Grrr - I was unfairly muted/banned!

[Bobbington]

No black marks are not removed after a time period, however there are cases when an account is reviewed for one reason or another and things may get changed, obviousally I do not know any reasons for why this is done..... but when it comes certain events time is probaly taken into account.

 

 

 

*please note I dont know what I am talking about here.... this is a guess*

 

 

 

I would assume for example if a player commited an offence or two, and then several years passed with no further offences, and then suddenly another offence was commited and a player was banned. I would guess this player would be more likely to get a second chance appeal than an account who has collected all their marks over a short period of time.

 

 

 

Again though this is just a guess and would seem sensible from how I see Jagex as a business.... they dont particually hold grudges, they just dont forget.

[dlainedee]

No black marks are not removed after a time period, however there are cases when an account is reviewed for one reason or another and things may get changed, obviousally I do not know any reasons for why this is done..... but when it comes certain events time is probaly taken into account.

 

 

 

*please note I dont know what I am talking about here.... this is a guess*

 

 

 

I would assume for example if a player commited an offence or two, and then several years passed with no further offences, and then suddenly another offence was commited and a player was banned. I would guess this player would be more likely to get a second chance appeal than an account who has collected all their marks over a short period of time.

 

 

 

Again though this is just a guess and would seem sensible from how I see Jagex as a business.... they dont particually hold grudges, they just dont forget.

 

 

 

No offense, and you do seem like a very sweet person, but I'm not after guessing. I'm not sure I understand why a mod wouldn't know...

 

 

 

If there was a way to contact and have a conversation with Staff, I would go directly to the PTB with all my concerns.

[Bobbington]

Basically it's confidentiality, they will not explain the iner workings of the company as it raises problems if infomation where to be leaked to those who would abuse it.

 

 

 

If it became common knoweledg what punishments when what what crime, or under what circumstances lead to removal of black marks.... etc.... people would attempt to abutse this.

 

 

 

"Scamming a player only gives me _ black marks, that means I can item scam _ more times before I am banned!"

 

 

 

"I have done _______ so I can do this an not get banned"

 

 

 

 

 

Etc.... basically moderators are not told as the infomation is sensitive, it could have a negative effect on the attitudes of the community if infomation was released. you must remember although as a whole the moderator team is trustworthy, when you speak of a group of 6000 + people it is best not to generalise.... there will be some bad eggs.

 

 

 

 

 

If you wish to raise your conserns I recomend seinging a message via:

 

 

 

Comment on our service > complaint

 

 

 

Obviousally you could not do this in 400 charicters, but you are allowed to join messages, just start you message "message 1 or 5" (for example)

 

 

 

This wiill allow Jagex to see there are more messages to read. if you get the sorry we cant read this message just try again.

[Alg]

moderators actually know a lot less about the banning system than we're given credit for, among other things...

 

of all confidential mod info, we're told almost nothing of the ban system.

 

 

 

at cchaosdemon: i take it you're new to the ranks of the moderators? it's generally considered impolite to say 'reported', especially as a mod.

[dlainedee]

moderators actually know a lot less about the banning system than we're given credit for, among other things...

 

of all confidential mod info, we're told almost nothing of the ban system.

 

 

 

I can understand that staff would not discuss each member that they ban with the mods, but that has nothing to do with the confidentiality of the members.

 

 

 

I think you mods need to discuss banning in the your staff/mod forum. Besides the game and the profit, it appears that banning is the number one thing the staff does. It is bad policy to ban because it is easier then dealing with the member on a personal level.

 

 

 

Banning members should not be taken so lightly. It should be the last thing staff does to a member, only when there is no other choice. There should be a lot of thought given to each ban, before a ban is issued. Basically, the member is a ban begging to happen.

 

 

 

Black marks is another policy that should be discussed. There should be a scale, and a time limit that black marks stays on a member's account. And this should be announced for all players to know and understand. It would be a great incentive for all members to know that, yes they messed up (if you will), but as time goes on with good behavior, these marks will be lowered to eventually disappear.

 

 

 

Otherwise, what is the point of the mods? It appears that they are only in place to tattletale on everything they see that might, and only in their opinion, might be bad. If their duties is to help the members, then they also need to help the members behind the scene.

 

 

 

Members reporting members... Unless it is absolutely obvious, many things are taken out of context, and a 60 second screen shot of what is said, is unfair to the members.

 

 

 

It truly breaks my heart every time I've spoken to a member that was unjustly banned. Staff would not listen to their explanation, and worse, replied with a canned response. Canned responses should NEVER be used when a corporation is taking disciplinary actions against their members. Their customers.

 

 

 

Some where along the line staff forgot compassion when dealing with the public. With this type of website, compassion must be first in the minds of those that control the switch to permanently ban a member.

[Bobbington]

I am going to drop the topic of canned responces here, some peopel have one opinion and otheres think differnt, there are valid point on both sides.... however it's really not that this thread is for......

 

 

 

 

 

In terms of what eles you are saying though, on the forums my job is not to ban users, it is to improve the forums.

 

 

 

We are not the forum moderators of Jagex, we are the communities moderators, we aim to make desissions to help improve the forums and the quality of posters on it. Banning is the last step, in some cases the last step is also the first step when they pose a real threat..... but we try out best to not ban players. We as mentioned in the knowledge base work on a 3 warnings poloicy (on most rules) we will warn a player what they are doing wrong, we will warn them again.... it it appears they have no intention of following the warnings we give them a short break the from the forums and recomend they read the rules in this time.

 

 

 

However I try my best not to issue a ban, occasionally issuing a ban has a negative effect, and so discrssion is needed. I will even leave a rule breaking thread open if it would harm the forums to lock it. It is not common, but can have a good effect.... again descression is important.

 

 

 

As far as I am aware Jagex are like this too, their fist aim is to improve the community, and in alot of cases they have to deal with the only way to improve is to ban.

[Alg]

another bit on canned responses, there are 36 people in snapshot review/ban appeal (you can check the staff list if you like) and 69 people with CS (might have miscounted). there are possibly thousands of appeals and reports sent daily, and as you can probably tell, limited manpower to read and answer them all.

 

 

 

if you can't see why 'canned answers' would be used, then you probably need to think harder.

[dlainedee]

another bit on canned responses, there are 36 people in snapshot review/ban appeal (you can check the staff list if you like) and 69 people with CS (might have miscounted). there are possibly thousands of appeals and reports sent daily, and as you can probably tell, limited manpower to read and answer them all.

 

 

 

if you can't see why 'canned answers' would be used, then you probably need to think harder.

 

 

 

I can't, for the life of me, understand why you don't understand that canned responses to disciplinary actions is wrong, and unprofessional. ;-) Especially to the appeals. And, an 'auto response' (where no human is involved) should never take place for disciplinary actions. If their accounting department thinks the corporation cannot afford to have a separate customer service department, that is trained in dealing with people and their problems, then they should err on the side of the member.

 

 

 

I'm just a customer service type of gal, what can I say... :-)

[dlainedee]

I am going to drop the topic of canned responces here, some peopel have one opinion and otheres think differnt, there are valid point on both sides.... however it's really not that this thread is for......

 

 

 

 

 

In terms of what eles you are saying though, on the forums my job is not to ban users, it is to improve the forums.

 

 

 

We are not the forum moderators of Jagex, we are the communities moderators, we aim to make desissions to help improve the forums and the quality of posters on it. Banning is the last step, in some cases the last step is also the first step when they pose a real threat..... but we try out best to not ban players. We as mentioned in the knowledge base work on a 3 warnings poloicy (on most rules) we will warn a player what they are doing wrong, we will warn them again.... it it appears they have no intention of following the warnings we give them a short break the from the forums and recomend they read the rules in this time.

 

 

 

However I try my best not to issue a ban, occasionally issuing a ban has a negative effect, and so discrssion is needed. I will even leave a rule breaking thread open if it would harm the forums to lock it. It is not common, but can have a good effect.... again descression is important.

 

 

 

As far as I am aware Jagex are like this too, their fist aim is to improve the community, and in alot of cases they have to deal with the only way to improve is to ban.

 

 

 

You are right. Forums are different then on the game. You have all the proof you need in the permanent-typed words of the post. ;-)

 

 

 

We aren't talking about the forums though. We are talking about things that happen during the game. When a 60 second screen shot, especially in a crowded area where text is scrolling quickly, is unfair. We are talking about real humans that will work with the member, instead of against the member, when an offense has happened. Especially a first offense.

 

 

 

We are talking about good member/customer service vs. bad.

[Bobbington]

another bit on canned responses, there are 36 people in snapshot review/ban appeal (you can check the staff list if you like) and 69 people with CS (might have miscounted). there are possibly thousands of appeals and reports sent daily, and as you can probably tell, limited manpower to read and answer them all.

 

 

 

if you can't see why 'canned answers' would be used, then you probably need to think harder.

 

 

 

First off 1000 per day is a bit low seeing as 8000 are banend for autoing on an adverage week :P

 

 

 

But also I am not sure what the snap shot team actually do, I have a feeling they sort the reports up forwarding them to the correct team, for example autoing and real world trading is the job of ICU. I would also asume most of the OST can deal with abuse reports..... the snap shot team are probaly just the key workers for it.

[Alg]

another bit on canned responses, there are 36 people in snapshot review/ban appeal (you can check the staff list if you like) and 69 people with CS (might have miscounted). there are possibly thousands of appeals and reports sent daily, and as you can probably tell, limited manpower to read and answer them all.

 

 

 

if you can't see why 'canned answers' would be used, then you probably need to think harder.

 

 

 

First off 1000 per day is a bit low seeing as 8000 are banend for autoing on an adverage week :P

 

 

 

But also I am not sure what the snap shot team actually do, I have a feeling they sort the reports up forwarding them to the correct team, for example autoing and real world trading is the job of ICU. I would also asume most of the OST can deal with abuse reports..... the snap shot team are probaly just the key workers for it.

 

i'll admit that 1000 is quite a bit too low, probably could have thought of something more reasonable. also, the snapshot review team is also the group that works with ban appeals.

 

the ICU is a major part of it all, but the point of my comment was that there are too many reports and few people to answer them, even without people who spam them.

[Bobbington]

I got your point yes, although i feel they ahve got the correct number of staff to do the job. Certainly if every person got a personal responce it would not be enough, but I dont feel personal responces are nessasary in most cases...

 

 

 

 

 

oh darn I have wonderd onto responce messages again

 

 

 

*slaps back of hand*

[crosshair2]

i have a very stupid ban ....

 

 

 

a guys were usurping a mod , ( he didnt had the crown befor ehis name ) he said , he were to give me full zammy if i asnwer some question .... , i did , then he say , i need your password to make appear the full zammy in your inventory , i were like " yeah nice try ...'' then i started to say injure in french lol , then , my account is ban for account sharing ?!?!?! , i look the evidence and i see the the conversation me and him , all we see is him tried to get my password !!!!!!!! i have apppeal 3 time and everytime , its a pre typed message they send me , they dont take time to read any comment appeal from f2p player i guess

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

im thinking there not that good in french and thaught you were giving out your password.....

[dlainedee]

 

im thinking there not that good in french and thaught you were giving out your password.....

 

 

 

Extremely bad customer service to ban a member/customer because a corporation is not good at something, or they 'think' a member/customer did something wrong. They need to know for a fact, without any doubts WHATSOEVER.

[dlainedee]

I got your point yes, although i feel they ahve got the correct number of staff to do the job. Certainly if every person got a personal responce it would not be enough, but I dont feel personal responces are nessasary in most cases...

 

 

 

You 'feel' they 'got' the correct number of staff... ? No response needed. I believe the reader can see that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

 

 

It really doesn't matter that you 'think' a personal response isn't necessary when dealing out bans and mutes. It is, however, absolutely necessary.

 

 

 

A corporation should never lease/contract a commodity, an account in this case, then take that commodity/account away without absolute proof of an infraction. And worse, turn around and invite the member to sign up and pay for a new account.

 

 

 

It really doesn't matter what you 'think', the bottom line to this is unprofessional, and just plain wrong.

 

 

 

Black marks that are not removed with good behavior as time moves on, is setting the member up for a fall. It causes members to feel uneasy about spending time building up their character, and having their private information on a site of this kind. This is unprofessional and just plain wrong.

 

 

 

The game is great, and can be a wonderful 'family' played game, and a lot of fun. I'm quite sure the staff is wonderful people. But customer service is lacking. Customer Service should be the number one priority of a good corporation.

 

 

 

oh darn I have wonderd onto responce messages again

 

 

 

*slaps back of hand*

 

 

 

If this is supposed to be funny, then I missed the joke? Can you fill us 'all' in, or is it an inside joke? ;-)

[Bobbington]

I got your point yes, although i feel they ahve got the correct number of staff to do the job. Certainly if every person got a personal responce it would not be enough, but I dont feel personal responces are nessasary in most cases...

 

 

 

You 'feel' they 'got' the correct number of staff... ? No response needed. I believe the reader can see that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

 

 

It really doesn't matter that you 'think' a personal response isn't necessary when dealing out bans and mutes. It is, however, absolutely necessary.

 

 

 

A corporation should never lease/contract a commodity, an account in this case, then take that commodity/account away without absolute proof of an infraction. And worse, turn around and invite the member to sign up and pay for a new account.

 

 

 

It really doesn't matter what you 'think', the bottom line to this is unprofessional, and just plain wrong.

 

 

 

Black marks that are not removed with good behavior as time moves on, is setting the member up for a fall. It causes members to feel uneasy about spending time building up their character, and having their private information on a site of this kind. This is unprofessional and just plain wrong.

 

 

 

The game is great, and can be a wonderful 'family' played game, and a lot of fun. I'm quite sure the staff is wonderful people. But customer service is lacking. Customer Service should be the number one priority of a good corporation.

 

 

 

oh darn I have wonderd onto responce messages again

 

 

 

*slaps back of hand*

 

 

 

If this is supposed to be funny, then I missed the joke? Can you fill us 'all' in, or is it an inside joke? ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

The whole world is build up on a selection of what powerfull people feel, their opinions make laws, declair wars, make and lose money..... Oneday adrew Gower had a feeling and made a game...... anothere day Constant Tedder though.... "hey! this could be a good business." When the the creator of this site truned it into a fan site, it was probaly not a business dessison, the first though was "I feel i would like to amke a fan site"

 

 

 

Even if a feeling is not the ultimate dessision maker without it no desssions are going to be made. What I feel as an inteligant and well balanced individual has everything to do with it.

 

 

 

When i say that I feel, this is not a guess, this is me looking at the evidance and making a judgment based on that. However I do it truthfully! You wrongly present everything you say as a fact, this is wrong.... leaving no room to manouver is what leads to more miskates.

 

 

 

You seem to belive that presonal opinion has no place in and part of a business..... well I dont know where you live (I guess America) but perhaps you should look at the power that drives your and any other country in the world.... a collection of people who think and have feelings.

 

 

 

Oh and that last comment was not a joke..... I am merely saying that this thread is not about a discussion on canned responces, it is about unfair bannings..... thus speaking you keep on drivinbg the topic onto canned responces which i am trying to pull away from.

[dlainedee]

 

The whole world is build up on a selection of what powerfull people feel, their opinions make laws, declair wars, make and lose money..... Oneday adrew Gower had a feeling and made a game...... anothere day Constant Tedder though.... "hey! this could be a good business." When the the creator of this site truned it into a fan site, it was probaly not a business dessison, the first though was "I feel i would like to amke a fan site"

 

 

 

Even if a feeling is not the ultimate dessision maker without it no desssions are going to be made. What I feel as an inteligant and well balanced individual has everything to do with it.

 

 

 

When i say that I feel, this is not a guess, this is me looking at the evidance and making a judgment based on that. However I do it truthfully! You wrongly present everything you say as a fact, this is wrong.... leaving no room to manouver is what leads to more miskates.

 

 

 

You seem to belive that presonal opinion has no place in and part of a business..... well I dont know where you live (I guess America) but perhaps you should look at the power that drives your and any other country in the world.... a collection of people who think and have feelings.

 

 

 

Oh and that last comment was not a joke..... I am merely saying that this thread is not about a discussion on canned responces, it is about unfair bannings..... thus speaking you keep on drivinbg the topic onto canned responces which i am trying to pull away from.

 

 

 

First off, I never said, personal opinions for the game, or any site, have no place. YOU said that. Please do not put words in my mouth, I asked you not to do that more then once. Thank you...

 

 

 

Second, personal opinions have nothing to do with customer service. Third, CANNED responses have everything to do with the topic of being unfairly banned or muted. EVERYTHING to do with it. Especially auto responses.

 

 

 

Like I said before, you are very young, and have no experience in the corporate world, regardless of the country. The almighty dollar is the bottom line of any corporation, company, kool-aid stand, but customer service can make or break a corporation -- in the long run... You keep taking this personally, and that is not what this is about.

 

 

 

This is about HUMAN BEINGS, that paid for a service, which was unfairly treated by the corporation that they trusted to be a fair corporation.

 

 

 

However, I really don't want to go back and forth with ya. ;-) It has come down to, -- I am a corporate lady, and I have been for many years. I am for the profit of the company, but I am for customer service also, side by side with the profit. I understand and respect your right to think customer service is not and should not be a priority of any company. That is your right to think that way. So...we really don't need to try to convince the other that our way to do things is the correct way. ;)

 

 

 

One thing though... 'proof-reading' your posts, before you click on the Submit button, can be a good thing... :-)

[Bobbington]

I also agree that customer service is key to the importance of a company, although what i am tryingt o say is in comparison to alot of companies Jagex is goinga great job, I have no problem with the methods of *most* of the staff.

 

 

 

And I do have alot of experiance int he business world witht he direction of my degree, I have helped many businesses small and medium in size with their marketing and brand direction, this also includes alot of customer service.

 

 

 

 

 

I know I have alot of mistakes, I am dyslexic, I could read over my posts 10 times and still miss half of the mistakes :P it makes sence to me :)

[mini193]

got banned on my main and pure for rl trading for getting free stuff from my rich friend. 25m bank worth, 92 combat, 1420+ total, 3 years of work, all banned with 4 automated responses.

[Bobbington]

May I ask if he was a real life friend?

 

 

 

AkA you where often logging on from the real computers? if so it's probaly one of the key features that looks incriminating. At a guess you friend actually was real world trading (?), and the way he gave you the items would have looked very shifty if not aware of the circumatances in great detail?

[benar]

Ive been permanently muted for 9 or 10 months. All black marks gained from rule 1... One of them were caused by a hacker, and another two of them were over NOTHING at all. Simply talking to my friends. :evil:

 

 

 

Customer support needs to be a little more skilled and understanding.

 

If a player is going to get a black mark, then they better have GOOD evidence with a real explaination.

 

 

 

For those of you who are muted, check out my guide on how to get through it! http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=673718

[dlainedee]

May I ask if he was a real life friend?

 

 

 

AkA you where often logging on from the real computers? if so it's probaly one of the key features that looks incriminating. At a guess you friend actually was real world trading (?), and the way he gave you the items would have looked very shifty if not aware of the circumatances in great detail?

 

 

 

Real life friends should NEVER have any bearing on bans and mutes. NEVER!

 

 

 

What the heck is "often logging on from the real computers" ??

 

 

 

What the heck does that mean? I have never heard of anyone logging on using a FAKE computer.

 

 

 

"Probably" ? "Looks incriminating" ? "Guess that a friend was doing wrong" ?

 

 

 

You have no right to guess. Condemning friends and family for what another does, is WRONG. Does Hitler, Stalin, how about Saddam Hussein... Ring a bell? Guilt by association? Is that what you truly believe?

 

 

 

It comes right back to, the corporation that you insist on standing up for rarely has sufficient proof when they permanently ban a member, especially for this real life stuff. If they...think, guess, assume, presume, when it concerns a customer, then this says, they rather dispose of paying members then deal with the truth. They give no benefit of the doubt to the customer.

 

 

 

So it comes back to...

 

 

 

Extremely bad customer service to ban a paying customer when there is no proof, beyond a doubt.

 

 

 

This real life trading. I know nothing about it, so I will give a customer service opinion...

 

 

 

There is no sure-fire way to prove, without any doubts, that real world trading takes place. They would have to bait the customer, *collect the money*, and do the trade, to prove without doubt. If they are doing this, they are not doing it to all members that they ban for this offense. They are guessing, assuming, presuming, which is unfair to all members. Especially members that like to give away things to family and friends.

 

 

 

However, this can't be correct..., right...? With your own words, out of your mouth, you said, staff doesn't have the manpower or time to respond to their paying customers on a personal level, so, if no time for the customer, then no time to dress up and bait members, to catch the bad members... Now is there? (Remember, you CAN'T have it both ways...)

 

 

 

You make it seem as though, and I am thinking maybe it is so, they are way too obsessed with catching bad members. Their obsession is so strong, that some where along the line, they forgot about all the good members that may have been innocent and that they have unjustly condemned because of the bad.

 

 

 

Btw... I know two brothers that played this game for years. The older brother was going off to college, so he decided he wouldn't have time to play. He gave all his things to his younger brother, worth game millions. The staff banned both brothers for real world trading...

 

 

 

Staff used canned responses, and said they had proof. There is no way they had proof, that was a lie. They used canned responses, and would not listen to their father that did the appeal. Little brother did not pay big brother for his RS things. That is a FACT. Big brother gave little brother his things.

 

 

 

If they lie once, they will lie over and over again.

 

 

 

Listen, you really don't know what you are saying... I know, I know...you said you have many years of working with a corporation (more then one), and have extreme experience in customer service...EVEN though you are only 19 years old. I commend thee...

[Bobbington]

Well my dad has been a business advidor since before I was born so this kinda stuff has ben drilled into me froma very young age. I have been activky been getting involved from a design and marketing view point since the age of 16.

 

 

 

 

 

Back to my post, I was not condoning the ban if it was incorrect obviousally it was the wrong thing to do....... I would be an idiot to generalise.

 

 

 

HOWEVER! what I was trying to get across was that if his friend was infact actually real world trading, and with a short preriod of time of buying RS gold, the money was transfered to the now banned users account, it would look like incriminating evidance.

 

 

 

I am not condoing any incorrect bannings, however what I was doing was probing for more infomation to get a fuller picture of where mistakes where made.

 

 

 

Also occasiaonally from a human prospective, it's nice to help the person try to understand on that evidance Jagex based their desission on. Even if ultimatly it was mis intruprated I know from experiance that people take comfort in being able to see it from the view point of Jagex.

 

 

 

It helps to stem negative feeling, and can and does relive alot of stress for players when I can do it correctly.

 

 

 

If I do find major flaws in the system of spotting real world trading I will have no hesitation than sending my findings to jagex, so again I wish to get a larger understanding of what happened.

 

 

 

If you think this is a bad way to act I would be most intrested to hear why, you seem to have taken the desission that I must be like Hitler because I think sombody in the situation broke a rule - and so the ban was not totaly unfounded? if so I suggest you read a bit more into history!

[dlainedee]

...

 

 

 

If you truly want to help, then help Black Knight77. He was permanently muted. He is level 124. There is no way he deserved to be permanently muted. Very few in their right mind would, purposely, do anything to get banned or muted at his level. It takes no less then 2 to 3 years to become a level 124. He cared or he would not have been a member for that long, and worked on his skills for that long.

 

 

 

He was given one appeal, and, the response was a canned response. Where is the justice in this?

 

 

 

The very least any corporation could do for a member that has been a paying member for a long time, should be to give them the benefit of the doubt. OR at least allowed to give an apology and then given only a warning.

 

 

 

This is extremely unfair and unjust. My heart is broken over this and I feel his pain. :(

 

 

 

Maybe, you can look into this...

[Alg]

...

 

 

 

If you truly want to help, then help Black Knight77. He was permanently muted. He is level 124. There is no way he deserved to be permanently muted. Very few in their right mind would, purposely, do anything to get banned or muted at his level. It takes no less then 2 to 3 years to become a level 124. He cared or he would not have been a member for that long, and worked on his skills for that long.

 

so just because he is a high level means that he shouldn't be muted? you're giving very little information on how or why, so is the mute fair or unjust?

 

from my experience, many 'unfair mutes', when explained, either show a misunderstood rule or give little or no explanation supporting that it was wrong.