Tip.It Times Presents: Jagex and Emergent Gameplay

[Darrel104]

I disagree with this article because runescape didn't get to be a great game by the developers just putting in random things no things about what they did. They would have to think everything through to make sure it would work well with that specific game play. Pures are a single exception.

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

Most thing like this in runescape are seen as bug abuse, which it would be becuase jagex sees this as an advantage to the players who know how to do these things, sometimes even giving plays a quick route to a lvl 99 skill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know such a method, and have been afraid to share it for this very reason.

[jimjimson]

 

kaira, please get an interveiw with andrew

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are working on that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thank you, could the editor please ask him about why they refuse to fix the cat having their left click on pick-up. It is very annoying in crowded areas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps: I hope the quote thing worked

[Rubberman]

I agree with Mr. Andrew, Jagex has tried to do many things for us. If you don't like the game don't play it

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

stop having arguments over this Jagex created the game they can do anything they please, if you want to settle something buy a gun meet in a dark alley and shoot each other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

[The Dark Lord]

I agree with Mr. Andrew, Jagex has tried to do many things for us. If you don't like the game don't play it

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

stop having arguments over this Jagex created the game they can do anything they please, if you want to settle something buy a gun meet in a dark alley and shoot each other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're just saying that if Jagex wishes to continue forward, they must let some glitches stay in the game as it is brought about by creativity; however, if it could be used to scam, etc, then yes, remove that glitch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously we have good intentions toward Jagex or we wouldn't even publish these articles about our opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex might not like the idea of their software not working out the way they originally intended, but they must just let it run on its own. How do you think Blizzard with World of Warcraft is so successful? People are quitting RuneScape just to play WoW.

[J35u5_M4]

=D> A really good article, thanks for it Tip.it ! =D>

[therealjdb]

Yes a great Article indeed, in fact PaulT is a great person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Examples of emergent gameplay: Law running on world 66. Players using shops as temporary banks when nature running (risk of losing your runes, vs slight speed boost! cool trade off!). The bizarrely high value of party hats. The huge player 'market place' which has emerged on worlds 1 and 2 in varrock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The high price was caused in RSC when the Auto Rune crew found a packet exploit and duped party hats and crackers and many more things thus crashing the economy. after the majority of the accounts were banned a select few bought up the remaining party hats that they could and jacked the prices sky high.

[Doughnut]

Holy [cabbage], I met someone in CSS with the name PaulT, do you think it could be the same person? :-k

[therealjdb]

Holy [cabbage], I met someone in CSS with the name PaulT, do you think it could be the same person? :-k

 

 

 

maybe, I'd post the site from the picture but.. :lol:

[therealjdb]

ehh heck with it, heres the site. http://64.72.114.48/smf/

[pault]

I feel this a little one-sided. To say we try to stop all emergent gameplay isn't true. We love emergent gameplay; there's emergent gameplay all over the place in RuneScape. In fact (unlikely many other developers) when we see players doing something cool we hadn't thought of, not only do we think "cool!", we also often go out of our way to make that cool thing work even better or build it in as an intended part of the game. How many developers do that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Examples of emergent gameplay: Law running on world 66. Players using shops as temporary banks when nature running (risk of losing your runes, vs slight speed boost! cool trade off!). The bizarrely high value of party hats. The huge player 'market place' which has emerged on worlds 1 and 2 in varrock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Examples of emergent gameplay, where we've even tried to support it further. Players having drop parties, something we never originally thought of, but we added the drop party room to support it further. Of course you can still have a drop party the old way too. Clan wars in the wilderness - never a designed part of the game but we added in (optional) multi-way combat wilderness areas, and (optional) clan capes to try and make them more fun and are currently working on further clan related stuff to support this emergent gameplay further.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are countless examples once you sit down and think about it. There are also lots (and lots) of small ones you wouldn't even realize are there because they emerged so quickly and so widespread they have just become part of the game and everyone (including many of our own staff) just assumes we intended it to work that way. I haven't been keeping a list of all the emergent things that have happened but if I had I'm pretty sure it would be truly enormous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually find these "accidental features" one of the coolest things about developing a game like RuneScape, it's always great to see players making their own fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also don't confuse balancing the game with trying to kill emergent gameplay. They aren't the same thing. All decent MMORPGS try to ensure their game is balanced and for example if one weapon/character-class turns out to be totally overpowered compared to all others they will rebalance it to stop the game being ruined. There's a subtle difference between "emergent gameplay" and "finding the fastest way of levelling at any one moment in time". If the fastest way of levelling changes nothing has been spoilt, you just have to find the new fastest way!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you also need to make the distinction between emergent gameplay that improves the game (cool - leave it in, even support it in some cases), and emergent gameplay that actually totally spoils/unbalances it (best to be fixed). I would have thought this distinction a key part of any article on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as for the "banning" accusation. I would like to point out that we didn't ban people who made pure characters in rs-classic (your own example of emergent gameplay!), we don't ban all the people law running on world 66. Neither of these is against the rules. Lets not start with the banning accusations all over again. Our policy is "if in doubt DONT ban".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a great topic for an article, but it's a shame you didn't also think about all the cool emergent things in the game, and try to consider both sides of the topic. More research next time please! ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are a plethora of player created dynamics within Runescape that are well supported or at least tolerated by Jagex and it's right to say that Jagex does much to accommodate its players and embrace their style of play. However, some emergent gameplay opportunities have been abandoned and others only exist for lack of Jagex fleshing out the world appropriately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The switch from crisp 2D sprites to blocky 3D models in Runescape 3D never bothered me as much as the imprecise implentation of the combat system, which feels alot like the girl next door wearing fishnets; unnatural and forced. The 'by the numbers' 'click and watch' combat system that worked so well in Runescape simply wasn't made for a real time 3D world, and though the dynamics have been severely altered, the gameplay experience and controls were not changed, resulting in a kind of Frankenstein monster. Help! I'm an awesome classic MUD stuck inside a harsh 3D world! Combined with the super-effectiveness of armour and the strategy-free multi-combat zones, the Runescape3D wilderness is tame and unable to support compelling new playerkilling strategies, not because the opportunity for innovation isn't there, but the reward for innovation is sapped by lack of solid design.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are many examples of player created gameplay emerging only because there is no real way to get things done otherwise. Gameplay that is not particularly creative, but simply aggravating. For example, training the ranged skill involves trapping enemies behind objects, where you slowly shoot them to death while they stand there emotionless (in Runescape 3D, the monsters flinch), and the marketplace in varrok is a nest for scammers and spammers, but there's nowhere else to go. However, like the rarity of party hats, it's doubtful whether the range training dynamic was overseen by Jagex. The lack of any monster AI to faciliate archery is only admissable if the game doesn't require us to care about NPCs. This worked great in Runescape Classic where all the quests were frivolous or at least didn't take themselves seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would be much more willing to believe that the RSC combat system was somehow "Fixed" and made more balanced, if it ever was. But the truth is that all classes had a chance to suceed in Runescape classic, mages, strength pures, well-rounded melee, rangers, all suceeeded at different levels, and the combat system was never significantly changed. And though pure melee characters were the best overall, the scimitar is the overall best weapon in Runescape 3D, and I hope that doesn't mean it's going to be crippled in the next version of Runescape?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There should be a strong distinction between emergent gameplay that helps the game become a more interesting and fun place to be, and emergent gameplay that leeches that fun away. Jagex is of course the ultimate arbiter of what hijinks us mortals are allowed once we pass through the sacred gates of Lloigh-enn, though we are allowed to yodel and bring our cell phones, as well as firearms if necessary. Everyone likes to have fun, but there is a fine line between baiting people to do the wrong thing and giving them a free world to explore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pure characters weren't banned in RSC, but now everyone (ok, almost everyone) is banned from Runescape Classic, as you call it. Why? Too many cheaters. Also, players like me missed the boat to pay 5$, and got no second chance. Yet why doesn't Jagex release the Runescape classic source? The players who want the sourcecode (and already have a slightly obfuscated version) are more than capable of setting up their own server with adequate cheating protection and running the game as it was intended, and they want to. The worst possible thing that could happen, random private servers with no relation to the original game spawning up, has already happened with minimal impact to Runescape3D. Wouldn't it be better to release the official source of Runescape Classic and let it flourish in its old age?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it too much to ask for release of the Runescape sourcecode to the community that has loved and supported it for so many years? It's an extremely old game, which could be revived by modifications and community support.

[Suiku]

How Andrew say he LIKES the emergent gameplay of the high value of party hats when he itself tries to avoid more emergent gameplay of holiday drops making them untradeable!

[Monticelso]

How Andrew say he LIKES the emergent gameplay of the high value of party hats when he itself tries to avoid more emergent gameplay of holiday drops making them untradeable!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't really count that as holiday drops were meant to be just a bit of fun when they were dropped. But when Santa's were brought out people figured out what was happening with the economy and started hoarding them. Hardly in the spirit of Christmas really...

[sakura12]

Do not think of it as Jagex squashing emergent gameplay but rather think of it as a challenge to players to constantly come up with new ways of playing RuneScape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hackers always have to find new ways to get around new software securites to modify programs. RuneScape players have to find new ways to get around Jagex game designs to find new ways to play.

[D. V. Devnull]

Primary Analysis:

 

 

 

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I have gone through this whole thread after reading the Tip.It Times article, and all I can see is the equivalent of bickering and fighting, give or take a mere few posters, including Tip.It's staff members and Jagex's one-and-only Mr. Andrew Gower... My hat is off to you who were willing to put good posts in the middle of the mess. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My thoughts:

 

 

 

==================

 

 

 

Personally, I feel that the game's combat system (at least 99% of it) is fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That idea mentioned back on Page 3 of this thread would be a good idea to add to the game, though. (The one about PK/Non-PK control, and the special sign over the head for Non-PK'ers. It would let both PK'ers and Non-PK'ers have their chances at what they wish to do, and no innocents would be "picked on" and/or "ridiculed". :) ...) But instead of just simply having to exit wildi to switch it, force a 30-minute time limit minimum between changes in addition. That will make PK'ers think twice about trying to mask themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Edit from Post's Author: I personally apologize to Tip.It's Admins that this had to get going in this thread, even though I DIDN'T start it. PM me if somehow a special thread for this Idea comes into existence, PLEASE?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the side:

 

 

 

==================

 

 

 

I ended up seeing a bug the other day I didn't like that another player was exploiting while I was fighting mossies and hopping from world to world. I will not post details here as I don't want other P2P's getting the idea to follow it. (Mr. Gower, please either message me here on Forum.Tip.It's PM System or on RuneScape's Message System, PLEASE??!? I will GLADLY give you the details! My RSN is right here, visible in plain view. :) ...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, enough of me talking, let's hear more thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Mr. D. V. Devnull (RSN: D_V_Devnull)

[Newptor]

Excellent article, exellent idea (submitted articles, that is) and an excelletn responce by Andrew. He makes some very good points about giving both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do think that some assumptions were made about jgex that aren't necessarily true. Granted that all was said politely, which is a good thing. :)

[Hobgoblin11]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Jagex positively hates emergent gameplay - If they did, there would be many features in the game which would have been removed. However, I think that they do sometimes stifle it slightly, but only occassionally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a TET member, we thrive on emergent gameplay, its pretty much what we do. If all emergent gameplay was removed from Runescape, we would be extremely limited in what we could do at events. As it is, there remains in Runescape a lot of things which Im pretty sure were never meant to happen, but things that we can exploit and make events out of (such as the example Andrew gave, of freak trains)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whats more, the example you gave in your article, of pushing somebody off a cliff and having their armour ruined, is a pretty malicious thing to do. Sure it may be funny as hell to you and it might not hurt hem, but compare it to real life where you shove someone over in mud, just for a laugh. Sure they may not be hurt, but you ruined their clothes, I doubt they would see the funny side of it.

[Duke_Freedom]

Examples of emergent gameplay: The bizarrely high value of party hats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Something which Jagex has never been fond off and resulted in the untradability of holiday items? There were other solutions then making them untradable to reduce the amounts of complains which seemed to be the most important reason for the final decision on that. Only limiting it so that everyone could only obtain one from the event, but still allowing tradability for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either way - the untradability of holiday items was anything but supportive to the emergent playing created around the rares. That said, it is good that Jagex never removed the existing rares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also don't fully comprehend why techniques like power fishing, power woodcutting and power mining were all removed at start of rs2 due to not being able to continue fishing, woodcutting, mining anymore when your inventory is full. It used to allow people to 'trade' the materials for faster experience and some players made eager use of that, whereas others were more than happy with being able to pick up the automatically dropped materials of such people. It was pretty harmless and a good example of emergent gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the rest... Emergent playing arises in all MMORPG's and I wouldn't say Jagex does more or less than other game companies to let emergent playing evolve. A lot of "emergent gameplay" also arises due to actual instabilities and inbalance in the game. Pures were a good example of the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And has the odd cabbage cult yet been mentioned? ;)

[pault]

I also don't fully comprehend why techniques like power fishing, power woodcutting and power mining were all removed at start of rs2 due to not being able to continue fishing, woodcutting, mining anymore when your inventory is full. It used to allow people to 'trade' the materials for faster experience and some players made eager use of that, whereas others were more than happy with being able to pick up the automatically dropped materials of such people. It was pretty harmless and a good example of emergent gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Several skills were upgraded so you only needed to click once to fill your inventory, so power training was made somewhat obselete. On the other hand, I haven't mined a single rock in Runescape since they removed Soft Rocks. I loved those rocks.

[Duke_Freedom]

Several skills were upgraded so you only needed to click once to fill your inventory, so power training was made somewhat obselete.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, but why did the one click full inventory have to make power training obsolete? Plenty of people liked power training and I said it was a pretty harmless type of emergent gameplay.

[pault]

I know, but why did the one click full inventory have to make power training obsolete? Plenty of people liked power training and I said it was a pretty harmless type of emergent gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The one click-system as well as the smith-x and cook-all options made getting some items alot easier, so for the sake of balance power training had to be removed (though actually it happened in the opposite order chronologically). And also, it's not really emergent gameplay to power-fish or power-mine, because it was an intended feature.

[Allthetime]

Awesome article, that makes 3 in a row !!!

 

 

 

And Andrew's reply... wow, amazing, it seems they really care.

 

 

 

Let's hear them about all the wonderful ideas to make it better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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MMORPGs are a very special class of game because, unlike single player or even multiplayer offline games, they encourage cooperation, interaction and imagination as well as competition. Every player plays the game in a slightly different way. Every player has different goals. Within the constraints of the game we all customise our gaming experience to suit ourselves. If the author of the game has too restrictive a vision of how the game plays out, then all that imagination and creative energy is lost. The beauty of MMORPGs is their open-endedness, the huge variety of gameplay they offer and the ability of each player to play the game as he or she prefers.

 

 

 

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Emergence is hope

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Emergence is a fascinating phenomenon because it explains complexity through intrinsic simplicity. It says (or we take it as saying) that left to ourselves, without extrinsic structuring or regulation or governance, we will be magnificent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is beyond the hope implicit in democracy that says a group will be able to live together if all are given equal power. We won't just live together, but something far beyond the capabilities of any of us will emerge: Simply by being together, cathedrals will emerge...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Folksonomy as Symbol

 

 

 

~David Weinberger

 

 

 

full article:

 

 

 

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/home/home?wid=10&func=viewSubmission&sid=2541

[Guest Toshiba23]

Probably one of the best articles I've read on tip.it times. Very well done and thought out.

[Humuhumunuku]

Another good article. I really think what we need now is for the weekly poll to be about how often you pk. Personally in about 5 years of playing runescape, I have never pked a single person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although the so called emergent game play can sometimes be used as a glitch to take unfair advantage of other players, it is compleatly up to the game company to decide how much is too much. I've seen alot of comparison to wow, which I have never played. Although it is a compleatly different genre I belive a reference to Halo 2, another hugely popular game, is warented here. There is plenty of emrgent game play here, and bungie has closely examined each instance and taken a stance on it. Things such as the infamus "noob combo" and the BXR combo are supported and even used by the game developers. Some, such as "super jumping," are discouraged, but since strictly speaking they are minor glitches useably by everyone, it is not deemed illegal. Finally we have modding and standbying. These are blatent disregard for the game and ruin game play for everyone, thus their use is grounds for instant banning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The main differnce between these two games is the target age. Regardless of how many older people play it, rs is targeted at, and primarily played by children. Halo on the other hand is supposed to be played only by people over 17. This alows bungie to be much more liberal on their rules, where as jagex must keep their game fair for the younger players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is my personal oppinion that we should all give jagex a pat on the back for keeping such carfull track of a game played by millions.

[1withdragons]

In fact that reminds me of the glitch in the Warrior's Guild that made you look drunk. Jagex fixed it in a few days and then banned some people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on. What harm is it going to do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the bug where you could be an imp outside of Castle Wars. Jagex banned a lot of people for that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When Jagex "fixes" they really make the game worse. Sooner or later they're going to realise (when it's too late) that they should've let us keep those bugs because they were fun and allowed us to be creative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like how Blizzard looks at it. They actually enjoy the creativity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This also brings up Durial321 and the Falador Massacre (so it was called). Instead of banning him, they could've fixed it and then just act like it never happened and ignore all the complaints. Seriously, some people completely disregarded the player moderators' shouts of "Bank your items!" and walked around in expensive items and when they got killed they got real angry and maybe a few even quit.

There is a fine line between bug abuse and emergent gameplay. While I agree with the editor in that Jagex draws the line a little too harshly, Durial's massacre was clearly bug abuse. You suggest letting us keep certain examples of emergent gameplay. This might be nice, but Jagex never intended falador square to be as dangerous as level 56 wilderness. My idea is, if it harms other players and is blatant scamming, it needs fixing. If it's something harmless, like walking around like your drunk, that's fine.