The Back Room

[archimage_a]

Well. I have the computer back to nearly as good as before the harddrive died all that time ago...somewhat interesting that Space ended and started in relation to my harddisk, despite none of the data files being store there =P.

 

Anywho, one upgrade, one downgrade and one unknown.

Upgrade, went from 3.9 to 4.6 on the Windows rating system.

Downgrade, can't adjust screen brightness, so it is burning my eyes.

Unknown, got one unknown peice of hardware.

 

 

Other than that, back in working order =P

[The_Mather1]

You mean a stress ball? 'm not sure how many of those that I've broken.

[archimage_a]

No, I mean a lump of 'stronger than concrete' that you can make in your freezer, and then rage out on.

 

Though be careful shooting it...Apparently during the test someone shot it, bullet richochet of it and into the leg of the person it was being demonstrated to.

[Icuownage]

I've broke my mouse because I got angry with stuff, and the mouse is the thing that is in my hand.

 

Now it's hard to click and the mousewheel is broken and I'm too lazy to replace it so I live with it.

[jasignhagj]

I broke my keyboard elevator legs slamming it because it wouldn't work in the BIOS a few weeks ago. I've never actually destroyed anything in rage though.

 

Never check the sharpness of a blade by running you finger along it, no matter how lightly, you don't feel a sharp blade... well, at least not until it hits fresh skin or flesh.

I can support this.

Also, if you break a plate at work, don't try to put it back together like a puzzle. I took a big chunk of flesh out of my finger last night doing that.

[The_Mather1]

So that's what those are called, all I knew was that they supported the keyboard at an angle and that a single fist was enough to send them flying.

[Corvus]

May as well explain why that character concept is broken:

Rules broken:

As previously mentioned you cannot use multiple magic items in a slot at once (Advanced item Slot rules are really crazy and are something to avoid)

The Hand of the Mage does not allow for reloading weapons (unless the ability to perform a complicated action is mentioned, the spell does not allow the action to be performed. For example Fireball does not allow you to forge metal despite the fact that you could in theory do so. examples: Telekinesis and Unseen servant, having similar effects to Mage Hand, Specifically allow special actions to be taken.

common sense rule Broken:

A continous Item featuring Reduce person subverts Limiting factors within the spell's effect, taking on features Reminiscient of Shapechange in the form of being able to modify the status of the ability as a move action (I would ballpark the net Spell effect as a 4th-5th level spell, not a 1st level spell.). Note how the comparable Ring of invisibility Maintains the Drawback of ending the spell when making the attack, and requires a standard action to reactivate the ability, when a continous Reduce person allows switching the change in Size as a move action bypassing the limiting factor of having a fixed spell length to prevent swapping sizes when convient.

Playablility Broken:

The damage dealt by the Weapon is Abysmal for the price: 1d4+1d10 for 100GP per shot. and you do not gain sneak attacks after the first shot

The Reloading Strategy INCREASES the reload time from 1 full round to 3 full rounds(technically its actually impossible to ever finish reloading as the spell Mage hand takes a standard action every round before providing any effect) per gun if the spell was even legal.

Natural Reach 0: Cannot perform Attacks of opportunity unless sharing squares, unable to flank, must enter opponent's square to attack(generally resulting in an attack of opportunity)

[archimage_a]

As previously mentioned you cannot use multiple magic items in a slot at once (Advanced item Slot rules are really crazy and are something to avoid)

Will just explain Retech's logic so it doesn't blow up into a rule war:

 

As previously mentioned you cannot use multiple magic items in a slot at once

This was ignored originally, but the change from amulet to ring negates the argument somewhat.

 

The Hand of the Mage does not allow for reloading weapons

This was taken into consideration, but was felt that, maybe, the mod would be lenient in a speicific game.

If not the plan was to pass one of the pistols to the mage hand (impossible since the pistol weighs 3 pounds more than the mage hand capacity, since it is double barrelled)

Though, ultimately, could be cirmvented by dropping and picking up, since there was a wall between him and everyone else.

 

(Though, in my opinion, this method was wholey unneccessary, and a single musket would be of greater efficency in general battle:

(comparative damage)

-2

-2

+2

-4

0

0

Then repeates, but does so at half the GP cost.

Or even two muskets at only a slight additional penalty over two pistols(-4 to hit).

Though given the probable min-maxing the extra 8 pounds may make this undesirable.

Though, as I have said before, I feel 1 musket is enough.)

 

A continous Item featuring Reduce person subverts Limiting factors within the spell's effect,

You can duke out the rules on this as it is way over my head.

However, I suspect that Retech would be happy to play a tiny character forever, or to only play it when taking a shot...so.

 

The damage dealt by the Weapon is Abysmal for the price: 1d4+1d10 for 100GP per shot. and you do not gain sneak attacks after the first shot

Not entirely sure that is accurate:

Small pistol deals 1d6

Sneak attack does 3d6

Musket ball costs 1 GP(or 5 GP for 5)

Thunderball costs 100 GP and gives 2d6 extra damage.

 

Ergo, 6d6 damage at 100 GP a shot, or 4d6 damage at 1 gp a shot, as long as there is sneak attack.

Alternatively, 1d6 damage for 1 GP a shot or 3d6 damage for 100 GP a shot, if there is no sneak attack.

 

He has a +10 to hit even after double weapon penalty and ect(apparently), so 1 in 2 chance to hit, dealing between 1d3 and 2d6, averaging at between 2 and 6.

With 2 guns, that is 4 and 12, per GP.

Plus any damage mods.

 

It is not brillant damage to GP, lets be honest.

Though is 99% cheaper than your stated prices.

 

The Reloading Strategy INCREASES the reload time from 1 full round to 3 full rounds

You require a free hand to reload, so you would need to drop or otherwise dispose of one of the pistols so you could load the other.

However, with Quick Load, the reload action is reduced to a move action, rather than a full round action.

So if dropping an item is a free action, you could drop, reload, pickup, end round, drop, reload pickup.

So it is two full rounds for two full weapons.

...on the assumption that nothing goes wrong.

 

Natural Reach 0:

Not sure it is relevant, but, like I said, way over my head.

I am fairly sure that a ranged weapon still has its normal reach, and given that Retech is hiding behind a wall(in the example), AoO is not the most pressing concern.

[Retech]

Perhaps that could be amended by having a boots of magehand assist the hand of mage to hold on rifle. Since passing from one to another is a free action, although I see what Archi means by just using one musket now, which I didn't notice earlier.

 

Notice that reduce person only affects things within the area of the spell, which is the person and their items. Projectiles that leave this area expand to normal size, which is back at small, not affecting weapon damage at all. I was trying to use increased size earlier, but it did not work, so now it works in my favor.

 

I felt that I had to add damage liberally because rogues aren't exactly super casters and need all the help that they could get. Further, GP is not exactly an obstacle, because of the general looting and theft of everything in the town square + all the wealth from PCs trying to kill you as level appropriate encounters.

 

Instead of a goblin, using LA rules in Pathfinder, we shall use a young advanced Goblin, with no LA due to change in CR = change in LA guideline. This boosts the dexterity of the goblin by 8, reduces its size to Diminutive, and gives an additional +1 AC and +1 attack roll due to size modifiers. Total, it reduces damage from 5d6 to 4d6 + 1d4, increases attack roll +5, increases AC +4 (removing armor because it is now unable to support such a high max dex bonus), and the new tiny size weapon is light enough to be temporarily held by the mage hand, for reloading purposes, since mage hand is "at will".

 

I am also pretty sure that sniping (shooting and then immediately restealthing, which is under stealth rules) is equivilant to shooting while invisible, giving sneak attack bonus every time until they find me. Pretty unlikely to have anyone with a decent perception modifier just walking around (they need +17 even to beat me if I get a 1). I will try to find specifically the line that backs this up, but I was informed of this earlier.

 

I believe that addresses everything? The character is not designed to be played in a regular DnD game. The goal was to make it extremely effective at what it does, robbing town squares and getting the heck out.

[archimage_a]

Its not exactly good at getting out of there...Fairly slow and see last quotation and explaination.

 

Also:

Reduce Person:

....

This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

Tiny gun doesn't exist, though would be reduced to 1d4 if it did.

Size modifers don't change the weight of the item. (Large Pistol weighs 5 pounds, small Pistol weighs 5 pounds...QED)

 

Also, range of the Reduce Person Spell is 25 feet +5 per 2 levels.

So using your incorrect version of the rules, you would only be able to hit at small damage + sneak attack at 30 feet...assuming a level 1 person made the ring, which isn't possible...Since you need to be a level 7 caster to produce a ring...

 

Sniping:

If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a 20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

 

Stealthing in public:

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.

Could, quite easily, be taken as hearing your gun go off...

Alternatively, if you are walking around outside people can see you, so you can't Stealth.

[Retech]

Quote: 1 Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much.

 

^ Weapons table

 

--

 

Just looked at a clause stating that projectile weapons are based on the size of the weapon firing, so I'm wrong there. Damage is reduced on average by 1, which is not a big deal.

 

--

 

It doesn't make sense to class guns separately from bows, for example, because they go boom. In Dnd, a musket is a simple ranged weapon that uses musket balls and deals 2d6 damage as a medium weapon. There is nothing else intrinsically separating them from a bow.

 

Though this could be changed around to use a hand crossbow instead, dealing a bit less damage.

[Corvus]

Okay, I guess I shall have to explain things:

[spoiler=Damage]

In order to properly Use an item, The Size must match, so for a small sized goblin you would need to use Small weapons especially with firearms logically. However the effect of Reduce Person reduces the Size of all items carried as well, making it into a tiny double barrel pistol, which being a projectile weapon deals damage as Tiny weapon even though the Projectile is small when it hits:

1d4 damage base (1gp per shot)

Next you need to work out the bonus damage from Thundering shot. The damage bonus of Thundering shot is normally 2d6, However this following standard convention is damage for Medium Thundering shot, but being a weapon The standard size damage rules apply requiring adjustment to the Damage for small thundering shot which is 1d10 (they do not explicity state that the damage changes for ammunition, because the ammunition in the core book have no individual traits that apply damage bonuses besides magic, which is uneffected by size. Think of it using the example of alchemist's fire, a Tiny character would use a thimble sized amount as a thrown weapon but would result in the same damage as a fairly large flask)

1d4+1d10 damage base (100gp per shot)

Sneak attack damage would only apply against opponents who had not yet taken an action, unless you were to only make 1 attack per turn (Sniping requires an move action to perform the stealth check, restricting the actual attack to a standard action which can only be a single attack even when fighting with 2 weapons or your attack bonus allows multiple attacks).

 

 

[spoiler=Mage Hand]

Okay, you seem to be really missing how the ability of the Hand of the Mage item works.

The Hand of the Mage is a continous effect item granting the spell Mage Hand at will.

However what is being misinterpreted is the Spell being at will.

the At will descriptor signifies that an ability may be used infinite times per day, and in this case that you may cast/activate the spell Mage hand as per magic item activation rules Requring a standard action (normal magic items require a standard action to activate and the spell effect does as well, so either way it takes a standard action).

Then As per the Mage hand spell rules, the duration is concentration, which means that unless you perform a Standard action to concentrate on the spell on each subsequent turn the spell ceases to function at the end of the turn. Therefore in order to use 2 Mage Hand effects you would need 2 standard actions per turn in addtion to 2 move actions, which if my memory serves me right is only an ability of the chronotyryn.

 

[spoiler=Natural reach 0]

Vitally important actually, as Arrow slits do not stop melee attacks or prevent threatening squares, they only provide cover, so most attempts to attack or flee by the character provoke attacks of opportunity (ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, and melee attacks require entering the opponent's space unless using reach provoking attacks of opportunity) (also as a fun fact a ranged touch attack while using the fireball spell bypasses the improved evasion provided by the arrow slit due to line of effect rules)

 

 

 

Reduce person effect: "Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)." (Unless you threw the gun, the projectiles were fired by a tiny weapon, as that is based upon the Current state of the weapon that fired it)

 

Retech, CR DOES NOT ever equate to level adjustment, directly equating the 2 causes issues such as a Random example is that Silver Dragons have negative level adjustments. Your example of using templates is a perfect example of trying to game the system.

 

Reduce person targets 1 humanoid, anything that loses contact with the humanoid returns to its normal size instantly, however this does not change the damage dealt by the projectiles as the weapon that fired it is still the smaller sized weapon, with the exception of damage effects of the projectile themselves which return to the normal size category.

 

As a whole Firearms are incompatible with the Game system, unless they are made the primary weapon of choice for most characters.

[Retech]

Just putting it out there, but there is a huge difference between trying to game the system for the fun of it (as in, not using it in an actual game) rather than making a character that is designed for play in an actual game (much less a Tavern game, which is decidedly low OP). I'm only doing this to more fully understand the game system and to have the challenge of trying to make a decent rogue, which I have never done before (having never made a rogue). Don't always assume that just because it's Retech and he's making a "build", he's always trying to game the system, whether in a game or not. Every character I've made has taught me something, so now I am better at it than before and I'm starting to get to a stage where I don't have to look in the rules to find a specific weapon or guideline. Believe it or not, but I'm not going to be breaking any tavern games that we play.

 

However, here are the guidelines for LA in Pathfinder, which are vastly different from 3.5. Indeed, it basically says that CR = LA:

 

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

 

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs

 

---

 

And in the post directly above yours, you can see that I realized the clause in reduce person that specifically says the damage of the projectile is affected by the size that you end up in as a result of reduce person.

 

---

 

And I just checked and you're right about the mage hand, so I will have to figure out another way to do that. I think more effective would be to go with Archi's idea of just using a double-barreled musket.

[archimage_a]

There is nothing else intrinsically separating them from a bow.

Nothing, intrinsically, seperates a chaotic evil human from a lawful good human.

However good roleplaying demands there be a difference.

 

Natural reach 0:

Two things.

First, Retech's plan relies on not being seen in the first place. Can't shoot what you can't see.

Second, if you stood 5 feet back, you get a smaller field of vision, but would be immune to AoA's from outside.

 

Your example of using templates is a perfect example of trying to game the system.

My sentiments exactly.

 

however this does not change the damage dealt by the projectiles as the weapon that fired it is still the smaller sized weapon, with the exception of damage effects of the projectile themselves which return to the normal size category.

I agree...Otherwise you could have a diminutive swarm of thundershot bullets, all doing rather large amounts of damage.

 

As a whole Firearms are incompatible with the Game system, unless they are made the primary weapon of choice for most characters

Kinda true of all ranged weapons.

[Corvus]

Well, I guess I have to say thanks Retech, as I did not notice how horribly broken the monsters as PC rules were in Pathfinder (just glancing through almost everything not listed for PC Use has between -1 and -8 LA). A demonstration of this is how using the Pathfinder system a (wyrmling) Silver dragon has a Starting Effective Character level of 6 (despite actually having a character level of 7), as opposed to the 3.5 method of monsters as player characters which has the same creature with an effective character level of 11 (Pathfinder grants it -1 LA when 3.5 grants it +4 LA). Largely the issue here lies with a core issue in the CR system, as CRs are intended to be a Moderately challenging Foe for 4 PCs at that level (Which makes the very concept of using the CR as ECL absurd), however generally the CRs of Creatures tend to be far off on all but the most iconic creatures making the CR system more or less unuseable as intended (Generally I just make encounters Party ACL + 2~3)

[Retech]

Yeah, the templates are pretty broken. The positive +1 templates definitely balance out all of the negative templates. A young, perpetually drunk advanced, half celestial, for example. :P

 

There's this great thread on Giant in the Playground Forums called "That's only CR 9???", basically pointing out with various broken monsters at each CR level in 3.5. There was one about a giant crab that was CR 3, but was challenging for even level 7 parties. Hopefully Grim doesn't throw those at us, if he decides to run Kingmaker later.

 

Probably a good idea for Grim to look through everyone that is playing a monster PC. For Kingmaker, I have made a baroness character that is actually a halfling summoner. She is of the herdmaster archetype (or something of that sort), so having two small Eidolon of half strength rather than one. One will have ranks in perform (percussion) and the other will have ranks in perform (wind instrument), both having ride, so they will basically pull me around in a carriage, playing a British grenadier march. They will have red (or Prussian blue/grey, haven't decided) wool uniforms and a poofy hat (or tricornered), and muskets.

 

In purchasing all the things necessary for this, I basically ran through my WBL and didn't have enough money for magical items, but that shouldn't be an issue. I bought a dragon ballista too, since they can work together to fire that as well while I sit back imperiously and shout out commands in a haughty tone. :thumbup:

 

But just a cursory look over a DnD forum will spot things that need to be banned (at least in any reasonable game) to have any sembelance of balance.

 

Antagonize feat: Make an extremely easy intimidate check (maybe like DC 10 at most at level 4), forcing anyone to come attack you with a melee attack (yes, even casters)

 

Terrible Remorse: 4th level spell. Makes the enemy lose their turn even if they make their will save

 

Level Adjustment: Thing I just put up there

 

^

 

Just on the first page alone. This is like intelligent item/Bobo abuse times ten.

[Grim_]

This whole discussion is a good example of why I am REALLY starting to most of what I see of FATE. Playing the system should not give a large advantage over simply playing a concept (Choosing what seems thematically appropriate rather than what is mechanically expedient) at least in my mind. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't projectiles launched by reduced/enlarged characters do the same amount of damage as they regain their former mass?

 

Oh and retech, if we're going for overpowered 3.X spells, otto's irresistible dance (YOU MUST DANCE, NO SAVES ALLOWED), the maze spell, force cage and candle of invocation to cast GATE/ greater planar binding from a malconvoker spring to mind (Well, that and grease/color spray/enfeebling ray/ metamagiced touch of idiocy).

[Corvus]

This whole discussion is a good example of why I am REALLY starting to most of what I see of FATE. Playing the system should not give a large advantage over simply playing a concept (Choosing what seems thematically appropriate rather than what is mechanically expedient) at least in my mind. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't projectiles launched by reduced/enlarged characters do the same amount of damage as they regain their former mass?

 

Oh and retech, if we're going for overpowered 3.X spells, otto's irresistible dance (YOU MUST DANCE, NO SAVES ALLOWED), the maze spell, force cage and candle of invocation to cast GATE/ greater planar binding from a malconvoker spring to mind (Well, that and grease/color spray/enfeebling ray/ metamagiced touch of idiocy).

A summary of attacks under Reduce person effect (held = in use or carried on person):

Melee(continously held): damage as appropriate for 1 size category less

Melee(non-continously held): inappropriate weapon size penalty, or use as comparable weapon one rating higher(light->one handed->Two handed[Two handed weapons always suffer inappropriate size penalties]) under reduced size category

Thrown(continously held): regular damage calculation

Thrown(non-continously held): inappropriate weapon size penalty

Ranged(continously held): damage as appropriate for 1 size category less

Ranged(non-continously held): inappropriate size penalty, or use as a 'larger' weapon type (ENTIRELY GM choice to allow this, essentially a logical extension of the rules to allow for example an larger size category light c'bow as a heavy c'bow of the smaller size category

Projectile(continously held): Regular damage (Generally 0 damage)

Projectile(non-continously held): inappropriate size penalty or unable to be used (logical extension of the weapon size rules, as projectiles do have size categories, its just that they mechanically act the same within the core resources.)

Magic(spells and weapon enchantments): damage as normal

 

Yeah, one of the things about 3.5 OGL games is that they work excelently if no one is trying to break the game system, and when they do break the game system everything breaks.

[archimage_a]

Yeah, one of the things about 3.5 OGL games is that they work excelently if no one is trying to break the game system, and when they do break the game system everything breaks.

 

Strangely true of society as well :blink:

Same counterargument as well 'I have to cheat the system because otherwise the system cheats me out of what I am entitled to.'

 

At any rate, two ideas:

1) Generate some preset characters, as everyone bar Retech is sick of creating characters.

2) Give people two days to generate a character that isn't powergamey, and anyone who fails that gets a preset/shown the door.

[Retech]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure reduce person and enlarge person aren't exact opposites of each other.

 

Since I like spending time building my characters, when we start, I will just post my character sheet for Grim and he can point out anything powergamey that I should alter. While I did optimise in one respect of my current character (stingy with money), it was so that it could perform the way that I needed it to for a character concept (made it possible for a two person marching band).

[Seraphi]

Preset characters are a horrible idea. I'm fine with generating any number of characters as long as they get used.

 

Still saving my warforged fighter for the next campaign we do.

[The_Mather1]

It's good to be home again.

 

On a slightly related note I now fully understand the mechanics behind at least one variation bolt-action triggers and have a slightly improved grasp on the mechanics behind lever, pump, slider and automatic triggers.

 

EDIT: Eating Brownie straight out of the oven, it's like a lubeless orgie in my mouth.

[jasignhagj]

I just ate 32 Oreos over the span of the afternoon. Life is good.

[Jehosaphat]

I just ate 32 Oreos over the span of the afternoon. Life is good.

Only 32? Wuss.

 

On a different note, I've spent a great deal of my time messing around with Minecraft and B12 RTDs. Might start up a RTD here just for the hell of it.

 

But it's good to be back at ol' TIF.

[jasignhagj]

Now come play some EUIII with us.