RuneScape Road Trip - Starts 1st May

[Sy_Accursed]

I agree some things do need fail safes built in, especially when they aren't something that has an economic impact.

 

Champ scrolls, SOTG and Ibis are prime examples.

Phoenix egglings would probably be another.

 

The hybrid mechanic is the perfect example - it's always possible to get them, but every extra try makes it more common until it reaches a point where it is nearly 100% chance.

 

I mean it could still be rare and have a high threshold like 10k even, but it'd be nice to just know there is an end point and you can't be left forever without it because of RNG.

[Yoko Kurama]

Right, I don't think you could do it with item drops to the same extent (that would have all sorts of effects), but you can do it with non-tradeables. 

[helring]

I think something like champ scrolls or phoenix eggling are fine with RNG. However, with items like skilling outfits, they either should have something like hybrid armour or be much less rare. Prestige items or useless stuff I'm fine with them being extremely rare. Useful exp bonus items shouldn't, especially items like skilling outfits where if they're too rare then by the time you get them you don't really need them.

[Reliable]

[bleep] Pyramid Plunder and Jagex's irrational and infantile obsession with the RNG.

 

There are people that got Ibis and the SotG within 2 hours of this weekend, whereas others (such as myself) have been at it for far longer without any success. Instead of coming up with something creative like a point system per trip/urn/sarcophagus to trade in, they went for the worst possible option, which is just completely luck based and the most likely to induce carpal tunnel.

 

I was sort of beginning to like Jagex and they pull something like this. I get it that in real life sometimes luck matters, and that's fine, but in a controlled environment why would you want to opt for pure randomness whereby often people get nothing regardless of their effort? And why would you implement it for nearly everything as Jagex does? It makes absolutely no sense. A little randomness can be fun and quaint, but to push it everywhere is ridiculous. God, I hope their weekend was as unpleasant as mine and that of countless other people who couldn't recieve the blessing of Jagex's much-vaunted RNG. They don't learn anything, ever.

 

Have to agree with you on this point. What they should do is add something to compensate for the effort, like a hefty amount of Thieving experience or something. This way, people won't get nothing for their effort.

[Steph]

I too don't like it when things don't go my way I deserve compensation

[Sy_Accursed]

I think something like champ scrolls or phoenix eggling are fine with RNG. However, with items like skilling outfits, they either should have something like hybrid armour or be much less rare. Prestige items or useless stuff I'm fine with them being extremely rare. Useful exp bonus items shouldn't, especially items like skilling outfits where if they're too rare then by the time you get them you don't really need them.

I'd really disagree with champ scrolls. I'd say of all the examples they are the one that need it the most.

 

Ibis, SOTG, egglings are all entirely optional content, but champion scrolls are required content if you desire 'completing' the game via trimmed comp cape. So it becomes rather unfair/problematic that you can kill tens of thousands of the required monster, even bankrupt yourself doing it and still come away no closer to a champion scroll whilst someone else can swoop in kill a few hundred and walk away with the req complete. As something that has to be completed it really should have a more finite end point in rarity or be a lot more common to gather; much like scarabite journal, ancient journal and qbd journal drops - they are rare enough that without a bit of luck on side its still relatively hard to gather them up, but they aren't so obscenely rare that pure luck can block you from completing the content of the trimmed cape.

[strilmus]

to me it's more of a wasted content thing that most of the playerbase hasn't actually seen, with some sort of made up prestige attached to a random number generator which renders any level of that prestige pointless

 

at least with skills, you aren't limited to what you can do beyond your own ability as long as you spend enough time on it

[helring]

The whole point of trimmed comp is that it is optional. The trim on the cape is cool but its not exp or stats or anything. 

[Sy_Accursed]

The whole point of trimmed comp is that it is optional. The trim on the cape is cool but its not exp or stats or anything.

From that stance everything in the whole game is optional because there is nothing forcing you to do any of it besides your own desire.

 

And whilst is is true everything is optional in an mmorpg, there is a distinct difference from something very obviously setup to be completed to meet that 'completed everything' accomplishment, thus being required by it and something that literally has no implications to any other content if you choose to not pursue it.

[Levells]

I noticed that but decided not to abuse it.

 

Go in pay 177 points for the runes.

Then you inventory is worth 354 points.

 

was still this way at ~1:30 pm est, they must have hotfixed it though. I just paid the 354 points for mine.

[Saradomin_Mage]

 

The whole point of trimmed comp is that it is optional. The trim on the cape is cool but its not exp or stats or anything.

From that stance everything in the whole game is optional because there is nothing forcing you to do any of it besides your own desire.

 

And whilst is is true everything is optional in an mmorpg, there is a distinct difference from something very obviously setup to be completed to meet that 'completed everything' accomplishment, thus being required by it and something that literally has no implications to any other content if you choose to not pursue it.

 

Well, in my opinion some stuff should be set up to be completed easily, whereas other things can remain difficult to make them "greater" accomplishments.

 

The skilling outfits, for example, should tend to be the former (only the construction outfit/RC robes are like this) because they provide real benefits and would be useful to have. Things like the phoenix eggling or Champions' Challenge would fall into being more "prestige" achievements that you'd complete for the sake of completing and not for utility.

[Sy_Accursed]

Certainly, I'd agree with that.

 

But to give them a hybrid armour style rarity scale does not have to make them easy to get - the threshold can still be set very high to ensure it does take genuine effort to acquire unless you get lucky with RNG (eg champ scrolls could be set at around 10-20k kills of the relevant monster per scroll). It just means that instead of being endlessly at the mercy of RNG with very slim odds that can lead to them being near impossible to obtain for some, there is a 'finish line' as it were where you know at the very worst they will come.

 

And of all the suggested items that could use it I'd say champs scrolls is probably the most in need simply because it does have that finite it is 100% necessary to complete content. Whereas the others are not 100% vital, even if they provide utility - however I do think that Black Ibis, SOTG, egglings and champs scrolls (and a few others I'm sure) really ought to have the minigame hybrid rarity scaling mechanic applied.

[helring]

The trimmed comp cape is a prestige achievement though that they deliberately added a bunch of crazy stuff to. Its similar to the phoenix eggling in that it doesn't really do anything just looks cool.

[Sy_Accursed]

It is prestigious yes, but everything else required for it has relatively good odds within RNG (the various journals) or has a finite end point (full profound, esteem 1 etc). The only one with no finite point with RNG rarity rates that are so high you can kill tens of thousands and still not get it is champion scrolls.

[HunterDexter]

As someone who had to kill over 32k hobgoblins to get a champion scroll, I like the hybrid system to be implemented. :p

[helring]

As someone who had to kill over 32k hobgoblins to get a champion scroll, I like the hybrid system to be implemented. :P

 

Hobgoblins and Jogres were my worst ones. no idea how many I killed because I never kept track, but those were the two that I would repeatedly spend a couple days there then give up and come back later. Imps might also have been high because there was a long time that I'd kill any imp I saw, but eventually just spent a week by ardy monastery till I got the scroll. While I can understand the frustration, I still think that the game should have some rare and untradeable prestige drops, and champ scrolls fills that role well. Castle Wars I think is a lot worse a requirement than any of the champ scrolls. It takes longer than any of them does, and if your luck is terrible and you don't win a game then then its theoretically endless. It also encourages people to afk and not really play the game.

[Steph]

 

As someone who had to kill over 32k hobgoblins to get a champion scroll, I like the hybrid system to be implemented. :P

 

Hobgoblins and Jogres were my worst ones. no idea how many I killed because I never kept track, but those were the two that I would repeatedly spend a couple days there then give up and come back later. Imps might also have been high because there was a long time that I'd kill any imp I saw, but eventually just spent a week by ardy monastery till I got the scroll. While I can understand the frustration, I still think that the game should have some rare and untradeable prestige drops, and champ scrolls fills that role well. Castle Wars I think is a lot worse a requirement than any of the champ scrolls. It takes longer than any of them does, and if your luck is terrible and you don't win a game then then its theoretically endless. It also encourages people to afk and not really play the game.

 

 

I got imp randomly during a farm run :3

[Sy_Accursed]

 

As someone who had to kill over 32k hobgoblins to get a champion scroll, I like the hybrid system to be implemented. :P

 

Hobgoblins and Jogres were my worst ones. no idea how many I killed because I never kept track, but those were the two that I would repeatedly spend a couple days there then give up and come back later. Imps might also have been high because there was a long time that I'd kill any imp I saw, but eventually just spent a week by ardy monastery till I got the scroll. While I can understand the frustration, I still think that the game should have some rare and untradeable prestige drops, and champ scrolls fills that role well. Castle Wars I think is a lot worse a requirement than any of the champ scrolls. It takes longer than any of them does, and if your luck is terrible and you don't win a game then then its theoretically endless. It also encourages people to afk and not really play the game.

 

If you luck is terrible champs scrolls is just as endless. Plus whilst of course cwars, though still luck based, is far less endless because the odds of losing game after game after game is the minority figure; after all its only a 1 in 3 outcome that gives no progress and you have the power to influence the outcome. Where as champ scroll drops the odds of getting it are the minority because its a 1 in thousands odds of getting the drop and there is nothing you can do to make it more likely to occur it is 100% up to the RNG.

 

Also I really don't see what your point is with this anymore - in this idea no-one is arguing to make them easier or more common or less prestigious, which appear to be your main issues. The only argument is utilising the progressively more common mechanic with a suitably high threshold to mean that although they are rare and prestigious there is a tipping point where it its just you've done enough to have this item in spite of your bad luck with RNG. It's still asking for thousands upon thousands of kills and the effort and time to be put in if RNG isn't in your favour.

 

I mean does it really dent the prestige and rarity if you have to do 10-20k or more kills before it reaches the tipping point where its just like you know what have it, considering many people get it in far less kills anyway purely because they are lucky with RNG? Does the prestige really come from being outright lucky with RNG or does it come from the effort put in, and thus is just as valid even if the RNG has a curve to become more likely with more kills?

[Saradomin_Mage]

Does the prestige really come from being outright lucky with RNG or does it come from the effort put in

Both, I believe. Some items show prestige through the sheer amount of effort/game time to earn (1k, 5k Castle Wars games cape), while some show off insane RNG luck (15 champions killed, phoenix egglings). Different items show off your achievements different. Why can't some achievements be about pure effort and some about pure luck, especially when some of the latter can typically be considered non-essential content?

[Yoko Kurama]

 

Does the prestige really come from being outright lucky with RNG or does it come from the effort put in

Both, I believe. Some items show prestige through the sheer amount of effort/game time to earn (1k, 5k Castle Wars games cape), while some show off insane RNG luck (15 champions killed, phoenix egglings). Different items show off your achievements different. Why can't some achievements be about pure effort and some about pure luck, especially when some of the latter can typically be considered non-essential content?

 

 

If some were pure luck, I'd sort of accept it, but the problem is that a large part of content is pure luck based. There's nothing inherently positive about luck and I see no reason to not reduce its effects wherever possible. I am not even suggesting eradicating it, but simply reducing extreme cases. I mean, let's take some super rare item with a normal drop rate of 1/500. Some people will get it within a few kills, some within tens of kills, some within hundreds, some within thousands and some might not get it at all after thousands of kills. If there were built in safeguards which stipulated that after say 5,000 kills you'd automatically at least get one of said item, I don't see how it diminishes the prestige or the excitement of the item for anyone, especially people who already got it. There's no reason why we should accept luck; as long as it is within our power, we should subject it to more reasonable outcomes. It's sort of like medicine or health. In a natural setting without modern medicine, infastructure, and technology and knowledge, some people will do okay, some very well, and some very badly. That's how it was historically as well, and it was simply a fact of life - there's no reason why we should have accepted that, and I'm glad we didn't. Now Runescape is obviously just a game and nowhere near as serious, but the same principle applies.

 

Again, I am not just realizing it now because of my experience with PP, I realized this long ago throughout my experience with PVM and the experiences of people I have met throughout the years. It's something that's always in the back of my mind when it comes to RS and I talk/complain about it when it's topical.

 

TL;DR: Retain some reasonable amount of luck based things, it can be fun and exciting, but have some reasonable built-in safeguards in place.

 

---

 

On another note:

 

 

Just got my Ibis and SOTG earlier today. It took me very long to get it, whereas several people I know got it on day 1 within just 2 hours, and several people I know have yet to get it despite some 20-35 hours spent. Kind of sad.

 

Still, a victory of the RNG and  the pernicious forces of pure chance.

[Sy_Accursed]

I don't think its bad for some content and achievements to be pure luck - we have plenty of that with seismic etc. drops and their like or the vorago pet or cresbots.

 

I just think some things should not be entirely pure luck when they are clearly setup to be a requirement for an obvious goal the game creates and their odds are ridiculously slim. Yes trim may be 'non-essential' but it is very clearly setup as a goal that game pretty much drives you towards and I don't think its right to lock such a goal behind a wall of pure RNG luck with a rarity spike so high you can kill thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands and get nowhere with it. Especially when they have previously mentioned they specifically do not want requirements to be luck based, like getting rare drops, they want them to be about skill and dedication and such.

 

It's not like this suggestion is about blanket coating everything everywhere with a finish line point that overrides pure RNG. It's about a few specific examples that are supposed to be utility items or are supposed to be task to clear for a goal the game creates that shows dedication and hardwork and not luck. That for whatever reason are overly rare and ought to have a point where you've done enough to get them if RNG hasn't shined on you.

 

Egglings arguably are an example I introduced that could go either way, only reason I mentioned them is because to me they are supposed to be a cute, fun reward from relatively low-level content so to me it seems a bit ott that you can spend years going there day after day without getting them.

 

Champion scrolls on the other hand I just think are wrong. The insane rarity level with RNG makes them so impossible without luck, yet they are setup up very clearly to be a necessary goal to 'complete' the game and that completion goal isn't supposed to be about luck by Jagex's own admission. Not to mention Champions Challenege as a premise is supposed to be quite low level content - it's tied to a very low level guild and a range of low level monsters entirely inappropriate for higher levels to be killing. By those merits it ought to be a heck of a lot more common, yet that is not what is being asked for. That rarity and prestige is being left, despite the questionable design of it, it's just about taking something setup as a goal by the game itself for an accomplishment that is supposed to be about hard work and skill, not sheer dumb luck, and giving it a point where enough is enough.

 

I mean I'm at a point now where I've collectively killed well over 250k of the scroll dropping monsters - I've been to ghouls and demons and imps and skeles and goblins and jorges and mummies and giants and all the rest and nothing, zip, nil. Why should someone who waltzed in and killed a few hundred and got scrolls from pure luck be able to achieve a status symbol of hardwork and dedication for that little effort whilst I'm locked out of it despite putting in many more hours of work to that end? I mean once I get all the other reqs cleared at what point does it become a problem? What if I'm 3 years down the line and having played 3-5 hours a day on average every day for all that time I still don't have any of them? Is that still ok because its just bad luck and therefore I can't achieve the jagex created goal post of an achievement for hard work and dedication?

 

If you worked in an office and there was a hard work bonus at the end of each month for employees who completed 1 gold report, but reports were randomly assigned by a computer would it be ok if Bob got a bonus having completed 3 reports whilst you had done 50?

 

In a self contain bubble sure there is nothing wrong with the prestige the RNG rarity brings to champion scrolls, but unfortunately it does no exist in a self-contained bubble. It is setup by jagex as a specific requirement to obtain an accomplishment that is supposed to present hard work and dedication and not sheer dumb luck and in that context it is a problem to wall out people who work the hardest for it simply because of bad luck with RNG.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Well, I guess the difference is that you view trim as being a reasonable goal that you are entitled to obtain :P It's about completing the game, and honestly that can include effort based content as well as luck based content (which is also about effort anyway). Champions' Challenge was fine as it was before, being a pretty pointless side goal you would do just because you wanted to achieve something, but now that it's a requirement for a trimmed cape it's suddenly the most horrible RNG game ever and should be changed?

 

The Champions' Challenge is tied to the Champions' Guild as well as low levelled monsters, sure, but do you really think the developer intended for it to be low-levelled content you could incidentally complete along the way when he typed in the drop odds for champion scrolls?

 

There is no need to beat all 15 champions or to unlock the trimmed cape. If you're aiming to do either of these, though, maybe you should just rise to the challenge and take on the RNG.

 

P.S. How are you tracking your number of monster kills? Bonecrusher? HP XP? I honestly doubt you've actually killed anywhere near 250k monsters with only 20M Constitution XP.

[Sy_Accursed]

When you consider the low level of things such as skeles its easy to kill large numbers with limited hp xp gains.

For example 250k lvl 22 skeles or imps is only just past 2mil xp.

 

And I'm just tracking it by loose figures - I know the rough kills per hour of the mobs I hunt and I know how many hours I've spent there.

 

Also I don't see whats so wrong about viewing trim as a reasonable goal you are entitled to obtain when it is specifically coded into the game to be a goal to obtain. Trying to say something specifically coded in the game as an objective shouldn't be a reasonable thing for people to expect to obtain is utterly counterintuitive to the purpose of creating it. If the game developers have specifically put it in-game as a goal I see absolutely no reason it should not be seen as a reasonable goal and something you expect to be able to obtain if you put the work in.

 

That's like suggesting its unreasonable to expect the final boss, mission or track in a game to be beatable by anything other than a RNG opportunity that makes it doable 1 in 50,000 times, but the other 49,999 out of 50,000 times makes it impossible to actually beat.

[Saradomin_Mage]

But you feel a sense of entitlement, that you killed X number of monsters and deserve completion of the requirement, instead of just going back to the grind and hoping the RNG decides to finally give you a scroll. Some goals in video games are by their nature insane and may take forever to obtain (Shinies in Pokemon...). The trim requirement is nothing but a cosmetic, statless upgrade and so can accommodate a few utterly crazy requirements, because it doesn't add to your experience much in anyway, just as shinies in Pokemon do nothing different compared to their normal counterparts.

 

Defeating a final boss in another video game is an entirely different matter, because it usually lets you unlock post-game content, give you some perks on your next playthrough and wraps up the storyline. Trim is completely cosmetic.

[Urza285]

I wish there was more to the road trip... after day 10 of the month its pretty much done. Oh well its better than hearing peopke complain they couldnt finish.