Tip.It Times Presents: Jagex and Emergent Gameplay

[Wachtwoord]

Unfortunately it's hard for the editor not to be critical -- if editorial pieces are nothing but praise and compliments to Jagex, then the editor comes under fire for "sucking up to Jagex". So the editor's treading a fine line in order to present overall a balanced view of the game. Too much praise (s)he gets it in the neck from the Tip.It members. Too much criticism and (s)he gets Jagex grumbling... It's no surprise that (s)he keeps his/her identity a secret!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And when was the last time the article was very possitive about jagex. I think the last one was about the construction update. Now let's compare those to the article who critize either Jagex or the game. Hmm, I the balance is a bit lost here IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(If my english isn't very good, I'm sorry. I just suck at foreign languages.)

[starev91]

The idea behind the article was good, but the article itself was one sided, very pker based, and the editor's comments didn't have much effect on it's overall content; The reason Jagex wouldn't allow something like the summon off a cliff thing is because you'd lose stuff-in WoW it's just a laugh. And the arguement that balancing was killing emergent gameplay is wrong; It just makes it harder, like it should be: You have to be really creative to find some way to take advantage of of a balanced system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Andrew was right about it being one sided; It didn't incorporate rune running or other things players have come up with (granite mining for exp, probably drop mining in general, hybriding, etc.) as a counter example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To all those complaining about graphics bugs (egg rolling, imp, bunny, lean, drunk, etc.), they all could've been used to lure some of the more naive characters into the wilderness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've recently been playing an mmorpg in it's early stages (still in what the devs call pre-alpha, although I'd say it's about alpha level, just a bit buggy and not incredibly stable of yet), and I have to say that when you don't lose items for dying, what some call "emergent gameplay" (I call it "creative scamming" in Runescape, since it results in an unfair advantage for the other player and the loss of items for one) is much less harmful to other players. (Note that the game I've been playing will not be named)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that both the fact that in WoW items are not lost (I realize it was mentioned, but wasn't pointed out very much), so the summoner dropping them to their death isn't exactly the same as luring someone into the wildy, and counter examples as mentioned above would have made it a more objective article and less of just a "oh, Jagex hates pures by balancing the game" and a "I agree, Jagex wants to kill creativity, but look at WoW, they dont!". The very strong opinion going one way without obvious counterexamples going the other way or a disclaimer saying it's biased and that there's another side of the story makes me think that it might be misleading and spread unjustified anti-Jagex sentiment (not saying there isn't perfectly justified anti-Jagex sentiment, but this would be undeserved) among certain less objective readers, which would obviously cause problems.

[Tekilla]

well...yeah it jagex does kinda block originality in some ways...but how come locking low lvs up with the monks of zamorak in fally hasnt been considered a "bug"....anyways hiding behind tables at the bar at wildy edge in varrock is still not against the rules.So maybe you cant create new types of characters and skills....but u can create new fighting techniques which is still pretty cool.I also think rs should listen to players ideas mur often..have u seen the official forums?there full of wonder full ideas!!in fact the banking system tats going around here at tip.it is awesome!COME ON JAGEX LISTEN TO US!we play the game,we know wats needed!

[Ahmet29992]

Great article :wink:

[kdog2fast]

Good article indeed but the posts here are losing me. Why are you guys play Runecape if u got world of warcraft(WoW)? And yea the article makes loads of sence you just gotta know about rpgs and runescape to understand.

[piston_range]

This is one of my favorite tip.it articals ever. As for the guy that said this was just 10 comments put together, I have played rsc and he's right. Back in the day :D I used to have a lvl 50 pure (I know haha lvl 50's nothing) and I used to have so much fun owning in the wildy. The best part was how they thought they stood a chance, hehe. Jagex has to let the game evolve on its own. There are numerous ways to make tons of money in f2p simply buy buying from one npc and selling to another for almost double. I'm afraid to even mention this for all I know Jagex will pounce lol. Its like they have to have a strong grasp on all the players or everything will burst into chaos. Even if It did it would be an awesome online chaos... I'm just afraid of whats to come.

[melorna]

I got the feeling the writer of this article was/is a pker and is unhappy with any changes that affected his/her ability to kill other players. The fact that the combat triangle removed one combat types advantage over another, making the game more enjoyable for the other two combat types, doesn't seem to be taken into account. This adjustment to the game wasn't aimed at suppressing player creativity but was an attemp to allow more people to "enjoy" pking with different combat types.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are quite a few posts asking Jagex to "listen to the players." I believe what they are really saying is "listen to the players who play like me." I've been playing rs for about 1 1/2 years now and i've never pked anyone. This aspect of the game holds no interest for me at all. It also annoys me to no end that I can't go into the wild to do a clue scroll, kill green dragons, etc. without having someone kill me just because they like to pk. No one who has ever killed my character got anything great because I only go into the wild with the barest necessities and easily replaced armor/clothes. I have dozens of friends on my friends list who have never pked and don't intend to start. I wouldn't consider asking Jagex to do away with Pking just because I, and the players I talk to most often, don't like it. We accept it as part of the game, wish there was a way for us to enjoy the entire rs world ( :idea: see p.s. for a suggestion), and then go on about our business without whining or complaining to Jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So much of what is being referred to as 'emergent gameplay' is, in reality, nothing more than an honest to goodness fault in the game code. As a perfectionist myself, I wouldn't be concerned with whether or not this fault was fun, harmful, or what ever-I'd just want to fix my mistake. I think a lot of the so-called "innocent fun" bugs are fixed because they are what they are-bugs!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Knowledge Base on the rs site mentions over and over, and makes it very plain, that the goal of Jagex is to make sure no one has an "unfair advantage" over anyone else. From what I've seen here and on rs forums, the people who complain the most are those that feel their advantage has been taken away. It's a fact of life that some people just aren't as smart as others and, since Andrew and company can't raise anyones IQ, they have to take this fact into account and try to accomodate as many players as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:idea: P.S. What about a toggle for PK or non-PK upon entering the wild that can only be changed after exiting the wild? A "guthix balance symbol of neutrality" could float over the non-PKers heads to let everyone know they can't kill or be killed. PKers can kill each other to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our non-PKing business without worrying about getting killed. No one would have an advantage over anyone else and, those people who like to PK can still find plenty of victims in the "PKing community."

[JimmyMcNabb]

 

 

 

:idea: P.S. What about a toggle for PK or non-PK upon entering the wild that can only be changed after exiting the wild? A "guthix balance symbol of neutrality" could float over the non-PKers heads to let everyone know they can't kill or be killed. PKers can kill each other to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our non-PKing business without worrying about getting killed. No one would have an advantage over anyone else and, those people who like to PK can still find plenty of victims in the "PKing community."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a good idea... however people could take advantage of this by just watching a fight and as the fight comes to an end toggling the thingy to pk mode and then kill the victor... It's a good idea however it has too many flaws in a pking environment

[hrod_ruck]

 

 

 

 

:idea: P.S. What about a toggle for PK or non-PK upon entering the wild that can only be changed after exiting the wild? A "guthix balance symbol of neutrality" could float over the non-PKers heads to let everyone know they can't kill or be killed. PKers can kill each other to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our non-PKing business without worrying about getting killed. No one would have an advantage over anyone else and, those people who like to PK can still find plenty of victims in the "PKing community."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a good idea... however people could take advantage of this by just watching a fight and as the fight comes to an end toggling the thingy to pk mode and then kill the victor... It's a good idea however it has too many flaws in a pking environment

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are great things in the Wilderness exactly because of the risk of being killed... It's a balance... What would happen if all "atackable" wildernes was overflout with pures and pkers and this kind of thing?

[melorna]

Jimmy McNabb--

 

 

 

To quote myself:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....that can only be changed after exiting the wild?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you miss this part of my suggestion? :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My friends and I did think of the possibility of people toggling this on and off, thus the addition of requiring a person to exit the wilderness before being able to change their status from PKer to non-PKer. From what I've observed, most successful Pkers don't stick around in the same place very long after they've made a good kill. They're off to bank their loot or to hunt another vicitm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've tried to find my friends (green dots) when I knew they were doing Clean Up on Karamja and wondered around for a while looking for them. I can't imagine being able to find a particular PKer (just another white dot) in the wilderness after you've had to go all the way back to Edgeville or Ardougne or somewhere to change your status.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hrod_ruck--

 

 

 

Sorry, but their are better things outside of the wilderness-like all colored dragons but green, slayer monsters with great drops, etc.-so that part of your arguement doesn't hold up. As for this statement

 

 

 

What would happen if all "atackable" wildernes was overflout with pures and pkers and this kind of thing?

 

 

 

I can only guess, but......... they'd be killing each other?

[jimjimson]

kaira, please get an interveiw with andrew

[Jiahui12180]

another article another debate(this time with an official response by andrew)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lets start with comparing rs2 and WOW.

 

 

 

people really shouldn't do it. These 2 games are like apples and oranges, not only in the difference in graphics and in the style of gameplay. Even though they are both mmorpgs, rs2 was intended for kids and WOW was not. One of the benefits of rs2 is the choice to change btw mage range and melle, while WOW doesn't have this feature. As for the price, WOW doesn't have ads or a f2p but it does have tons more content. Other then the topics i just mentioned people really shouldn't be comparing these 2 games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is Jagex too strict?

 

 

 

In my biased opinion yes. Jagex in my opinion is a little too strict on certain things because they dont want a potentally harmless bug to turn hurmful. Some of the things they ban, they dont ban it because its nessarly a problem they ban it because of what COULD be done with it. (this is the part where every1 including yours truly starts to criticize Jagex)

 

 

 

This leads to removal of glitches or bugs that were harmless and some that were even quite fun. In my personal opinion Jagex should wait until something goes terrorably wrong before intervening at a unsuspected glitch. Sure this will cause more incidents like the fally masscure , but it will also inspire more Emergent Gameplay will will be better for the rest of us in the long run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We still should congratulate Jagex instead of pointing out all the things we dont like about rs2. They must be doing something right because if i remember right we're still playing runescape.

[jimjimson]

there is a thread in the official forums about releasing 28 monkeys and having them run around. I would think that was emergent gameplay. Then a jagex mod said it was bad for their game to have so many npc's in the same area at one time.

[J_Talbain]

Lol, I'm actually registering to post this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you ask me, I don't think rebalancing combat stiffles creativity. It actually encourages creation of new strategies which IMO, more diverse compared to the last game's mantra of "Be a pure or die". I remembered when I played RSC, I always equated Pure PKer's with so-called Genome Soldiers. Soldiers engineered to kill and nothing else. I've nothing against this, but it's just silly when EVERYONE who stood a chance in Wildy are these.. soulless clones? :?

 

 

 

Where's the emergence when it became stale?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another thing is when Jagex fixes seemingly harmless bugs, my take is that they rather be safe than sorry. :-k

[tomegun74]

Jiahui12180 i must agree, wow was intended for a higher age and intelligence level. For instance emergent game play does not exist in rs2 because of the sole fact that the paying customers, are in fact children. I myself playing both games favor wow because you do not lose items if you die. yes i understand that rs2 is trying to be different and [cabbage] but come on now how long are you going to give in to the demands of your customers and state this is the way it is going to be and live with it, much like real life

[shadowbot]

I feel this a little one-sided. To say we try to stop all emergent gameplay isn't true. We love emergent gameplay; there's emergent gameplay all over the place in RuneScape. In fact (unlikely many other developers) when we see players doing something cool we hadn't thought of, not only do we think "cool!", we also often go out of our way to make that cool thing work even better or build it in as an intended part of the game. How many developers do that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually find these "accidental features" one of the coolest things about developing a game like RuneScape, it's always great to see players making their own fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you also need to make the distinction between emergent gameplay that improves the game (cool - leave it in, even support it in some cases), and emergent gameplay that actually totally spoils/unbalances it (best to be fixed). I would have thought this distinction a key part of any article on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to disagree with what you are saying here Andrew. It seems that you guys at Jagex have given runescape a sense of fear and caution when it comes to some cases of emergent gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many examples of emergent gameplay in other games evolve from glitches or bugs, such as the cliff teleport in Wow or the bugs in Gunz allowing players to cancel out certain reload times on weapons by switching weapons quickly and shooting again. The developers of these games left these in because although they were bugs, the players embraced them followed by the developers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A key example of how this is the opposite in rs is the castle wars bug where players were turning into sheep and imps outside of the area. Since the rules of runescape say that any bugs or glitches must be reported and not abused, there is an overwhelming response to things like walking around outside of castle wars as an imp. Massive amounts of players would follow you around reporting you for bug abuse and telling you that you are going to get banned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This type of paranoia about banning is because of the Jagex policies, and yes this is the same type of behavior that stifles emergent gameplay. As developer of runescape I'm sure you see it differently but coming from a veteran rs player, myself and many other people included are actually wary of having fun with some unintended effects that we find in the game because people are so scared of falling under this umbrella term of "bug abuse"

[xb0vv]

Personally, i couldn't agree more with this guy.

 

 

 

Ive been here since the beginning of runescape, when you couldnt even see other peoples combat levels. To be honest, hes 110% right. Exploration and personal creativity was what made RSC so damn popular and addictive.

 

 

 

The more people played the game the more unique it became, and yet attracted more outsiders.

 

 

 

Things like pures, pure defence god mage stakers and pure mages made runescape one of the most user friendly and lenient games. But the way Jagex has reacted was simply poor and unproffesional.

 

 

 

RSC may have had bad graphics, but the creativity is gone, and now i find myself having less to do in RS2 then RSC, despite that fact that its now twice as big.

 

 

 

RS2 pking is now strictly limited to higher levels, the staking now is a even worse story; and the myterious feeling of not knowing what you could stumble upon is gone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In response to you Andrew, it would perhaps be better to let a few things go once in a while and see where Runescape takes itself. By all means intervene if the course turned out to be bad, but give new 'flowers a chance to grow' even if you feel thretened by them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

xb0vv

[The Dark Lord]

 

I feel this a little one-sided. To say we try to stop all emergent gameplay isn't true. We love emergent gameplay; there's emergent gameplay all over the place in RuneScape. In fact (unlikely many other developers) when we see players doing something cool we hadn't thought of, not only do we think "cool!", we also often go out of our way to make that cool thing work even better or build it in as an intended part of the game. How many developers do that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually find these "accidental features" one of the coolest things about developing a game like RuneScape, it's always great to see players making their own fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you also need to make the distinction between emergent gameplay that improves the game (cool - leave it in, even support it in some cases), and emergent gameplay that actually totally spoils/unbalances it (best to be fixed). I would have thought this distinction a key part of any article on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to disagree with what you are saying here Andrew. It seems that you guys at Jagex have given runescape a sense of fear and caution when it comes to some cases of emergent gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many examples of emergent gameplay in other games evolve from glitches or bugs, such as the cliff teleport in Wow or the bugs in Gunz allowing players to cancel out certain reload times on weapons by switching weapons quickly and shooting again. The developers of these games left these in because although they were bugs, the players embraced them followed by the developers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A key example of how this is the opposite in rs is the castle wars bug where players were turning into sheep and imps outside of the area. Since the rules of runescape say that any bugs or glitches must be reported and not abused, there is an overwhelming response to things like walking around outside of castle wars as an imp. Massive amounts of players would follow you around reporting you for bug abuse and telling you that you are going to get banned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This type of paranoia about banning is because of the Jagex policies, and yes this is the same type of behavior that stifles emergent gameplay. As developer of runescape I'm sure you see it differently but coming from a veteran rs player, myself and many other people included are actually wary of having fun with some unintended effects that we find in the game because people are so scared of falling under this umbrella term of "bug abuse"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes! My friend telegrouped me to Lunar Isle (though I wasn't supposed to be there) and now he's paranoid about someone else finding out and reporting him because they want to become a player mod so they can abuse power and have it easy while buying/selling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other people on Lunar Isle could care less if I qualify to be there or not. Actually they kind of enjoy it because not a lot of people are there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

True bug abuse would be the Falador Massacre where a group of people went around PKing from Falador to Edgeville.

[haisey]

I can only agree with this article to a certain extent. Jagex definitely nuked the wilderness when they introduced RS2. Then again, RS2 was a whole new game, albeit tightly based on RSC, but definitely not the same. It introduced many new gameplay strategies, those used in the wilderness weren't alone, not by a long shot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the end, Jagex is a company that serves over 1 million people with it's product. They have the task of trying to please everyone, all the time. They do allow certain emergent gameplay, as many people have already said on this thread. The way you train, the way you kill monsters, all of these things are a type of emergent gameplay. Imagine if Jagex had decided to just turn a blind eye the day that Durial123 found the Construction bug. Personally, I think they allow just the right amount of emergent gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've definitely seen better articles in the Tip.it Times. This one was badly written, not thought through, and seemingly pointless. Just my 2 cents.

[Monticelso]

Great article, enough controversy for Andrew himself to appear at the gates of tipit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope as more and more new players join RS2, the influx of fresh minds will help new techniques and tricks emerge, making the wilderness as competitive and un-friendly as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I especially agree with this sentiment the wilderness should be kept a place of fear and should stay that way. I may be new here but i'm certainly looking forward to reading lots more articles!

[jimjimson]

I wish I was around when rsc was still here

[ashftw]

no offense intended, but I have to pretty much disagree with this article. There is little to no evidence to suggest that Jagex as a company see's emergent game play as players breaking the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 3rd client issue was obviously something that came about due to obvious security risks caused by players creating programs that hijacked users accounts or stole personal details. From my experience some but not all Rs players are pretty stupid and gullible and will download anything and enter any kind of information that is asked for without think "hum do you think this might be a scam". Jagex simply tried to protect its players by removing a threat from the game and clearing up what was a very large grey area. I do admit that they went about this completely the wrong way, but soon realized their mistake and quickly made appropriate changes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back on topic I see that Jagex embraces emergent game play just as much as any other company would. Only having problems when being creative and imaginative goes that bit to far and over steps the boundaries into bug abuse or down right scamming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wow example is all well and good for wow but think of this from a RS point of view putting yourself in the shoes of the poor character on the receiving end of this "Clever manipulation of game mechanics" I don't think you would find it all funny and say to yourself "that was a great use of game mechanics to lure me out here and kill me to get all my items"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im sure that if Jagex really had a big problem with players using their imagination when playing the game they would make a serious overhaul to the games mechanics. While we did see this done as you rightly put at the end of RSC they have not really made any significants changes to combat system since showing that they do not have a big problem with the way users are player the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I think there is more evidence to suggest that Runescape does encourage this type of play. For instance just look at the requirements on some of the newer items.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Crozier for instance has no atk str or def level requirement only prayer. it offers +25 crush as well as +32 str mix this with other items like a Berserker ring giving a further + 4 crush + str and an amulet of fury another +10 crush + 8 str and a high prayer lvl and you get player who can keep combat lvl down to a bare minimum and still do large sums of damage relative to its level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now this might not be a good example but its just one of the endless combinations of items you can put together in the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I would say while RuneScape is not the most imaginative game in the world the opportunity's to be original are still there and I think that its the players who are lacking the imagination not the game.

[Kiara_Kat]

kaira, please get an interveiw with andrew

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are working on that.

[eon17]

it is pretty weird andrew replyed to this saince untill very recently rs like denyed and support to stes like this one and they said it was bad to go to them

[The Dark Lord]

it is pretty weird andrew replyed to this saince untill very recently rs like denyed and support to stes like this one and they said it was bad to go to them

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well the last time he posted on here was when he tried to sue somebody for libel.