Quit flaming.

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

 

 

 

The same things we debate today have been discussed for thousands of years.

And they will for thousands more, why our kids miss all the fun!

could we please get back on topic and off the flaming, there is such a thing as pm'ing you know

 

 

 

anyway, either way you look at it, neither side can prove nor disprove the other, just like the mysteries of a cheese sandwich........

could we please get back on topic and off the flaming, there is such a thing as pm'ing you know

 

 

 

Er... you mean the flaming that took place four days ago?

could we please get back on topic and off the flaming, there is such a thing as pm'ing you know

 

 

 

Er... you mean the flaming that took place four days ago?

 

 

 

the post was close to the dreaded 2nd page and wanted to keep it going

This appears to be the new religion thread so I'll ask here.

 

 

 

Could any of you christians or well-read people in general reccomend a good book on the subject of prayer (as it relates to the christian belief system and the Bible)? To give you an idea of what kind of information I'm looking for let me explain the problem I'm having.

 

 

 

Every prayer request I've ever heard are for things like for people to get home safely from their trip, for people who are sick or in the hospital, or "our country" and things like that; basically for things where the situation turns out positive just as many times if prayer is used as opposed to no prayer. But my real problem is that everybody at my church had been praying for my pastors neice for awhile-she died. My pastor said he doesn't know why, he doesn't know God's plan. What I want to know is why don't they pray for her to come back from the dead? There is a girl in my church who was born with 8 fingers. How come they don't pray for her fingers to grow back. A guy lost half his left leg in a war. How come they don't pray for his leg to grow back? If prayer really works how come every prayer request I've ever heard in any church is for "safe things"? Is it that I've just never met a christian with enough true faith to pray for something that would require a bona-fide miracle to happen? Or does the Bible just not allow for things like that?

 

 

 

I hope you can kind of see what kind of information I'm looking for.

This appears to be the new religion thread so I'll ask here.

 

 

 

Could any of you christians or well-read people in general reccomend a good book on the subject of prayer (as it relates to the christian belief system and the Bible)? To give you an idea of what kind of information I'm looking for let me explain the problem I'm having.

 

 

 

Every prayer request I've ever heard are for things like for people to get home safely from their trip, for people who are sick or in the hospital, or "our country" and things like that; basically for things where the situation turns out positive just as many times if prayer is used as opposed to no prayer. But my real problem is that everybody at my church had been praying for my pastors neice for awhile-she died. My pastor said he doesn't know why, he doesn't know God's plan. What I want to know is why don't they pray for her to come back from the ? There is a in my church who was born with 8 fingers. How come they don't pray for her fingers to grow back. A guy lost half his left leg in a war. How come they don't pray for his leg to grow back? If prayer really works how come every prayer request I've ever heard in any church is for "safe things"? Is it that I've just never met a christian with enough true faith to pray for something that would require a bona-fide miracle to happen? Or does the Bible just not allow for things like that?

 

 

 

I hope you can kind of see what kind of information I'm looking for.

 

 

 

I wish I knew a good book for you, but I don't. I'll ask my youth pastor tonight and get back to you. He currently doing a message series on prayer, so I'm sure he's got some good books.

 

 

 

As to why Christians only pray for 'safe' things, I would say it is because hardly any of them have true faith. They're afraid to ask for the big things because they don't believe God can do them, or because they are afraid their faith will be proven wrong. Christians today don't believe all of what the Bible says of God; rather they view God as small and safe.

when you start trying to 'save' people

 

 

 

So there's something "wrong" about caring about people whom you loving, and therefore caring about their salvation? If someone believes when they die some are going to Heaven, and some are going to Hell - and they want the person they love to be in Heaven with them - that's wrong?

 

In that case whats wrong with caring for someones mental health who talks to invisible beings, and wanting this person they love to be rational?

when you start trying to 'save' people

 

 

 

So there's something "wrong" about caring about people whom you loving, and therefore caring about their salvation? If someone believes when they die some are going to Heaven, and some are going to Hell - and they want the person they love to be in Heaven with them - that's wrong?

 

In that case whats wrong with caring for someones mental health who talks to invisible beings, and wanting this person they love to be rational?

 

 

 

GhostRanger has shown himself to be much more rational than you (he back up his opinions with evidence and logic). It doesn't take a genius to realize that he is in great mental health.

 

GhostRanger has shown himself to be much more rational than you (he back up his opinions with evidence and logic). It doesn't take a genius to realize that he is in great mental health.

 

Thanks for demonstrating the hypocrisy of your belief system, you're right it doesn't take a genius just a poor judge.

This appears to be the new religion thread so I'll ask here.

 

 

 

Could any of you christians or well-read people in general reccomend a good book on the subject of prayer (as it relates to the christian belief system and the Bible)? To give you an idea of what kind of information I'm looking for let me explain the problem I'm having.

 

 

 

Every prayer request I've ever heard are for things like for people to get home safely from their trip, for people who are sick or in the hospital, or "our country" and things like that; basically for things where the situation turns out positive just as many times if prayer is used as opposed to no prayer. But my real problem is that everybody at my church had been praying for my pastors neice for awhile-she died. My pastor said he doesn't know why, he doesn't know God's plan. What I want to know is why don't they pray for her to come back from the dead? There is a girl in my church who was born with 8 fingers. How come they don't pray for her fingers to grow back. A guy lost half his left leg in a war. How come they don't pray for his leg to grow back? If prayer really works how come every prayer request I've ever heard in any church is for "safe things"? Is it that I've just never met a christian with enough true faith to pray for something that would require a bona-fide miracle to happen? Or does the Bible just not allow for things like that?

 

 

 

I hope you can kind of see what kind of information I'm looking for.

 

 

 

Well, you've gotta be careful on those kinds of things. If you're looking for healings, then you don't really need prayer. I mean, pray all you want, but the Bible never says that prayer is the ONLY way for someone to be healed.

 

 

 

Of course, you can also start reading Copeland and other "faith healers" who are more into scientology and Hegel than they are rooted in the Bible. At least to me.

 

 

 

I would have to agree with Astra in saying that so few Christians are dead. Dead spiritually, that is. They don't talk to God, they certainly don't hear Him speaking, and just have Him there to help them do well on tests or, as a courtesy, to help them get back safely.

 

 

 

I enjoyed your question, but, alas, I do not have any books on prayer either. I'll have to get back to you on that. Let me offer a few comments on the subject, though.

 

 

 

1. Healing requires faith. How much faith? Well, Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed which is one of the smallest seeds on the planet. Obviously not much, which is why I don't buy into these "need more faith" people.

 

2. The Bible says that if one is sick, they should approach the elders, be annointed with oil, and they shall be healed. Now there are a few rules in that case, like it being within God's will and having the correct heart. God's certainly not this legalistic, put in the right numbers and *pop* comes the thing you're looking for. He's not like an ATM machine, for sure.

 

 

 

But I do know one thing: I've seen healings right in front of my eyes. Do they happen? Definately.

In that case whats wrong with caring for someones mental health who talks to invisible beings, and wanting this person they love to be rational?

 

 

 

Heh. I'm not quite sure I understand you. I explained why it's rational for Christians wanting to be with their loved ones in Heaven. Where I'm confused is when you made the assumption that I said it's wrong for an atheist wanting their loved one to be an atheist? I don't believe I ever said to Anesthesia or anyone else that I think it's wrong to care for someone's mental health if they talk to invisible beings, or that it's wrong to want that person to be rational - so I'm very confused as to why you're asking me that question. It would be just as normal for you to want your loved one to believe the way you do, as I would want my loved one to believe as I do - each for their own reasons.

 

 

 

And thank you Insane. I appreciate the defense when someone makes claims about my mental health. Silly people will say silly things I guess... :P

In that case whats wrong with caring for someones mental health who talks to invisible beings, and wanting this person they love to be rational?

 

 

 

Heh. I'm not quite sure I understand you. I explained why it's rational for Christians wanting to be with their loved ones in Heaven. Where I'm confused is when you made the assumption that I said it's wrong for an atheist wanting their loved one to be an atheist?

 

And I explained why someone might not want their loved ones mental health jeopardized, two opposites of the same issue; respecting ones beliefs.

 

I don't believe I ever said to Anesthesia or anyone else that I think it's wrong to care for someone's mental health if they talk to invisible beings, or that it's wrong to want that person to be rational - so I'm very confused as to why you're asking me that question.

 

Why is it confusing? Your original question was about wanting someone to believe and talk to invisible beings. Now the reversal of the question is asked and you find it confusing?

 

It would be just as normal for you to want your loved one to believe the way you do, as I would want my loved one to believe as I do - each for their own reasons.

 

Because you want them to be like you, or because you respect them?

a lot

 

 

 

No you're misunderstanding again. Anesthesia specifically made a comment about Christians trying to "save" atheists and I responded. You then responded to me with, "in that case, what's wrong with..." indicating that I said there is something wrong with atheists doing the opposite.

 

 

 

I never indicated. There's no need to pose the opposite question to me in the manner you did because I never indicated otherwise. You just made an assumption by saying "in that case, what's wrong with..." because I never indicated that there was something wrong with it.

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in god as I see no rational way it can happen but I am open to religion and I am also open to taking aspect of seperate religions and using them in my life to make myself a better person.

 

 

 

Politics I will state I dislike Bush but then I'm Australian so what does it really matter me, I like my prime minister even if he is a bit of a sheep sometimes. I'm pro-war, for abortion and against the incorporation of religion into schools.

 

 

 

On a side note I always beleived that prayer before bed was something to re-enforce something into the prayers mind. Strengthen their inner resolve through prayer to make themselves a better or more positive person. I don't pray but I can actually see practical sides to it.

I am 100% athiest and proud of it. I believe alot of people are becoming way to conservative these days and I partly blame religion for that. It's not really my problem though, if they want to miss out on lots of great experiences in live just because there "god" tells them not too thats fine.

 

 

 

The fact of gay marriage is all fine and dandy, let the gays do what they want, it angers me to see politics trying to interfere with people's personal life. It's things like that that make this country appear to be turning into a totalitarianist nation, slowly, but surely. This is also because of the type of politicians we have in the government right now. bottom line, politics and religion should never mix.Unfortunatly, this is beginning to happen as political leaders such as George Bush have come into power. They are screwing up america by trying to push their beliefs on people with things such as the banning of ga y marrieage. This is why I tend to support the democrats way more than the republicans.

 

 

 

I am anti-abortion, for life begins at conception and murder is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it not better to allow someone to lead no life, than to condemn them to a bad life?

 

 

 

 

 

What I'm trying to say is, if you can't handle having a child, it's better to get rid of him/her before it's too late.

I got say i pretty much an atheist with a strong questioning side, i have to understand something before i put my faith in something, I.E creation vs Evolution.

 

 

 

Politicaly i am very liberal and tend to believe in limited government. to but it bluntly ill quote my little sister "tax suck, why doesn't the government get a job" :lol:

This appears to be the new religion thread so I'll ask here.

 

 

 

Could any of you christians or well-read people in general reccomend a good book on the subject of prayer (as it relates to the christian belief system and the Bible)? To give you an idea of what kind of information I'm looking for let me explain the problem I'm having.

 

 

 

Every prayer request I've ever heard are for things like for people to get home safely from their trip, for people who are sick or in the hospital, or "our country" and things like that; basically for things where the situation turns out positive just as many times if prayer is used as opposed to no prayer. But my real problem is that everybody at my church had been praying for my pastors neice for awhile-she died. My pastor said he doesn't know why, he doesn't know God's plan. What I want to know is why don't they pray for her to come back from the dead? There is a girl in my church who was born with 8 fingers. How come they don't pray for her fingers to grow back. A guy lost half his left leg in a war. How come they don't pray for his leg to grow back? If prayer really works how come every prayer request I've ever heard in any church is for "safe things"? Is it that I've just never met a christian with enough true faith to pray for something that would require a bona-fide miracle to happen? Or does the Bible just not allow for things like that?

 

 

 

I hope you can kind of see what kind of information I'm looking for.

 

the things that you suggest here could be seen as "selfish" in a sense requests.

 

 

 

a girl coming back from the dead serves only the purpose of the people who miss her and want to see her again, when she very well may be much better where she is, or had already done a good amount in life.

 

 

 

a guy lost his leg in a war, he went to war, he knew the risks and he suffered. you can't just go around losing limbs and praying for them back, it doesn't work that way. prayer is realistic too, you pray for needs, not wants.

 

 

 

a girl was born with 8 fingers, but that doesn't mean she can't live through life can she? she is able to function in society, fingers aren't the most important thing in the world.

 

 

 

is it possible for these things to happen though? yes, but i doubt anyone has enough faith. faith is beyond thinking, it is knowing. i believe prayers are answered when you know they will be answered, this is easy to do when praying for a sick person to become well, or a loved one to return home safely. however, to be in that same frame of mind of "knowing" something will happen when asking for miraculous things to happen would be near impossible.

 

 

 

i know more of the Christian than the Judaistic belief on prayers, so in due time i may be able to respond to this more fully and accurately.

This appears to be the new religion thread so I'll ask here.

 

 

 

Could any of you christians or well-read people in general reccomend a good book on the subject of prayer (as it relates to the christian belief system and the Bible)? To give you an idea of what kind of information I'm looking for let me explain the problem I'm having.

 

 

 

Every prayer request I've ever heard are for things like for people to get home safely from their trip, for people who are sick or in the hospital, or "our country" and things like that; basically for things where the situation turns out positive just as many times if prayer is used as opposed to no prayer. But my real problem is that everybody at my church had been praying for my pastors neice for awhile-she died. My pastor said he doesn't know why, he doesn't know God's plan. What I want to know is why don't they pray for her to come back from the dead? There is a girl in my church who was born with 8 fingers. How come they don't pray for her fingers to grow back. A guy lost half his left leg in a war. How come they don't pray for his leg to grow back? If prayer really works how come every prayer request I've ever heard in any church is for "safe things"? Is it that I've just never met a christian with enough true faith to pray for something that would require a bona-fide miracle to happen? Or does the Bible just not allow for things like that?

 

 

 

I hope you can kind of see what kind of information I'm looking for.

 

the things that you suggest here could be seen as "selfish" in a sense requests.

 

 

 

a girl coming back from the dead serves only the purpose of the people who miss her and want to see her again, when she very well may be much better where she is, or had already done a good amount in life.

 

 

 

a guy lost his leg in a war, he went to war, he knew the risks and he suffered. you can't just go around losing limbs and praying for them back, it doesn't work that way. prayer is realistic too, you pray for needs, not wants.

 

 

 

a girl was born with 8 fingers, but that doesn't mean she can't live through life can she? she is able to function in society, fingers aren't the most important thing in the world.

 

 

 

is it possible for these things to happen though? yes, but i doubt anyone has enough faith. faith is beyond thinking, it is knowing. i believe prayers are answered when you know they will be answered, this is easy to do when praying for a sick person to become well, or a loved one to return home safely. however, to be in that same frame of mind of "knowing" something will happen when asking for miraculous things to happen would be near impossible.

 

 

 

i know more of the Christian than the Judaistic belief on prayers, so in due time i may be able to respond to this more fully and accurately.

 

 

 

I don't mean to be argumentative or rude, but we do need some clarification. For one thing, what's wrong with wanting the best?

 

 

 

8 fingers isn't the best...but God tells His children to ask Him. Jesus said that we "have not because we ask not." Doesn't that mean we should petition the throne of God with our prayer requests?

 

 

 

Then, at least, the ball's in God's court. Now He, in His immeasurable sovereignty, can decide whether or not to grant His children's requests. After all, Jesus healed all who came to Him asking Him to heal their needs.

 

 

 

Arguing that God won't heal someone with only one leg or 8 fingers saying "they can live, can't they?" just seems very harsh to me. And God is a good God, like a good parent. They won't spoil their kids, they will correct their kids, but they are good parents who bless their kids.

Isn't the better arguement for why God allows suffering is because we cannot truly understand his ideas?

Isn't the better arguement for why God allows suffering is because we cannot truly understand his ideas?

 

 

 

Humans allow suffering, it is entirely in our hands. We allow for starvation and war to occur on this planet.

Isn't the better arguement for why God allows suffering is because we cannot truly understand his ideas?

 

 

 

Humans allow suffering, it is entirely in our hands. We allow for starvation and war to occur on this planet.

 

 

 

yes, but this is in the eyes of a theist. Theists believe that since god is omnipotent. He has the power to stop suffering. But he doesn't - Explanation, we don't understand god's intentions

Isn't the better arguement for why God allows suffering is because we cannot truly understand his ideas?

 

 

 

Humans allow suffering, it is entirely in our hands. We allow for starvation and war to occur on this planet.

 

 

 

yes, but this is in the eyes of a theist. Theists believe that since god is omnipotent. He has the power to stop suffering. But he doesn't - Explanation, we don't understand god's intentions

 

 

 

Or maybe suffering and problems make life worth living, if you can believe it. Can you imagine a world where nothing goes wrong? I think that would be extremely boring and there would be no way to develop character and life skills, etc.

 

 

 

There's also the free will argument but that one's been beaten to death.