It's important to note that the gambler has no obligation to gamble, and they're not misled about the outcome ratios/payments.

 

WRONG, someone suspectible to addictions isn't capable of making a good, non-emotional stance against gambling. And even worse: children can't make the decision, their brains hasn't fully matured - and by gambling on young age, you activelly create gambling addictions.

Really there's not for nothing a reason why gambling (just like alcoholics) isn't allowed before the age of 18/21. And what's worse: alcohol is a physical addiction, so you're only suspectible to gain addicted when actually drinking alcoholics. Gambling is a psychological addiction, so doing the psychological "gambling" will trigger addictions.

 

 

@blutters, did you just agree with me? I stated that duel arena isn't comparable to gambling like dicing is.

Gambling is addictive because people don't really process the odds. Everytime you win even a small amount you feel good so you keep paying even when you lose. Hosts are preying on people with a psychological addiction.

It's hilarious looking at the arguments of people downplaying how serious gambling addiction is. It's like hearing someone who doesn't smoke go "just quit, it's really not that hard."

It's hilarious looking at the arguments of people downplaying how serious gambling addiction is. It's like hearing someone who doesn't smoke go "just quit, it's really not that hard."

 

It's hard to imagine someone getting addicted to gambling starting on a game like RuneScape, in a "wow, I guess that really can happen" sort of way. It's a bit like imagining your sibling getting addicted to prescription painkillers from taking an NSAID after they twisted their ankle. It's not, truly, since people can get addicted to online gambling and still feel all the strong symptoms of it...but for those who have never dealt with an addict in their home, in their life, through rock bottom to recovery, that's what it seems like.

It's not for nothing in real life only 1 company is allowed to gamble (which is very closely watched by the goverment)

I believe this is not the case in every country. Be careful applying Dutch laws to the entire world, there's a lot of political ideas on gambling to go around ;).

rather them lose their GP than their money, teach them now

It's not for nothing in real life only 1 company is allowed to gamble (which is very closely watched by the goverment)

I believe this is not the case in every country. Be careful applying Dutch laws to the entire world, there's a lot of political ideas on gambling to go around ;).

That's a good point. Here in Canada, gambling is controlled by the provincial governments.

Logdotzip...please think more rationally about what you just wrote. When a person becomes addicted to gambling online with gp, which do you think is a more likely outcome: That they realize that they don't like losing and they don't gamble, or that they get used to gambling and continue to do it, eventually expanding from gp to money in real life.

 

That's exactly what a psychological addiction is...even if it doesn't make sense to a non-gambler, a gambler will get a rush every time they win, and continue to gamble no matter how much they lose because of that small high they get upon victory.

There needs to be data in support of that assertion to be compelling. It's an assumption too strong to make any meaningful argument, since other variables are in play here.

It's like saying chess is gambling cause you may not be equally good each day and you never know if you're as good as you were yesterday untill after the match.

 

I disagree. A game of skill has different circumstances of victory than a game of chance. With Chess, you have utmost control as to the ultimate outcome; with a PRNG, you flat-out don't.

But I feel everyone's missed the point entirely. Perhaps you all play RS so casually that you don't consider it to have an atmosphere. Just like bots (I feel like I've said this before about them, actually), dicers (or what have you) denigrate the game into something shallow that it was never meant to be and ruin the atmosphere. RuneScape was never intended to be a casino, and for that matter I find it incredibly ridiculous you can make more money by cheating naive people out of their belongings than by actually playing the game. This leans far more towards exploitation than emergent gameplay.

 

Well put., and I totally agree.

 

There is a reason that the Duel Arena and Conquest (who even plays that, much less gambles in it?) are perfectly acceptable while dicing is not: They fit within the game, but more than that, they're isolated. If people want to fight and bet money on the outcome, they know where to go, and they have a specific place to do it at. Dicing can happen anywhere, but most obviously at highly populated hubs like the Grand Exchange. People who want nothing to do with it can't avoid it like they can with staking, and it's not a pretty sight anyway. Giving dicers (using this as generic term for all un-anchored gamblers) a specific place where dice bags, flowers, etc behaved normally wouldn't work either, at least not without any official game constraints. For one (out of a myriad of problems) there are still autoadvertisers and you could expect a ton more to spring up if the natural exposure dicers have were to be negated by forcing them to congegrate in a certain location. However, I should expect that if dicers had no method of advertisement, the entire system would eventually crumble. This is because, as I said already, dice hosts rely on the constant saturation of curious and naive individuals (who individually don't have a lot of money). One could liken dicing hosts, rather ironically, to parasites: they need a constant influx of hosts (the naive) because they quickly kill (bankrupt) them off. If quarantined, they would eventually run out of hosts and die. This is, of course, a pointless thought to entertain because it's less than likely that JaGEx would ever create a quarantine zone for this to happen.

 

Here's where I don't quite jive with your logic. Simply because it's out of sight doesn't mean that there isn't any sort of problem with the Duel Arena/Conquest. Yes, they're isolated, and they're out of the way, and for the vast majority of players, the very existence of it doesn't matter much. But, if dicers moved upstairs/downstairs in a discrete building or pub in RuneScape, you would essentially have a similar scenario - the gambling is isolated. Of course, just playing dice for GP doesn't fit well within the game (which is the stronger of your points), but that implies it's a policy problem, not a content problem. (This means simply making it against the rules would abate/solve much of the problem.)

 

 

It's important to note that the gambler has no obligation to gamble, and they're not misled about the outcome ratios/payments.

 

WRONG, someone suspectible to addictions isn't capable of making a good, non-emotional stance against gambling. And even worse: children can't make the decision, their brains hasn't fully matured - and by gambling on young age, you activelly create gambling addictions.

Really there's not for nothing a reason why gambling (just like alcoholics) isn't allowed before the age of 18/21. And what's worse: alcohol is a physical addiction, so you're only suspectible to gain addicted when actually drinking alcoholics. Gambling is a psychological addiction, so doing the psychological "gambling" will trigger addictions.

 

I notice you haven't explained/rationalized the Duel Arena yet. Isn't it similar? I mean, you can stake tens or hundreds of millions there, and there have been people that have gained serious gambling problems from it. With dicing, the only thing removed is the slight bias of having an advantage (and if the skills are equivalent, you're right back to a PRNG scenario).

I notice you haven't explained/rationalized the Duel Arena yet. Isn't it similar? I mean, you can stake tens or hundreds of millions there, and there have been people that have gained serious gambling problems from it. With dicing, the only thing removed is the slight bias of having an advantage (and if the skills are equivalent, you're right back to a PRNG scenario).

This would be a good argument for removing the duel arena. :razz:

 

One big problem is that these games are built entirely on trust... And I think it would be safe to assume that the vast majority of players are not trustworthy (There are, of course, trustworthy hosts, and they deserve whatever credit they can get). They can't really go in and legitimize these games with ingame support, since people tend to be a bit touchy about tween/teenagers gambling. If you don't know, look at what they did to the game corner in the Pokemon franchise.

 

I'd think the duel arena has gotten off so far because they can handwave it away as a skill game. You need the stats and funds to be able to stand any chance with it, but there's still gambling addiction associated with it, and there has been for a long time.

There needs to be data in support of that assertion to be compelling. It's an assumption too strong to make any meaningful argument, since other variables are in play here.

 

More data to show that online gambling is addictive? That mmo's are addictive? That elements of online interaction can be addictive? Okay.

 

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From: https://divisiononaddictions.org/html/publications/shafferinternetgambling.pdf

This review leads to the opinion that gambling with EGDs is gambling with EGDs—whether these are connected to the Internet or not. Although the rates of gambling disorders vary across the different games that people play, and there is some evidence to suggest that EGDs are

associated with higher rates of disorder than social games, this observation results primarily from the social setting characteristics of the games and not inherent game attributes. Further, different people are attracted to different games; given the likelihood of co-occurring disorders with gambling disorders, these personal attributes contribute to the games people choose to play. Since the vast majority of people gamble without difficulty, it is essential to understand the personal attributes of gamblers who do experience gambling related problems; these gambling problems often, but not always, serve as a proxy for other mental health conditions (e.g., depression). Addiction to alcohol, drugs and gambling increases when these objects are used in isolation; under these conditions, informal social controls are limited or absent. EGDs can be used in isolation independent of whether the device is connected to the Internet. Consequently, gambling on computers linked to the Internet and gambling on computers not linked to the Internet represent similar risks; this circumstance is most likely when the gambling software and social setting characteristics are similar.

 

From: http://worldsofeducation.pbworks.com/f/addiction.pdf

[The results of] the MMORPG survey demographics had a total of 91 responses: 88% of those were male, 44% had a high school degree, and 29% had a bachelor's degree; 37% were students while 53% worked as full-time employees...MMOPRG players had tendencies of playing for 8 h continuously, losing sleep because of playing, and had been told they spend that suggested heavy overuse were dominated by the MMOPRG users. Social behaviors of users varied for the two groups, as significance was found in 50% of the questions in this category MMORPG users would rather spend time in the game than with friends, have more fun with in-game friends than people they know, found it easier to converse with people while in-game, did not find social relationships as important, and felt happier when in the game than anywhere else.

 

From: http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cipr/image/420.pdf

t. This case was selected as it demonstrates that a non-technologically oriented woman with a reportedly content home life and no prior addiction or psychiatric history abused the Internet which resulted in significant impairment to her family life...The subject did not see her compulsive use of the Internet as a problem; however, significant family problems developed subsequent to her overuse of the Internet. Specifically, her two teenage daughters felt ignored by their mother, as she was always sitting in front of the computer. Her husband of 17 years complained about the financial cost of the on-line service fees which he paid (up to $400.00 per month), and about her loss of interest in their marriage. Despite these negative consequences, the subject denied that this behavior was abnormal, had no desire to reduce the amount of time she spent on-line, and refused to seek treatment despite repeated requests from her husband. She felt it was natural to use the Internet, denied anyone could be addicted to it, felt her family was being unreasonable, and found an unique sense of excitement through on-line stimulation that she would not give up.

[/hide]

 

I found these without even really trying to look, skimming to the conclusions and findings. I admit I'm opening myself up to a huge goof here and feel free to correct me. But there have been tons of studies on internet addiction, be it to gambling, MMO's, gambling, or anything else. Saying that it's an assumption that someone can't get addicted to an online service, or even some service we don't readily associate as a negative thing (staking, let's say) doesn't really make sense and is pretty damn weak...

Considering how exploits work in the duel arena, there's not much of a difference between a scammer that walks with the money after losing a bet, and a person who initiates a duel with another player knowing that they can tip the results 100% in their favor with that exploit. New items enter the game every week with the potential to break ingame systems, and most exploiters go unpunished.

 

Seeing as Jagex has roughly the same power over both of these systems without having to be psychic or directly interfering in a way that could be construed as 'supportive' of these practices (in which the only patchwork 'solution' to getting rid of that particular problem would be to destroy the whole thing to avoid future responsibility), it seems kind of one sided if horse betting scammers, a group of people using a set of features to unintentional effect in order to produce an outcome that is "against the spirit of the game", get shut out of the system while duel exploiters, a group of people using a set of features to unintentional effect in order to produce an outcome that is "against the spirit of the game", continue to trick people into duels that they won't be able to win.

 

Sure, they could regulate the duel arena more so that the exploits don't work, but suggest they introduce a safer version of horse gambling and HOLD YOUR METAPHORICAL AND LITERAL VIRTUAL HORSES THAT WOULD BE ENDORSING GAMBLING

 

I notice you haven't explained/rationalized the Duel Arena yet. Isn't it similar? I mean, you can stake tens or hundreds of millions there, and there have been people that have gained serious gambling problems from it. With dicing, the only thing removed is the slight bias of having an advantage (and if the skills are equivalent, you're right back to a PRNG scenario).

 

 

Uhm isn't duel arena about how to USE the stats? IE: who can react faster on prayer switches, who can eat at better oppertunities, walk under the person to gain ticks etc. That's the impression I (and many others) have with duel arena, I don't see it as gambling, as you're constantly in control over the outcome. The focus isn't on the gambling of money, but rather on the fighting - and by changing that focus addictions are way less likely.

 

 

Look I'm not saying jagex should go out of their way to prevent any form of gambling - they're not a company aimed at preventing addictions. However blatantly allow, even suggest, gambling like with those dices (and some people here suggested they should come back) is simply bad.

The Duel Arena may be somewhat similar to gambling, but that is also why Jagex mentioned "please don't gamble unless it's about gameplay". Nevertheless, I don't mind if they don't prohibit it. It seems that the current gamble tools used by these scammers are easily fixed. It would just help if Jagex fixed them all at once, instead of one at a time.

What I don't get is why not simply state that gambling is against "the rules", and, thereafter punish/ban those people who break the rules? :unsure:

What I don't get is why not simply state that gambling is against "the rules", and, thereafter punish/ban those people who break the rules? :unsure:

Because of box staking and rat pits, and arguably conquest too.

I notice you haven't explained/rationalized the Duel Arena yet. Isn't it similar? I mean, you can stake tens or hundreds of millions there, and there have been people that have gained serious gambling problems from it. With dicing, the only thing removed is the slight bias of having an advantage (and if the skills are equivalent, you're right back to a PRNG scenario).

 

 

Uhm isn't duel arena about how to USE the stats? IE: who can react faster on prayer switches, who can eat at better oppertunities, walk under the person to gain ticks etc. That's the impression I (and many others) have with duel arena, I don't see it as gambling, as you're constantly in control over the outcome. The focus isn't on the gambling of money, but rather on the fighting - and by changing that focus addictions are way less likely.

 

 

Look I'm not saying jagex should go out of their way to prevent any form of gambling - they're not a company aimed at preventing addictions. However blatantly allow, even suggest, gambling like with those dices (and some people here suggested they should come back) is simply bad.

 

No. Two words: "box staking". With that, you are left with only the stats you and your opponent have. Engine ticks may be an advantage so slight it's almost not noticable, but since you can't directly control that, you're still bound strictly to the PRNG.

 

 

@Alg: Yes, I'm definitely interested in removing the Duel Arena. I mean hey - if Jagex is going to go on a crusade about how gambling is bad, then wouldn't it be a better idea to rethink and revisit the nature of their largest gambling hub since RS2?

What I don't get is why not simply state that gambling is against "the rules", and, thereafter punish/ban those people who break the rules? :unsure:

Because of box staking and rat pits, and arguably conquest too.

They could make it so that gambling/betting/wagering/etc... are against the rules outside of areas that have the mechanics already built into the game specifically for that purpose.

What I don't get is why not simply state that gambling is against "the rules", and, thereafter punish/ban those people who break the rules? :unsure:

Because of box staking and rat pits, and arguably conquest too.

They could make it so that gambling/betting/wagering/etc... are against the rules outside of areas that have the mechanics already built into the game specifically for that purpose.

 

For what cause? I honestly don't think these hot-fixes would be effective. It'll be like an attempt to stop spamming by making it against the rules.

What I don't get is why not simply state that gambling is against "the rules", and, thereafter punish/ban those people who break the rules? :unsure:

Because of box staking and rat pits, and arguably conquest too.

They could make it so that gambling/betting/wagering/etc... are against the rules outside of areas that have the mechanics already built into the game specifically for that purpose.

 

For what cause? I honestly don't think these hot-fixes would be effective. It'll be like an attempt to stop spamming by making it against the rules.

 

I thought spamming WAS against the rules? :unsure:

The point was; How effective was that rule?

The point was; How effective was that rule?

 

Once upon a time, it was reasonably effective, until the bots started spamming websites for gold sellers, and the Pmods stopped enforcing the rules because they felt that it wasn't their job ...

 

:rolleyes:

The point was; How effective was that rule?

 

Once upon a time, it was reasonably effective, until the bots started spamming websites for gold sellers, and the Pmods stopped enforcing the rules because they felt that it wasn't their job ...

 

:rolleyes:

I don't know that they felt it wasn't their job, but it certainly wasn't effective. On more than one occasion I saw a Pmod mute all the spammers in the G.E. only to have new ones pop back up one by one until within 5 minutes it was like nothing had happened.

As long as the dicers aren't bots, banning them would be effective. But a bot could just return faster than you can ban them...

 

However, making it against the rules would help alleviate some of the public desire. People won't do it in the ge area because the players could be banned for participating, not just the host for attempting to get people.