I'd see your point.

The questions in debate:

 

'Should dicing be prohibited'

 

Answer: Yes

Premise: It allows for scamming, and it's addictive (assumed to be a bad thing, which I don't disagree with)

 

Counterpoint: 'It may be ineffective'

Premise: 'It doesn't address the issue at hand, and it's too easy to circumvent'

 

If the issue dicing/flower game/horse game, and prohibiting it stops those activities, then it does address it. So certainly there's a problem there. Break it down with me...

 

If we're going to address the core issues caused by gambling activities, then let's do it and stick with it. Trust trading, and addiction. We agree addiction isn't their job to handle. MMO's themselves can be addictive, and they're certainly not going to shut them down. They can do more to promote awareness, and that's a fair compromise. We can agree that addicts will find a way to get their fix, be it in another mmo, another method of gambling, etc etc. So banning gambling isn't effective (which I stated and agreed to several posts before, which I'm sure you read.) The other component that has made gambling such an issue is trust trading. Giving money with no collateral hoping to get a bigger pay-out. This is easier to fix. Trust trading is where the scamming aspect of gambling comes into play.

 

Stop the methods that are being abused right, ie hotfixes like these, and we're only covering band-aids on the problem. Does that mean they should stop doing that? Certainly not. Trust trading will always have the potential to occur by virtue of free trade. Can't get around that. But by making trust trading against the rules, we can report those who are trying to keep it going. Keeping institutions where these things are monitored, like the duel arena, is helpful in limiting scamming. Without the duel arena, the only alternative would be single combat wilderness, which has obvious problems. But if they make a 'casino', they would hit laws. So, there is no happy medium there...they're either stopping the unsupported systems (ie not institutions like DA, rat pits, betting on matches, flower game, and so on) or they do nothing. And so long as there's a large potential to hurt other players, Jagex has had a history of trying to correct those problems. (Remember the leaf-bladed spear scam?) And why shouldn't they? Protecting their customers protects their bottom line. Reverting that precedence, that practice, isn't smart for their bottom line or customer satisfaction.

 

So...yeah. Forgive me if I don't agree with your argument, since there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary and more well formed arguments against your position--I'd be lying if I said these were original to me, better people than me have expressed the same concerns.

Considering Jagex's current policy of never compensating people for things they lost through either the game's fault or a scammer, combined with the infrequency at which they will actually stop any scammers in the first place, there's pretty much no protection at all from the actual threat, just the slim chance that once the damage is done, they'll do their best to sweep the problem under the rug and act like nothing is happening.

 

While I appreciate your desire to stick to the moral high ground by continuing to employ largely ineffective methods to a problem that will never be solved, perhaps the best course of action is to at least find out for sure if the laws would prohibit doing what Jagex already claims it's doing with all of the other "sanctioned" forms of gambling, which is to keep these things secure, although that places the burden of said responsibility on Jagex instead of the player...it's not clear which party you would approve of to take that on.

You can never solve any type of rule-breaking. But we still try. So I'm sure while I'm sticking to the moral highground with my (and others) "ineffectual methods", I would rather do that then sit back on my laurels being apathetic about the whole situation, mocking those who want to see efforts to limiting the damage done, offering nothing to the table other than negativity. Bring on the casinos, the be all end all of this issue!

Your refusal of the one solution ("legalize it", according to certain rights advocates) that has been largely more effective than say, the complete prohibition of alcohol or elimination of free trade, doesn't make the application of the currently proven to be ineffective methods more useful.

My "refusal"? No. They can't implement it. If they were able to, I'd be for it. Like I said, it works with the duel arena. I do so love people throwing prohibition into the mix as if people were denying the fact that people find workarounds.

 

It's kind of frustrating when words are put in your mouth.

Since we're only speculating on the legality of such a solution, I refuse to count it out until we can confirm that it would not be an option.

 

Until then, chasing the rats out of each nest until they burrow deeper into harder to police areas, which subsequently increases the risk that these activities are more likely to cause harm since they become less public, until it becomes the domain of gold farmers using it as an avenue to launder their merchandise, is probably not something I would want to pursue.

 

Seeing as gold is primarily a means to overcome otherwise massive time costs for being able to use the more enjoyable activities of the game, I will always advocate a push towards lessening its influence over everything, while not thinking "we need to offset this change by building in purely arbitrary time-based barriers which add nothing to the experience".

 

I would find this approach a bit better than London's "ban guns, cause massive increase in knife violence due to basic misunderstanding of how violence works" methodology.

Since we're only speculating on the legality of such a solution, I refuse to count it out until we can confirm that it would not be an option.

 

 

Fair enough. Now if only the times could get an interview with a member of Community Management to get their (and Jagex) opinions XD

You can never solve any type of rule-breaking. But we still try. So I'm sure while I'm sticking to the moral highground with my (and others) "ineffectual methods", I would rather do that then sit back on my laurels being apathetic about the whole situation, mocking those who want to see efforts to limiting the damage done, offering nothing to the table other than negativity. Bring on the casinos, the be all end all of this issue!

 

You've misrepresented my position. Congratulations.

You've misrepresented my position. Congratulations.

 

It was directed at Stri, not you. "Congratulations."

You've misrepresented my position. Congratulations.

 

It was directed at Stri, not you. "Congratulations."

 

Could you quote where he explicitly states that JaGex ought to implement casinos, and where he states that it's the 'be all end all of this issue'? You're clearly attempting to undermine his argument by attempting to ridicule him.

Read a story where a journalist took a trip to the zoo. On a tour bus, they passed by the lion where it was laying on the rock which made for some good camera shots. The journalist told the tour guide 'Guess we're lucky the lion decided to rest up there instead of inside the cave'. The tour guide said sarcasticly 'Yeah, lucky'. Turns out the zoo heats up the rock when it's cool outside and cools down that rock when it's warm. The lion learns that's the best spot in the his area to be.

 

Why bring it up? Jagex needs to reduce this prohibition approach to its game and the players. The whole "You must not do this in the game, even though we're not capable of making the game in a way to stop you" just means you get random enforcement of rules. Except in extreme cases (actions that break real world laws such as death threats or soliciting), if Jagex can't prevent your character via programming, it really shouldn't make it a reportable or bannable offense.

 

Jagex did the right thing with respect to dicing. It didn't say "Dicing is illegal, do it and we'll ban you if we catch you". Instead they removed dice. Problem with people luring others into the wilderness, put up the ditch. Tired of bait and switching and scamming? Put in trade indicators and price guides into the game. Don't like people exploiting a bug that gets them enormous xp and gp? Have a system that detects such things and roll it back.

 

So one way is don't say gambling or trust trading is illegal and reportable. Change the game so that such activities either cannot happen or are too inconvenient to bother with en masse. Here's one way: Trade limits however anyone on your clan or friend chat for more than one week has unlimited trades. Death drops and other methods of gambling Jagex provides such as Conquest are not restricted by this. Trading with strangers become a nuissance and merchanting dies, but gambling all but dies too.

Logdotzip...please think more rationally about what you just wrote. When a person becomes addicted to gambling online with gp, which do you think is a more likely outcome: That they realize that they don't like losing and they don't gamble, or that they get used to gambling and continue to do it, eventually expanding from gp to money in real life.

 

That's exactly what a psychological addiction is...even if it doesn't make sense to a non-gambler, a gambler will get a rush every time they win, and continue to gamble no matter how much they lose because of that small high they get upon victory.

 

I just don't understand why the people who lack self control need to ruin the fun for the people that do enjoy gambling.

 

I'll put up hundreds of millions on a whim on RuneScape, but you'd be lucky to see me throw down five bucks at a poker party with my friends.

 

 

Willpower is what the complainers of being cleaned lack. Once again RS needs to be dumbed down for the helpless.

Since we're only speculating on the legality of such a solution, I refuse to count it out until we can confirm that it would not be an option.

 

 

Fair enough. Now if only the times could get an interview with a member of Community Management to get their (and Jagex) opinions XD

 

It was said at Runefest that this would be a lot of trouble regarding the law, which is why they haven't done this(yet). The Jmod(Sorry, I don't remember who it was, I think Mod Roderick but not sure) did not say it was illegal and so this wasn't a design problem but rather a legal problem. I think it's pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing a casino though. Even if they're sure they would not lose at court, they would still have to put up with being sued, they have to pay lawyers, organise their defense etc. - for what? It's simply not worth the risk.

Logdotzip...please think more rationally about what you just wrote. When a person becomes addicted to gambling online with gp, which do you think is a more likely outcome: That they realize that they don't like losing and they don't gamble, or that they get used to gambling and continue to do it, eventually expanding from gp to money in real life.

 

That's exactly what a psychological addiction is...even if it doesn't make sense to a non-gambler, a gambler will get a rush every time they win, and continue to gamble no matter how much they lose because of that small high they get upon victory.

 

I just don't understand why the people who lack self control need to ruin the fun for the people that do enjoy gambling.

 

I'll put up hundreds of millions on a whim on RuneScape, but you'd be lucky to see me throw down five bucks at a poker party with my friends.

 

 

Willpower is what the complainers of being cleaned lack. Once again RS needs to be dumbed down for the helpless.

RSGP is worth real life money though.

It's hilarious looking at the arguments of people downplaying how serious gambling addiction is. It's like hearing someone who doesn't smoke go "just quit, it's really not that hard."

 

It's hard to imagine someone getting addicted to gambling starting on a game like RuneScape, in a "wow, I guess that really can happen" sort of way. It's a bit like imagining your sibling getting addicted to prescription painkillers from taking an NSAID after they twisted their ankle. It's not, truly, since people can get addicted to online gambling and still feel all the strong symptoms of it...but for those who have never dealt with an addict in their home, in their life, through rock bottom to recovery, that's what it seems like.

 

I have a family history of gambling addiction, so I admit it's easier to sympathize for me than others. Still, I suggest the people in this thread take a trip to a casino one day and just walk around. Not the classy areas, like the card tables where the people are generally outward in their ego, I mean the penny/nickle/dime slots. It's like walking into a rat's nest, make eye contact with anyone and it's pretty much an indication that you plan to stab them in the back and steal their machine which was no doubt about to give them the big payout. And just on that factor alone, you will receive some of the dirtiest looks you will ever experience from another person.

 

It's creepy as hell.

Read a story where a journalist took a trip to the zoo. On a tour bus, they passed by the lion where it was laying on the rock which made for some good camera shots. The journalist told the tour guide 'Guess we're lucky the lion decided to rest up there instead of inside the cave'. The tour guide said sarcasticly 'Yeah, lucky'. Turns out the zoo heats up the rock when it's cool outside and cools down that rock when it's warm. The lion learns that's the best spot in the his area to be.

 

Why bring it up? Jagex needs to reduce this prohibition approach to its game and the players. The whole "You must not do this in the game, even though we're not capable of making the game in a way to stop you" just means you get random enforcement of rules. Except in extreme cases (actions that break real world laws such as death threats or soliciting), if Jagex can't prevent your character via programming, it really shouldn't make it a reportable or bannable offense.

 

Jagex did the right thing with respect to dicing. It didn't say "Dicing is illegal, do it and we'll ban you if we catch you". Instead they removed dice. Problem with people luring others into the wilderness, put up the ditch. Tired of bait and switching and scamming? Put in trade indicators and price guides into the game. Don't like people exploiting a bug that gets them enormous xp and gp? Have a system that detects such things and roll it back.

 

So one way is don't say gambling or trust trading is illegal and reportable. Change the game so that such activities either cannot happen or are too inconvenient to bother with en masse. Here's one way: Trade limits however anyone on your clan or friend chat for more than one week has unlimited trades. Death drops and other methods of gambling Jagex provides such as Conquest are not restricted by this. Trading with strangers become a nuissance and merchanting dies, but gambling all but dies too.

 

To stop players from trading and stop merchanting is no good idea. Even if this would stop gambling, it would cause more harm than good to the community, I believe.

Logdotzip...please think more rationally about what you just wrote. When a person becomes addicted to gambling online with gp, which do you think is a more likely outcome: That they realize that they don't like losing and they don't gamble, or that they get used to gambling and continue to do it, eventually expanding from gp to money in real life.

 

That's exactly what a psychological addiction is...even if it doesn't make sense to a non-gambler, a gambler will get a rush every time they win, and continue to gamble no matter how much they lose because of that small high they get upon victory.

 

I just don't understand why the people who lack self control need to ruin the fun for the people that do enjoy gambling.

 

I'll put up hundreds of millions on a whim on RuneScape, but you'd be lucky to see me throw down five bucks at a poker party with my friends.

 

 

Willpower is what the complainers of being cleaned lack. Once again RS needs to be dumbed down for the helpless.

RSGP is worth real life money though.

 

Yes, but not according to Jagex

Logdotzip...please think more rationally about what you just wrote. When a person becomes addicted to gambling online with gp, which do you think is a more likely outcome: That they realize that they don't like losing and they don't gamble, or that they get used to gambling and continue to do it, eventually expanding from gp to money in real life.

 

That's exactly what a psychological addiction is...even if it doesn't make sense to a non-gambler, a gambler will get a rush every time they win, and continue to gamble no matter how much they lose because of that small high they get upon victory.

 

I just don't understand why the people who lack self control need to ruin the fun for the people that do enjoy gambling.

 

I'll put up hundreds of millions on a whim on RuneScape, but you'd be lucky to see me throw down five bucks at a poker party with my friends.

 

 

Willpower is what the complainers of being cleaned lack. Once again RS needs to be dumbed down for the helpless.

RSGP is worth real life money though.

 

Yes, but not according to Jagex

 

It doesn't matter what Jagex says - what the courts think is what matters and Jagex is perfectly aware that this might be a problem, which is why they haven't introduced such a casino yet.