pulli23 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 You can tell me to stop all you like but there is actual academic research into gold farming and their sources quote the average chinese mass gold seller at having a turnover of about $100,000 a year. That's turnover not profit. Now even if you bulk sold to several different sites (most of them are owned by the same people) can you see why I am saying that they don't have that kinda cash to buy in the quantities claimed? If you have evidence to the contrary then post it. All this BS about "ooh I cant say because its secret squirrels stuff" is bollocks. Post it public let Jagex know, get the methods shut down or you are just as bad as the people doing it. Some of the people are claiming to have sold via player auctions but this is time consuming as most people probably only buy in low quantities. This was a bug allegedly netting billions every hour, you can't sell that off to private players quick enough. When they post a picture of the money I'll believe it Source: Current Analysis and Future Research Agenda on "Gold Farming": Real-World Production in Developing Countries for the Virtual Economies of Online GamesAuthor: RICHARD HEEKS, Manchester UniversitySigh. Stop construing a false point and arguing against it, its a logical fallacy. Stop saying stupid shit like "I doubt gold sellers have x amount of money" because you have no data to back up that stance. Also, saying "chinese gold farmers" is flat out wrong, as proven. You are calling all gold farmers Chinese, or else the only ones this would apply to. Another flaw. And ya pulli, I'm calling you a liar. You said that "its never even occurred to you people would do it" which is flat out BULL SHIT. For that to be true, you'd have to do at least some of the following: 1.) Not understand what many bots are used for (farming gold to sell) 2.) Not understand that like probably every other MMO game out there, there is a black market for goods 3.) Never have had your chat set to public in the past few years 4.) Never seen any chat in the GE/sometimes edge over the past few years 5.) Never read any of the threads about botting/scamming/people selling gold on any forum ever 6.) Never seen a gold selling website ad. 7.) Never had someone mention it to you. And the list goes on. So ya, I'm calling you a liar. When I'm done with RS, I'll probably sell my account to pay school bills. Same for Wow. I have legal reasons (as well as recent developments) that back up my belief that, no matter what the TOS say, Jagex/Blizzard can not actually claim full or partial ownership of your account. I also refuse to accept the argument that hacking/scamming are bad without a good moral standpoint for these statements, for by accepting that argument I also accept that any account/character has some tangible worth. Thus I'm stuck in a double bind. Either hacking is bad because for the tangible harm it causes, or it isn't because none of that which was taken was in any ways your to begin with. Heck, you can't even compare the later to taking something someone else has borrowed, because that item, even though it didn't belong to the person who you took it from, still has tangible value. I'm trying to think of something else that has no tangible value that could be used TBH. Can anyone think of something? I'd be interested if anyone has any LOGICAL and not stupid answers or arguments for/against this stance. those gold selling sites actually work? IMO I tried to research any of those and they had no payment number for customer relations. So they can't pay taxes nor can they work apart from amateur level. That's something I would never ever trust nor consider "large". It's just like spam: do you consider selling your old friends who you now never speak to spambots? The cost of a character is purely emotional & that is what makes hacking bad. All my items i gained myself, those are worth every second I spent and I know exactly how for each of the items I spent time to make money over the years. Hacking just destroys that. Are you a too cold economist to actually understand this? Can't you see the difference between emotional value being worth a lot more than any "tangible" value. Want an example: well look at ANY robbery; what people hate most is when their things like wedding ring, old photos & art that is painstakingly gained is stolen. Purely because of the memory those bring. In rs you also have a lot of value on each item that you earn: it is something you worked for. And the fact of working alone makes it valuable. Not the actual amount of time or the worth on dubious sites. 1 First they came to fishingand I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing Then they came to the yewsand I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews Then they came for the oresand I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logdotzip Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 different strokes for different folks if RWT was allowed by players I would have a cleaned RS bank and my semester of college paid for. but since it isnt i dont want to risk my acc of 11 years my youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 ^oh you~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estoc Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 On another note, could someone who feels that these players have poor morals please explain why they feel that way? Sorry, but given the situation, I would easily do the same thing. Unless you're morality incarnate, you doing the same just makes it an appealing option. On a basic level I'd imagine that they feel it's immoral because in the terms of service everyone agrees to abide by it says you aren't allowed to sell in-game items. So by turning around and selling them you're being dishonest aka immoral. Morality at it's core however is a man made concept, so different people will find different things immoral. From the empty days of hope, deny the darknessFollow my voice, we'll run far away from hereIf only to hide, to escape this lifeAnd live forever, forever in the sun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum_Myr Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 On another note, could someone who feels that these players have poor morals please explain why they feel that way? Sorry, but given the situation, I would easily do the same thing. Unless you're morality incarnate, you doing the same just makes it an appealing option. On a basic level I'd imagine that they feel it's immoral because in the terms of service everyone agrees to abide by it says you aren't allowed to sell in-game items. So by turning around and selling them you're being dishonest aka immoral. Morality at it's core however is a man made concept, so different people will find different things immoral. And many people have a scale for morality. Just because action A is not 100% moral, it can be more or less moral than action B. (unpredicated murder is less moral than punching someone in the face, for a simple example) Maxed since Sunday, January 9th, 2014Completionist since Wednesday, June 4th, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Squab Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) [hide]You can tell me to stop all you like but there is actual academic research into gold farming and their sources quote the average chinese mass gold seller at having a turnover of about $100,000 a year. That's turnover not profit. Now even if you bulk sold to several different sites (most of them are owned by the same people) can you see why I am saying that they don't have that kinda cash to buy in the quantities claimed? If you have evidence to the contrary then post it. All this BS about "ooh I cant say because its secret squirrels stuff" is bollocks. Post it public let Jagex know, get the methods shut down or you are just as bad as the people doing it. Some of the people are claiming to have sold via player auctions but this is time consuming as most people probably only buy in low quantities. This was a bug allegedly netting billions every hour, you can't sell that off to private players quick enough. When they post a picture of the money I'll believe it Source: Current Analysis and Future Research Agenda on "Gold Farming": Real-World Production in Developing Countries for the Virtual Economies of Online GamesAuthor: RICHARD HEEKS, Manchester UniversitySigh. Stop construing a false point and arguing against it, its a logical fallacy. Stop saying stupid shit like "I doubt gold sellers have x amount of money" because you have no data to back up that stance. Also, saying "chinese gold farmers" is flat out wrong, as proven. You are calling all gold farmers Chinese, or else the only ones this would apply to. Another flaw. And ya pulli, I'm calling you a liar. You said that "its never even occurred to you people would do it" which is flat out BULL SHIT. For that to be true, you'd have to do at least some of the following: 1.) Not understand what many bots are used for (farming gold to sell) 2.) Not understand that like probably every other MMO game out there, there is a black market for goods 3.) Never have had your chat set to public in the past few years 4.) Never seen any chat in the GE/sometimes edge over the past few years 5.) Never read any of the threads about botting/scamming/people selling gold on any forum ever 6.) Never seen a gold selling website ad. 7.) Never had someone mention it to you. And the list goes on. So ya, I'm calling you a liar. When I'm done with RS, I'll probably sell my account to pay school bills. Same for Wow. I have legal reasons (as well as recent developments) that back up my belief that, no matter what the TOS say, Jagex/Blizzard can not actually claim full or partial ownership of your account. I also refuse to accept the argument that hacking/scamming are bad without a good moral standpoint for these statements, for by accepting that argument I also accept that any account/character has some tangible worth. Thus I'm stuck in a double bind. Either hacking is bad because for the tangible harm it causes, or it isn't because none of that which was taken was in any ways your to begin with. Heck, you can't even compare the later to taking something someone else has borrowed, because that item, even though it didn't belong to the person who you took it from, still has tangible value. I'm trying to think of something else that has no tangible value that could be used TBH. Can anyone think of something? I'd be interested if anyone has any LOGICAL and not stupid answers or arguments for/against this stance.[/hide] those gold selling sites actually work? IMO I tried to research any of those and they had no payment number for customer relations. So they can't pay taxes nor can they work apart from amateur level. That's something I would never ever trust nor consider "large". It's just like spam: do you consider selling your old friends who you now never speak to spambots? The cost of a character is purely emotional & that is what makes hacking bad. All my items i gained myself, those are worth every second I spent and I know exactly how for each of the items I spent time to make money over the years. Hacking just destroys that. Are you a too cold economist to actually understand this? Can't you see the difference between emotional value being worth a lot more than any "tangible" value. Want an example: well look at ANY robbery; what people hate most is when their things like wedding ring, old photos & art that is painstakingly gained is stolen. Purely because of the memory those bring. In rs you also have a lot of value on each item that you earn: it is something you worked for. And the fact of working alone makes it valuable. Not the actual amount of time or the worth on dubious sites. Also, I don't know what you mean by "no payment number for customer relations" but I'm pretty sure people who sell illegal drugs don't have one either, nor do they pay taxes. Yet they work apart from an amateur level and is considered a large section of the economy and (certain) people who sell drugs have a large business from it and are, essentially, professionals at it. Note: I'm not trying to compare the drug trade to RWT. I'm trying to use the drug trade as a counter example to his statements. You do have a point of hacking being wrong regardless of whether or not the items are worth a monetary value. I find it funny tho "the fact of working alone makes it valuable. Not the actual amount of time" Um, people value things based on how much time it took to earn it. How mad will someone be if I hacked their maxed account the spent years working on, sell their p hats, bot with their account until it gets perm-banned? Mad. How mad would they get if replacing that account from scratch took 12 hours of work? Significantly less mad. Edited August 13, 2012 by Kimberly Removed off topic snippit. Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them meBuying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupineThe only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it. Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Paul Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Hey guys, Just a quick reminder that if you want to ask specifics, please take it to PM. We would like for this topic to stay open as this is a pretty big event, but in the current direction it is headed, a lock is inevitable. Due to the nature of the topic at hand, discussion of rule breaking (be it Jagexian or Tip.Itonian) is bound to be talked about plenty, so please keep it mind both sets of rules when posting and PMing. Feel free to discuss in-thread the morality of this event, the logistical impossibility behind it, and anything else on topic that doesn't break the rules. But, if you want to start asking questions to a specific player, keep it out of the thread. You can always report a PM as well if someone is heckling you. Working on max and completionist capes. 2435/2475 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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