The complete "Should F2P get updates?" Debate! 5,000 views!

[Shazarabbit]

A business cannot run on little money. People tend to forget just how much it costs for servers, maintenance bandwidth etc as well as the salaries of the Jagex employees.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Free to play is a demo, demo's don't get updated full stop. In the past year Free to play had substantial updates. They get holidays items and even access the treasure items that you can get in free to play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If jagex simply gave free to play what they wanted they would lose money. A business cannot function if they are losing money. Be happy with what you got, i dare you to go out and find one online demo game that is free, has no expiry and has as much as runescape?

[Nadril]

But like Nadril pointed out (and I had to edit to mention in a following post). There are 9 million free accounts, but this only means that 9 million were created, not that they are played (thus not seeing or clicking on links).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

exactly. If I had to *guess* I'd say there were around 1.5 million active players (not accounts) on the free to play worlds. It's just a guess though.

[Buckeyemange]

So by that logic you say that more than 7.5 million accounts are not being used?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, we need to find a good ballpark number here. I need someone to tell me how many members accounts there are (roughly) and how many non-member's players there are, and if I should use that number other than the number of accounts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the formula is 5M>XY, then is X accounts or players? So is it...

 

 

 

5(900,000) for members profit, greater than players times the true varible Y?

[Nadril]

So by that logic you say that more than 7.5 million accounts are not being used?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think about this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How long has runescape been around? Now, knowing they do not delete accounts over time think about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many people have quit the game every day? Quite a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many players have alternate accounts? I know I used to. 13 of those accounts in the 9 million are all mine, and none of them have an active player behind them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many botters are there? A ton. They take up account space too y'know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Over the years the game has gone on it obviously has picked up a ton of players. To say that the game has 9 million active players is incredibly false. I would be willing to bet that a few million of those are simply botters (I know they keep banned characters stored on the server, can't make that name again even if the player is banned). Even more of those characters are simply alts of players and a good bit more are from inactive players who used to play the game, even years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said, its a guess. It might be closer to 2 or 2.5 million "active" players playing, I don't know. But I can safely say it is no where near 9 million.

[Buckeyemange]

So you say....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Member's benifits=about 4,500,000?

 

 

 

Non-member's benifits=About 2,500,000Y?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So 4,500,000>2,500,000Y

 

 

 

And 1.8=Y

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So a month of ads would need to be at least $1.8 dollars to match the member's profits?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, 3 non-member's players are equal to $5.4 a month, compared to one member being 5. What's the lowest common denomonator of those numbers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Got it, 135. So it takes 75 Non-members to cover a price that 27 members cover.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ha! Take that stupid numbers!

[Buckeyemange]

Ok, I added my math to the first page, thoughts?

[Jake_Corsair]

You're gonna hate me Buckeye *g*. Your figures look a little better, but I'm thinking the number is less. Some more facts to twist around in your head #-o

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

70 f2p worlds with a max of 2000 people at 30 days is 4.2 million spots available. With 2.5 millon active accounts would be about 40 hours per month each account would be on (average about 1.3 hours a day per account).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the worlds average only about half the max pop. on them at any given time. Which comes to 2.1 million spots used each month. 2.5 million accounts would average less than an hour a day in game then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we can all agree the average player plays more than an average of an hour a day. Taking that into account, along with the fact that the worlds are hardly ever full at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I think the number of active f2p accounts might be closet to 1 million (maybe a little higher depending on what the avg. number of hours a person plays a day). At 1 million players (active) using the formula in my third paragraph would average players at just over 2 hours a day (which sounds a bit closer to me).

[Buckeyemange]

I'll look at it more later, I can't focus this late at night...

[Bufoman]

yeah if jagex is getting around a million per month off of free to play is it too much to ask that they spend around 100k a year for some updates like more bank space and value us as a sorce of revenue and not free loaders that have to be weend to members?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

im just going to guess that the adds are probaly based apon each time they appear not when they are clicked. by that resoning and say 2 adds are worth one cent (there probaly worth alot more companys spend a fourtune on advertiseing) most people play long enough each day to get at least ten adds in game. if this is true and there are 2 milliion active players per day... probaly a lot less but lets just assume there are then they are most likely getting $200 thausand or more per month from free to play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I stated earlyer by increasing the quality of free to play they do sevrall things one keep more players, two better the community and the in game economy, and 3 attract more players. In the long run I strongly feel that increasing the quality of Free to play will result in greater profits for jagex than treating it like a Demo. it will also benifit members in the long run becouse in order to preserve the balance they will have to work much harder for you as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

even if jagex did not make a single penny's profit from free to play should they decide to update it the increase in quality would result in more members as a end result. also notice how by my calculations free to play probaly generates around 200k per month? im sure its alot more than this as alot of people think its in the millions. of course we should ask jagex and get one of those lovely replys from mod bartlet.

[Jake_Corsair]

yeah if jagex is getting around a million per month off of free to play is it too much to ask that they spend around 100k a year for some updates like more bank space and value us as a sorce of revenue and not free loaders that have to be weend to members?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

im just going to guess that the adds are probaly based apon each time they appear not when they are clicked. by that resoning and say 2 adds are worth one cent (there probaly worth alot more companys spend a fourtune on advertiseing) most people play long enough each day to get at least ten adds in game. if this is true and there are 2 milliion active players per day... probaly a lot less but lets just assume there are then they are most likely getting $200 thausand or more per month from free to play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I stated earlyer by increasing the quality of free to play they do sevrall things one keep more players, two better the community and the in game economy, and 3 attract more players. In the long run I strongly feel that increasing the quality of Free to play will result in greater profits for jagex than treating it like a Demo. it will also benifit members in the long run becouse in order to preserve the balance they will have to work much harder for you as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

even if jagex did not make a single penny's profit from free to play should they decide to update it the increase in quality would result in more members as a end result. also notice how by my calculations free to play probaly generates around 200k per month? im sure its alot more than this as alot of people think its in the millions. of course we should ask jagex and get one of those lovely replys from mod bartlet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

True, but taking into account that there are around 900,000 members accounts at 5 dollars per. That's 4.5 million a month. And that's "guranteed" income. While a f2p player may have something come up and can't play for some time, thus not generating any income, the member that can't play for some reason has still given their money for that month.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, their intent isn't to keep f2p players, but to get them to join members. Being a free game to start with, there is never going to be a shortage of free players. And as such the economy and community won't suffer either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I've said in another post in this thread, I have no problems with f2p getting updates. But the attitude that f2p "should/deserves/is owed" updates, is what irks me. For players that choose (meaning they can get members but don't) not to get members, demanding updates, sounds a bit "greedy" (since we were throwing that word around earlier). And for those that can't (but would if they could) get members, it's an unfortunate aspect of business in that you only get what a company deems appropriate. Just because I use a company's product (and it works the way they say it will), doesn't entitle me to anything more. When HDTV becomes the standard in a few years, I'm certain that Best Buy (electronics store) won't just give me a new tv to upgrade me. But they will be more than happy to sell me one.

[FunnyGiant]

very interesting to read this, been a while since i have seen a serious debate on this matter. glad to see no bashing in here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

one thing i would like to point out on my behalf - the idea that f2p updates will take time and thus delay p2p updates is inaccurate to say the least. they are not making separate updates for p2p and f2p, they make 1 big update and then limit its range, so to speak.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

do we, the poor f2p-s, deserve updates is totally another matter. in this case

 

 

 

i can easily see the company's point of view - only minimal. and u know what? i am happy with it. only things i miss are the skill capes...

[JIMMIE]

Giant, the whole point of being P2P, is that you are better than a F2P. If they made the same update, and just limited it a bit, it would take away the glamour of being a member.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This would also lead to the limiting of new quests and things in the F2P area. They can't make a F2P and P2P update in Ardougne for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Jimmie

[Jake_Corsair]

Giant, the whole point of being P2P, is that you are better than a F2P. If they made the same update, and just limited it a bit, it would take away the glamour of being a member.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This would also lead to the limiting of new quests and things in the F2P area. They can't make a F2P and P2P update in Ardougne for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Jimmie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What he means is that most updates are just scripted to be limited to members servers (i.e. "Members Item" on f2p servers). But anything that has been updated in f2p in the past has also been included for p2p.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So the argument that it would take time away from p2p updates isn't really valid. But on the same note it's not really a valid argument to create a team to work on f2p updates, as they would be p2p updates anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the "p2p makes you better than f2p" comment, gonna have to say that I don't agree with that, and that it's kind of snobbish and egotistical to think that.

[JIMMIE]

I didn't mean to bring an element of snobbery to my post, im sorry if i caused offence. I attempted to say thats in Jagex's eyes, P2P are more important to them, so they are more concerned about giving their paying customers what they want.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Jimmie

[Bufoman]

well your stateing that free to play accounts should be removed every 3 months was not exactly humble. as Iv stated all this time free to play play's an importent role not only in the economy in game but also as a sorce of new members. take away us the life long free to players and the quality will go down in free to play, the members market will be negitively effected, and new players will be hopelessly lost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion updateing Free to play makes very sound buisness sense becouse it makes it more apealing to new members and keeps the old ones playing. old f2p players are very inmportent to both the economy and the community as well. true members are more importent to jagex but that does not meen they shouldent take an opertunity to improve the game quality as a whole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

now I know this is going around in circles but what can you do? the folks at jagex may have this same debate all year round which is why they havent done what I propose :roll:

[DaN]

Anyone who thinks that ads pay for their F2P useage are idiots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Servers cost REAL money more than ads can pay for!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some people have difficulty funding websites of ad revenue let alone an online game I imagine the backend of runescape would be huge.

[Jake_Corsair]

Anyone who thinks that ads pay for their F2P useage are idiots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Servers cost REAL money more than ads can pay for!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some people have difficulty funding websites of ad revenue let alone an online game I imagine the backend of runescape would be huge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And some websites function totally on ads alone. YouTube (which has been mentioned in previous threads similar to this), works solely on ads and was bought by Yahoo for an extremely large amount of money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While ads may not cover the majority of expenses, it obviously covers a great deal or else they wouldn't continue to offer it.

[ThurinEthir]

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

IF YOUR NOT PAYING TO PLAY, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x :notalk:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, way to look like a jerk! Look people, if you post here, use SOME of the brain that you should have!

 

 

 

I don't think he has a brain...He stormed it...? (I have no idea what I just meant)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, I think F2P should get updates. Maybe they don't deserve them, but they should get them. Not good, huge updates, but ones that should make them happy, and won't be too much to members.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you use too much math. It confuses me.

[Buckeyemange]

 

 

 

And you use too much math. It confuses me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It confused me to.

[Ltje]

I DO think that F2P deserves an update. Not an update like you all think, such things as members get, like new quests, and new area's and such.

 

 

 

But there are quite a few things that need to be updated to work properly. I won't name them all, but for example the wilderness needs to be revised, also in F2P (see another thread about it here), maples need to be either F2P, or taken whole out of F2P, except for the bows, and all such sorta things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But for the rest I don't think F2P needs some new quests, or something like that. I'm oke with it as it is now.

[microtosh]

If jagex wants to earn much more, they could sell pin cards world-wide. Buy one card, scratch it, enter the pin no. into runescape and you get one month. Great idea for those whose parents dun allow them to get membership but still want to sneakily get one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

some games do that and yea, they earn pretty much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^^ idea to consider.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

back on topic:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes, we should get updates. not so often. like they said, 2 updates per year is fine enough for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. more bank space?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. more money-making methods

 

 

 

- while p2p can strike it rich easily through nature runecrafting, fletching, barrowing, kq and merchanting members items, f2p can only merchant non member items, get rune drops ( med helm is like 10k only ) and so on )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but still. im extremely happy that jagex hadn't remove rares from the f2p market, or make it a members item only. i would lose alot. haha. but perhaps, if they did make it members only, the prices will rise steeply and all i need to do is to become members for one mth and weee, cashie cashie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

while i got to lvl 63 in three days and completed dragon slayer in a week, i really feel that there shouldn't be any more quests. it's pretty much useless and meaningless to introduce new quests to the already dead f2p. give us something more useful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

like for example ... graphics! that would seriously attract more f2pers and p2pers to generate revenue. more monsters could be good too. haha.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i feel that we f2pers do not need to be ashamed of being called "people who play the demo version" while we look up at those who "play the game". or if you want to look at it another way - f2p ( play the game ), p2p ( play the expansion ).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

f2pers kinda have alot of respect from p2pers. we have to deal with the macroers, fight for resources, put in double the time to earn combat exp, put in triple the time to max out skills and in prayer, pay 4 times the money to get 13 mill exp. also, earning money in f2p is so hard that if you are even slightly rich, you are to be respected. so that is the best thing we f2pers can ever have and enjoy that.

[One Too Far]

i think they should get 1 evry 2 months (im meber for a year now and got a year membership left so its not i just want updates for myself) and with those updates they also make a part members only so its also a bit member only like with stronghold of securety there could be a 5th member only part

[Tetsuya]

I think f2p should get updates. f2p is an important part of RS.

[Viv]

i don't think they should limit the time that someone can be f2p because a couple friends played 2years before getting parents to let them member.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i was thinking bout what made me be a member and it was beating a member friend in total. and when hunter came i renewed then renewed then renewed...now i can't imagine f2p. most members think that as well can't imagine going back to f2p after being members more then half of thier rs time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

back on topic: i don't think that f2p should get updates like quest and definatly not skills. one of the reasons for the low level skills updates like makarel and stuff is so that f2p can see 'members can now cook xxxx" while they are leveling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jagex doesn't want people to stay members at level 95 they want them to be members at 50-60ish. most of the good players get it at 75-85 cause they have the hang of the game. If they gave f2p a new skill ever..then thier totals would shoot up and it would not get anyone to pay. if they gave f2p a new area then it would lower the expansion. Though i would think of 2 things that would help balance the game out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

last line of bank space so f2p don't think "this is crud i gotta drop all this"

 

 

 

and team capes cause lots of wild stuff is done in f2p and lots of members pk in f2p.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

also look on the highscores you will see not many accounts are active and members don't dis f2p because a lot of the life long f2p don't think so highly of themselves and most of them are nice players.

[warren211]

F2P didnt pay for the adds. They didnt pay a darned thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a beautiful example:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets say you own a building. A local diner pays you 20 dollars to put a small flyer on your bulletin board advertising their diner. The diner offers free milkshakes. So one of your employees goes to their diner and demand a free steak dinner because the paying customers got one, and because they advertised in the buildin he works for. Does that make sense?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you cannot understand my example (though I don't see why you wouldn't) then heres the conclusion:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

F2P does NOT deserve anything. Sure, they have the ads in their worlds. So what? They're not paying for the ads right? We pay for our membership. We deserve updates, the don't