BTS July 2014

[Hedgehog]

Well, here's the thing: it doesn't make the 2h weapons an upgrade. It just asserts the mechanism that they can only enter the game after 1h weapons and we've had 1h weapons for a long time. The only harm is that the exclusivity of the boss is increased. To that, I reply, "Stop being a little [bleep] and make 100m".

[Quasar]

Seriously.  It's not that difficult to get a little money together.  And my guess is that after the 90 2hs have been out a while, they'll probably be fairly affordable.  High level content has always been most restricted - and most profitable, on release.  That's the reward you get for having high level stats and equipment.  

[Ammako]

Off-hand dragon throwing axes are super cheap on G.E., that doesn't mean it's a good thing that they require a Grandmaster quest + killing Lv. 180 monsters for them.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Araxxor will probably require level 90 weapons in the same way that Vorago/Legiones/KK/QBD require them.

[Ammako]

Legiones/KK/QBD don't really require Lv. 90 weapons, though.

 

Legiones and KK have 85 Defence, QBD has 80 Defence.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Exactly.

[Wkw]

KK came out and therre were only chaotics in the game. It requires lvl90 weapons to kill. What?

 

Ascensions came out and they required lvl 90 weapons to kill. The only lvl 90 weapons in the game were melee, which were useless here. What?

[SwreeTak]

Legiones/KK/QBD don't really require Lv. 90 weapons, though.

 

Legiones and KK have 85 Defence, QBD has 80 Defence.

 

Vorago doesn't either. It is just that it makes kills a lot faster ;) With the proper strategy and perhaps a few more guys on a team Vorago can still be beaten. Same goes for ROTS.

As for 1h t90s already having been in the game for a long time and that the boss therefore very well could require t90 weapons I got to say that I disagree. t90 gear should be obtainable by using t80 gear. It simply is logical. RuneScape is about progression, and to me owning two 1h t90 as a requirement to get a 2h t90 weapon just doesn't make sense. It would be fully okay if it was t99, t98, t97 or anything over t90, but now when it is at exactly the same tier it makes sense to 'just' have it require t80. To have a t90 weapon dropping boss require t90 weaponary would be like having a new hatchet, with the same speed of cutting as the dragon one, require a dragon hatchet already to be obtained (for no other reason than just that). It just doesn't make sense when the whole game is about progression via leveling skills, progressing from novice quests to grandmaster ones and using better and better gear according to tiers.

[Saradomin_Mage]

KK came out and therre were only chaotics in the game. It requires lvl90 weapons to kill. What?

 

Ascensions came out and they required lvl 90 weapons to kill. The only lvl 90 weapons in the game were melee, which were useless here. What?

Exactly. You guys are missing the point of my post. It's possible to kill all the aforementioned bosses with level 80 weapons. It's possible to kill anything with level 80 weapons. You don't suddenly drop to 0% accuracy when you're not using level 90 weapons. No boss in the game requires level 90 weapons to be killed.

 

To have a t90 weapon dropping boss require t90 weaponary would be like having a new hatchet, with the same speed of cutting as the dragon one, require a dragon hatchet already to be obtained (for no other reason than just that).

Actually this description fits the Imcando pickaxe. How sad.

[Wkw]

 

Legiones/KK/QBD don't really require Lv. 90 weapons, though.

 

Legiones and KK have 85 Defence, QBD has 80 Defence.

 

Vorago doesn't either. It is just that it makes kills a lot faster ;) With the proper strategy and perhaps a few more guys on a team Vorago can still be beaten. Same goes for ROTS.

As for 1h t90s already having been in the game for a long time and that the boss therefore very well could require t90 weapons I got to say that I disagree. t90 gear should be obtainable by using t80 gear. It simply is logical. RuneScape is about progression, and to me owning two 1h t90 as a requirement to get a 2h t90 weapon just doesn't make sense. It would be fully okay if it was t99, t98, t97 or anything over t90, but now when it is at exactly the same tier it makes sense to 'just' have it require t80. To have a t90 weapon dropping boss require t90 weaponary would be like having a new hatchet, with the same speed of cutting as the dragon one, require a dragon hatchet already to be obtained (for no other reason than just that). It just doesn't make sense when the whole game is about progression via leveling skills, progressing from novice quests to grandmaster ones and using better and better gear according to tiers.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Pre-eoc, Nex was very much the endgame group boss. She dropped lvl80 armor, and more or less REQUIRED lvl 80 weapons (chaotics) to kill

Now, she is still very much a lvl 80 boss, but it can be done with a variety of lvl 70 or 80 gear with a group, as it was intended.

 

Likewise, KK is a t90 boss, and quite clearly he was able to be done with t80 weapons. Obviously, because on release there WERE no t90 weapons in the game!

 

Ascension bosses, as they can only be killed with range, the first ascension bows that were made were gotten as drops by people with t80 weapons.

 

Vorago, because there were already two sets of T90 weapons in the game, was initially done with a mixture of drygores and ascension bows, and later seismics. Because of timeline progression and a difficulty ramp up, I would consider vorago requiring t90 on paper, but t80 works just as well in a larger group.

 

ROTS, t90 melee armor and shield are dropped, and it is centered more on survivability and twitch reflexes than DPS mostly. It can be done with t80, but t90 makes it easier

 

 

Just because something is super easy with t90 weapons, does not mean the boss was designed to be easy from the getgo. Go try to kill bandos without turmoil, in barrows armor and a whip. That is what he is designed for. Powercreep does not dictate what is supposed to be easy and what is supposed to be hard.

[Miss Lioness]

And they still keep in insisting to buff Nex. I know it is farmed to hell by people who have T90 weapons. Those are the same people complaining that Nex is no longer a challenge or anything. It is only logical they don't pose as much of a challenge as before as it is intended to be defeated by the use of T75 gear (now in eoc anyways).

[Hedgehog]

The difference between having a boss require level 90 weapons and having a boss not require level 90 weapons is just the dynamic of whether or not players should own both or either.

 

Araxxor does not require level 90 1h weapons:

• Players should own level 90 1h weapons OR level 90 2h weapons

Araxxor requires level 90 1h weapons:

• Players should own level 90 1h weapons AND level 90 2h weapons

That is, if you plan on having level 90 2h weapons useful for anything that level 90 1h weapons aren't useful for (i.e. niche uses), then Araxxor has to require level 90 1h weapons.

 

This works by giving a choice to the players. If Araxxor can be killed with level 80 weapons, then the player does not need level 90 1h weapons. Therefore, they can choose to get level 90 2h weapons without first getting level 90 1h weapons. Requiring level 90 1h weapons to kill Araxxor effectively creates a lock preventing an OR relationship. It does make it harder to own both, but that's not a bad thing at all.

 

If level 90 1h weapons are out of your reach, tough luck. Go kill Nex.

[Alg]

How delightfully rigid. 

[Saradomin_Mage]

Don't think there's anything wrong with Araxxor not requiring level 90 1h weapons. Level 90 1h weapons will still allow you to take KK greens/solo Nex/bomb tank at Vorago because of the ability to use a shield along with them. Players will always need 1h weapons for those reasons.

[Sy_Accursed]

To me in terms of requirements it is quite simple:

A monster requiring gear equal to or higher than the gear it drops is a stupid design because it is supposed to be about progression and therefore you should be able to effectively complete anything supplying that next tier with 1 tier lower.

 

@Hedgehog above I fail to see the logic there at all

If Araaxor does not require level 90 weapons the player should own level 80 weapons or higher.

If Araaxor does require level 90 weapons the player has to own level 90 weapons.

 

Araaxor needing t90 1h doesn't some how mean you should own both 1h and 2h, because its not creating a use for 2hs.

 

Also the whole point of eoc and the tiers being equal is to give the players choice - we are SUPPOSED to be able to decide whether to get t90 1hs or t90 2hs and not have a need for both. Creating a lockout to make getting the 2hs (Arguable the worse ones) require the 1hs would just be pandering to high levels, already have it alls, who want a monopoly on all the new top gear. Which is not something we should be aspiring towards, especially in a case where magic is already boned over in t90s by extreme exclusivity.

[Ammako]

 

Legiones/KK/QBD don't really require Lv. 90 weapons, though.

 

Legiones and KK have 85 Defence, QBD has 80 Defence.

 

Vorago doesn't either. It is just that it makes kills a lot faster ;) With the proper strategy and perhaps a few more guys on a team Vorago can still be beaten. Same goes for ROTS.

As for 1h t90s already having been in the game for a long time and that the boss therefore very well could require t90 weapons I got to say that I disagree. t90 gear should be obtainable by using t80 gear. It simply is logical. RuneScape is about progression, and to me owning two 1h t90 as a requirement to get a 2h t90 weapon just doesn't make sense. It would be fully okay if it was t99, t98, t97 or anything over t90, but now when it is at exactly the same tier it makes sense to 'just' have it require t80. To have a t90 weapon dropping boss require t90 weaponary would be like having a new hatchet, with the same speed of cutting as the dragon one, require a dragon hatchet already to be obtained (for no other reason than just that). It just doesn't make sense when the whole game is about progression via leveling skills, progressing from novice quests to grandmaster ones and using better and better gear according to tiers.

 

Yeah well obviously it doesn't *require* them in the sense that if you don't have them you'll never get kills.

But Vorago has Lv. 90 Defence, btw.

[Steph]

I guess my concern is everyone pointing out nex, kk, vorago are doable with t 80 etc with a good team but this is a solo boss with the duo option being even harder.

[Saradomin_Mage]

QBD is a solo boss and it's doable with t70.

[Urza285]

Honestly you could do qbd in rune... its all about ease really. Im guessing you could learn araxxor fairly well with nex/ports and t80 weapons. It should be expected that youll have a fairly hard time on him though.

 

Things like nex, rots, etc. Are designed for teams. That means more aoe, higher hitting attacks to accomodate chances that other players wont get targeted. Honestly thats probably why nex keeps getting touched up on so much. She is so close to the solo vs team line. Jagex doesnt want her to be necessarily soloable, but doesnt want to go all out against that option. Thats mostly because they have a motto of letting players define their play styles.

 

Edit: i wish we knew when araxxor was coming!

[Nous]

Glad jagex isn't listening to people complaining.  Most bosses are killable with bad gear, gear isn't going to make you any better if you have no skill.  I did a vorago kill, 5 man, with abyssal wand and orb to prove it could be done, and I still do rago with abyssals because I can't afford seismics.  There is no proof that Araxxor is going to require anything.  And even if it did, drygores have been out how long now? Their price has dropped so dramatically.  I used to kill QBD with chaotics until I got drygores, and that was 2 weeks ago.  High level updates will never be easier with low level gear.

[Ammako]

Abyssal orb also doesn't affect your accuracy at all if you're using abilities. It's only like less than 100 damage difference between Abyssal orb and Seismic singularity.

Did you mean Abyssal wand + orb (and, say gano armor)?

[Nous]

Abyssal orb also doesn't affect your accuracy at all if you're using abilities. It's only like less than 100 damage difference between Abyssal orb and Seismic singularity.

Did you mean Abyssal wand + orb (and, say gano armor)?

Yes wand and orb.  And gano? Come on man, I might be poor but I won't resort to using that crap.  Used seasinger to get in, switched to void.

[Ammako]

The point wasn't to say you were poor or not, the point was to show if yes or not it was do-able with sub-par equipment...

[Nous]

The point wasn't to say you were poor or not, the point was to show if yes or not it was do-able with sub-par equipment...

I don't see why not.  Again, it's really up to player skill more than equipment stats.  Vorago p5 is all up to the bomb tank not being crap and mitigating as much damage as possible, everyone clearing bleeds, everyone staying away from md, everyone doing what they need to do, and the mauler mauling in time.

 

People like to blame their inability to PvM on having little gp.  If they were given max gear, they still couldn't PvM because gear != skill.  And of course, better gear makes it easier but that's always going to be the case.  Complaining about it does nothing.

[Veiva]

 

The point wasn't to say you were poor or not, the point was to show if yes or not it was do-able with sub-par equipment...

I don't see why not.  Again, it's really up to player skill more than equipment stats.  Vorago p5 is all up to the bomb tank not being crap and mitigating as much damage as possible, everyone clearing bleeds, everyone staying away from md, everyone doing what they need to do, and the mauler mauling in time.

 

People like to blame their inability to PvM on having little gp.  If they were given max gear, they still couldn't PvM because gear != skill.  And of course, better gear makes it easier but that's always going to be the case.  Complaining about it does nothing.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Even if you don't have good gear, you can go to 'lesser' bosses. For example, I started killing Toremented Demons about a month ago with a bank worth of under 20m or so, and used a staff of light + royal crossbow. After about 10 hours, I was managing 90-100 KPH--and now, I have ascensions + virtus wand/book + bought 99 prayer (from ~96?) and 99 herb (from 96) and manage just nigh of 120 KPH. Yea, I've logged upwards of 115 hours, but that's the sad (yet necessary) bit about a MMO, especially RuneScape--the grind. Regardless, I've made upwards of 750m from one month of Tormented Demons and I started with crap gear. If I can do it, anyone can (and don't act all like 'I have a life!' because I do too!).

 

I used to think that people who got lucky were the rich ones, not anymore. It takes dedication 99 out of 100 times.