The bible

[Saru Inc]

Reb, do you ever post anything meaningful?

 

I think he meant that those topics are only discussed along religion, while real scientists might be more busy with other problems.

 

 

 

Anyway, it seems to me that you might be lost with religion. At the end, it wouldn't matter if you believe in Evolution or Gravity, but how you acted throughout your life, right? Religion is more about morals and ethic than prophets stopping the sun or splitting the seas. Jesus himself used plenty of parables as lessons to his followers, so why not assume the Bible is but a large parable trying to give you a moral, and not a historical lesson? Accepting Evolution won't undermine Christianity as much as you fear.

 

 

 

 

 

I just get angry, when Reb posts his sardonic posts with one liners like "well you're a moron if you think the Earth was created in less than 20k years."

 

 

 

Yea well, post something at least.

 

 

 

And no Meol, I guess when it really all boils down to it, it doesn't matter if you believer in Evolution, but if you have Jesus in your heart. But that begs the question, how can you completely ignore Genesis?

[Rebdragon]

I just get angry, when Reb posts his sardonic posts with one liners like "well you're a moron if you think the Earth was created in less than 20k years."

 

 

 

Yea well, post something at least.

 

When people have explained why believing what you do is retarded in every way imaginable, over and over again for dozens of pages, being redundant becomes less fun. You stopped listening to reason long ago mate, so I thought I'd try a different approach. A more fun one.

 

 

 

And no Meol, I guess when it really all boils down to it, it doesn't matter if you believer in Evolution, but if you have Jesus in your heart. But that begs the question, how can you completely ignore Genesis?

 

Here's a simple checklist for you to follow. Bear with me, I made it short just for you.

 

 

 

1) Type in "dictionary.com"

 

2) Hit enter

 

3) Search the term "allegory" by typing it in the box next to the word "search"

 

4) Hit enter

 

5) Read page

 

6) Post

[Shinjula]

Rebdragon - it doesnt matter if youve told him once or a million times, that sort of argressive insulting debating tactic is an appalling lack of respect.

 

 

 

Calling someone an idiot just because they dont agree with you just shows you yourself to be an idiot.

 

 

 

If you cant convince someone with logical argument, theres no point in getting angry with him.

 

Apart from anything else a true scientific mind will always admit there are limits to an individuals knowledge and we can *ALL* be wrong. For all you know you may still be wrong and him right - sure I can't see any possible way in which he is correct, but that dont mean he aint.

 

 

 

Its absolutely perfectly within the bounds of probability that both he and you are both wrong, all it would require is a malevolent deity running the universe.

 

 

 

Watchword : RESPECT

[Lenticular_J]

Zeitgeist is interesting. At least, the beginning. I knew that a lot of the symbolism surrounding Jesus was just reused material create by the Catholic Church, but I didn't know so much had been used in other religions. - and that it all lead back to astronomy.

 

 

 

I still believe Jesus existed and may have been one of the best men on this green and blue and white and brown earth.

[Saru Inc]

I just get angry, when Reb posts his sardonic posts with one liners like "well you're a moron if you think the Earth was created in less than 20k years."

 

 

 

Yea well, post something at least.

 

When people have explained why believing what you do is retarded in every way imaginable, over and over again for dozens of pages, being redundant becomes less fun. You stopped listening to reason long ago mate, so I thought I'd try a different approach. A more fun one.

 

 

 

And no Meol, I guess when it really all boils down to it, it doesn't matter if you believer in Evolution, but if you have Jesus in your heart. But that begs the question, how can you completely ignore Genesis?

 

Here's a simple checklist for you to follow. Bear with me, I made it short just for you.1) Type in "dictionary.com"

 

2) Hit enter

 

3) Search the term "allegory" by typing it in the box next to the word "search"

 

4) Hit enter

 

5) Read page

 

6) Post

 

 

 

First off, nice censor evasion.

 

Second, the whole point of debates usally, (note, not always) is to discover new ways of thinking, while yes, the utlimate goal is too defeat someone's points, it's also a learning experience. Now, I won't patronize you like you so eloquently did to me, but I'm quite aware of what an allegory is. And you know what? Evolution may in fact be correct, but until I see evidence that changes my mind; I will believe differently. And you know what, why get angry? I get angry over your attitude, not your beliefs. In fact, I'm all for Atheists, and Muslims, and Buddhists, and Taoists, I wouldn't practice their religions, but God gave them freedome of choice. YOU however, can't seem to stand Christians. And you call me the intolerant one? Funny. And if all else fails, then sit back and laugh at me, I don't care. Just don't treat me like a five year old, like you do with everyone and anyone who disagrees with you.

 

 

 

Also, to Shinjula? I think it was who asked what Christianity has inspired me to do - Well, I thought of one thing: It has inspired me to learn, and want to move forward in life, I want to become a Theologian or Historian, because the Bible, while boring when read (sorry, I really think it it) has awesome material, and a mystery I want to uncover.

[Rebdragon]

Saruman, it's not Christians that I hate- my family is Christian, and I am something of one too (in that it would not come as a major surprise to me to find that something like god exists). What I don't like is ignorant people, like you, spreading your ignorance and making the world worse for it. I couldn't give half a damn for you to be stupid in your own little corner of the room, so long as you don't spread the disease to others.

 

 

 

[side note: When in Buddha's name did I call you intolerant?]

 

 

 

Rebdragon - it doesnt matter if youve told him once or a million times, that sort of argressive insulting debating tactic is an appalling lack of respect.

 

 

 

Calling someone an idiot just because they dont agree with you just shows you yourself to be an idiot.

 

 

 

If you cant convince someone with logical argument, theres no point in getting angry with him.

 

Apart from anything else a true scientific mind will always admit there are limits to an individuals knowledge and we can *ALL* be wrong. For all you know you may still be wrong and him right - sure I can't see any possible way in which he is correct, but that dont mean he aint.

 

 

 

Its absolutely perfectly within the bounds of probability that both he and you are both wrong, all it would require is a malevolent deity running the universe.

 

 

 

Watchword : RESPECT

 

Calling someone an idiot because they don't believe in gravity makes me an idiot?

 

 

 

No, it just makes me an [wagon] mate. And not an angry [wagon], simply an amused one.

 

 

 

And for the last [bleep]ing time, no it is not within the realm of reasonable probability that his lack of understanding about Evolution can lead to him being correct.

[Quoi_Tu]

I'm sure I've said it many times on this thread, but I'm slightly bored, so: Allegory.

[Shinjula]

No, it just makes me an [wagon] mate.

 

OK Sure your an [wagon] not an idiot, now quit it please, some of us would like an actual debate and you are not contributing at all.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, to Shinjula? I think it was who asked what Christianity has inspired me to do - Well, I thought of one thing: It has inspired me to learn, and want to move forward in life, I want to become a Theologian or Historian, because the Bible, while boring when read (sorry, I really think it it) has awesome material, and a mystery I want to uncover.

 

 

 

Yey, inspiration keep it up. I had a thought last night related to this, a lot of these debates do consist of the atheist side of the debate criticising the Christian side of the debate saying how impossible the belief set, I wondered whether it might be a worthwhile thing to turn the debate the other way round and debate the things Christianity brings you that are (at least from your perspective) missing from atheism. That way the Atheists (I'm not really an Atheist, but I've generally taken the opposite side in the debate to you) such as my self can be on the defensive side of the debate.

 

 

 

Its not that I do believe that things are missing which Christianity could provide, but I think its definately a worthwhile thing to check - who know what we may have missed?

[Rebdragon]

No, it just makes me an [wagon] mate.

 

OK Sure your an [wagon] not an idiot, now quit it please, some of us would like an actual debate and you are not contributing at all.

 

A debate about evolution is never an actual debate.

[Shinjula]

A debate about evolution is never an actual debate.

 

Which is why I'd like to debate other things. Look I'm really not intersted in arguing with you over the nature of arguments, thats a whole other meta conversation which no one here is particularly interested in. Stick to the topic, learn, open your mind and stop trolling. I will not respond to you further, its just wasting forum space.

 

 

 

To anyone else, Id recommend completely ignoring any further comment Reb makes - he's bound to make several more attempts to derail the debate, if we ignore him for a few pages he'll either go away or he wont, if we're ignoring him either way it doesn't have to make any difference to us. Social exclusion is by far the easiest way of dealing with people like him - its a bit of a shame but I'd suggest he leaves us little option if we do actually want a debate and exchange of ideas.

[NoMoreDead]

Which is why I'd like to debate other things. Look I'm really not intersted in arguing with you over the nature of arguments, thats a whole other meta conversation which no one here is particularly interested in. Stick to the topic, learn, open your mind and stop trolling. I will not respond to you further, its just wasting forum space.

 

 

 

To anyone else, Id recommend completely ignoring any further comment Reb makes - he's bound to make several more attempts to derail the debate, if we ignore him for a few pages he'll either go away or he wont, if we're ignoring him either way it doesn't have to make any difference to us. Social exclusion is by far the easiest way of dealing with people like him - its a bit of a shame but I'd suggest he leaves us little option if we do actually want a debate and exchange of ideas.

 

 

 

Reb isn't doing anything wrong. I don't understand why you feel like you have to "step up" and be some sort of police force excluding Reb from the discussion. There are plenty of people who diserve to be ignored in this conversation, but rather than ignoring them we respond to them and deconstruct their arguments. Reb is not one of them. Reb is doing the forum a great justice by logically disproving others arguments by use of facts and knowledge. He uses sarcasm a lot, and if you can't deal with that, you're going to have to step aside and watch from a distance. Perhaps sometimes he over-uses the sarcasm, but I haven't seen an instance yet as to when he's taken things too far. Some people don't respond to anything other than sarcastic comments directed at their arguments tagged with a solid counter-argument.

 

 

 

Seriously, if you have this big of an issue with Reb, perhaps it is YOU who should move along. Do not act as if you have the right to say who's voice should be heard, because YOU are NOT God, and you have no right to tell people what to do.

 

 

 

On a side note: The fact that you refer to responding to Reb as "Wasting forum space" is hilarious. Do you know what the topic of this is? It's a GIANT waste of space. Your response is just a small piece of the huge puzzle, my misguided friend.

[Shinjula]

Making a recommendation is hardly being a forum police, but as to stepping up sure. I'm quite happy to be someone who steps up in order to help keep a debate focused and on track, and in a debate like this, especially in a debate like this sarcasm is really a stupid thing to do, its already a touchy subject liable to spring up into flame war.

 

 

 

Reb may have deconstructed argument in the past in this thread and others, but that certain isnt what he's been doing over the last couple of pages, calling people ignorant and [developmentally delayed]ed is not deconstructing their arguments with facts and it is the point where he has gone just a little bit too far.

 

 

 

As for the right to tell people what to do, sure I dont, I do however have the right to suggest, which is precisely what I did. This topic may be a waste of space to you, but to me it is interesting, perhaps thats because I'm here for more than just getting jollies by shouting at christian that theyre wrong and stupid. I'm here to find out about Christians and how their belief system works rather than simply pointing my finger at them and laughing. Sure I dont agree with christianity, but i *will* respect any person who respects me.

 

 

 

I dont really have a lot of problem with reb, what I dislike is when people get into flaming wars in the middle of a topic I'm getting something out of

[Rebdragon]

For the last time, I'm not pointing a finger at Christians and laughing. I'm pointing a finger at Saru and laughing.

 

 

 

Oh, and don't worry. Your post count seems to say you're new to this, so it's understandable. The reality of the situation? This topic has been beaten to death. Over and over and over again. Nothing new ever comes out, so no one really gives a damn anymore. Not Saru, not me, not anyone. We're just doing this out of old habits.

[Shinjula]

For the last time, I'm not pointing a finger at Christians and laughing. I'm pointing a finger at Saru and laughing.

 

Yes, thats what I'm finding generally unacceptable, I would be reacting worse if you were implying it of all christians, but even insulting an individual for being an individual is still completely derailing the debate as well as weakening the position of atheists. Most Atheists as it is are having a hard enough time convincing Theists that we are aware, conscious and moral people without this sort of thing.

 

 

 

The reality of the situation? This topic has been beaten to death. Over and over and over again. Nothing new ever comes out, so no one really gives a damn anymore. Not Saru, not me, not anyone. We're just doing this out of old habits.

 

Yes I understand that you may have been debating Saru many times before, and dont actually get anything out of it, but that doesnt mean that everyone else is like that. I do get stuff out of debate because I listen and take in their arguments. I'm not as interested in proving someone wrong like you are, I'm interested in learning. As far as I was aware that was what the point of this whole thing was.

 

 

 

And if you really are just insulting him out of habit can I please ask you to consider moving along, insulting people and getting angry raises your blood pressure and is bad for you, if its not serving any purpose, why do it?

[Rebdragon]

I'm not even an atheist. I mean, hell, I could be a fundamentalist Christian (in the Barihawk (?) sense), and I'd still be pointing a finger and laughing at him. There really is no other answer to not "believing" in evolution and basic science, especially after they've been exposed to logical arguments time and time again.

 

 

 

Oh, and this calms be by the way. It's good for my health.

[Shinjula]

Oh, and this calms be by the way. It's good for my health.

 

Ah I see, so your taking out your frustrations on other people, well i suppose it fits in with your earlier statment that you're an [wagon]. Well I'm glad you've vindicated my description of you as a troll, still I've had enough of talking to you.

[Sly_Wizard]

Wasn't there a popcorn smiley at one time?

[Rebdragon]

Wasn't there a popcorn smiley at one time?

 

If someone finds one I'd like some popcorn meeself :D .

[Bunnies]

Most Atheists as it is are having a hard enough time convincing Theists that we are aware, conscious and moral people without this sort of thing.

 

 

 

My goodness, where do you live? [seriously, is discrimination against atheism that bad in your country of residence?]

 

 

 

If theists are not engaged in active and lively debate, they are not forced to consider and question their own beliefs and world views, which as Atheist, we faithfully know are wrong ;) .

 

 

 

If, as you suggested, we treat Creationism as a subject worthy of serious discussion and debate,

 

we implicity confer to it the status of a real, viable, alternative theory.

 

 

 

Which it is not.

 

 

 

Thus, personally, I feel Reb's ridicule is justified.

[Flyingjj]

Most Atheists as it is are having a hard enough time convincing Theists that we are aware, conscious and moral people without this sort of thing.

 

 

 

My goodness, where do you live? [seriously, is discrimination against atheism that bad in your country of residence?]

 

 

 

If theists are not engaged in active and lively debate, they are not forced to consider and question their own beliefs and world views, which as Atheist, we faithfully know are wrong ;) .

 

 

 

If, as you suggested, we treat Creationism as a subject worthy of serious discussion and debate,

 

we implicity confer to it the status of a real, viable, alternative theory.

 

 

 

Which it is not.

 

 

 

Thus, personally, I feel Reb's ridicule is justified.

 

Ridicule of anyone is never justified.

[Ginger_Warrior]

If theists are not engaged in active and lively debate, they are not forced to consider and question their own beliefs and world views, which as Atheist, we faithfully know are wrong ;) .

 

 

 

If, as you suggested, we treat Creationism as a subject worthy of serious discussion and debate,

 

we implicity confer to it the status of a real, viable, alternative theory.

 

Close your eyes, and repeat after me:

 

 

 

"I am right, I am right, I am right"

 

 

 

That's the only way you're gonna survive on here with a 'tude like that.

 

 

 

And, just to make this post on-topic:

 

Wasn't there a popcorn smiley at one time?

 

If someone finds one I'd like some popcorn meeself :D .

 

[Shinjula]

If, as you suggested, we treat Creationism as a subject worthy of serious discussion and debate,

 

we implicity confer to it the status of a real, viable, alternative theory.

 

 

 

Which it is not.

 

I'm actually more interested in debating about Christianity than Creationism, its a much wider field and it is worthy of serious discussion and debate.

 

I personally would argue strongly that Creationism isn't a science and certainly wouldn't subscribe to the "Teach the Controversy" especially in schools (unless its part of comparative religion), but its still a reasonable subject for a debate forum, and although it *IS* a subject which generates mostly "Yes it is", "Nah its not" responses, there are still areas of both Christianity and Creationism which aren't just the boring bits that get repeated again and again, these are the areas I'm interested in debating, in the past I've debated topics such as bible inerrancy from the point of a mathematician and godels incompleteness theroem, and the ignorance of the positive homosexual role models in the bible such as Jonathan and David and i'm sure there are many more interesting topics in religion still to discuss.

[folmer_veeman]

The point is, at some point it was 'common sense' that the world was flat, it was disproven. Nothing rules out that evolution and abiogenesis will be disproven once too. (Not saying evolution and abiogenesis are false, just making a point here.)

[Bunnies]

 

Ridicule of anyone is never justified.

 

 

 

- No? What about when they are being ridiculous?

 

 

 

 

Close your eyes, and repeat after me:

 

 

 

"I am right, I am right, I am right"

 

 

 

That's the only way you're gonna survive on here with a 'tude like that

 

 

 

 

- Unfortunately, I think you missed the irony.

 

 

 

"..which as Atheists, we faithfully know to be wrong."

 

 

 

The joke being that Atheists tend to lack 'faith' in the commonly accepted sense of the word.

 

Admitttedly, I was indulging my inner troll to a degree [he doesn't get fed very often!], so I did deserve that reprimand ;) .

 

 

 

 

I'm actually more interested in debating about Christianity than Creationism, its a much wider field and it is worthy of serious discussion and debate.

 

 

 

 

- So you are agreeing that Creationism is not worthy of serious scientific consdieration...?

 

 

 

 

There are still areas of both Christianity and Creationism which aren't just the boring bits that get repeated again and again, these are the areas I'm interested in debating, in the past I've debated topics such as bible inerrancy from the point of a mathematician and godels incompleteness theroem, and the ignorance of the positive homosexual role models in the bible such as Jonathan and David and i'm sure there are many more interesting topics in religion still to discuss.

 

 

 

 

- I'm sure there are too, but unfortuantely these tend not to be discussed in off topic gaming forums. It does tend to degenerate, something which I can appreciate you actively oppossing.

 

However, the fact that you would rather talk about something else doesn't mean that you should ignore the how wrong your opponents are in the 'done to death' parts of religious discussion :) .

 

 

 

On a side note: Could you PM me with how you'd actively apply Godel's Theorem to the Bible - done a very fast and light bit of reading and can't see someone would go about it. :oops:

 

 

 

* Arg - having trouble with quote format. Apologise for dreadful eyestrain... #-o

[Eregion]

I'm new to this thread, so I'm working off the first post. Feel free to ignore whatever isn't relevant 54 pages later. :thumbup:

 

 

 

It also reads a bit randomly, sorry about that...

 

According to the bible, the world is 6000 years old. Yet, it is PROVEN the world is approximately 4.5 billion years old. Fossils, examinations of the earths crust say that the world is billions of years old. Some people with a voice in their head is all the proof it is 6000 years old.

I've always been curious about this bit...

 

 

 

• [1]In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2]Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
   
   
   
  [3] And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. [4] God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.

 

 

 

Is there a break between verse 1 and 2, or 2 and 3? If there is, Genesis gives God credit for Creation, but does not begin the Seven Days of Creation until the creation of Light, meaning that the base form of the Earth COULD have occurred an insanely long time ago and remained as a lump of rock since. This doesn't solve the starlight problem, or the fact that dinosaur bones are hypothetically buried in rock that would long predate a 6-10K year timeline; in fact it doesn't help at all, and is pretty irrelevant. I've just been thinking over it for awhile.

 

One example is the ancient egyptions. They did not have the science and technology to know how the sun rose and set, it appeared to them to move across the sky. So they invented a god that moved the sun across the sky. Today we know that is [cabbage], and the Earth revolves around the sun - which is why it appears to move across the sky. We know this because of the science and technology we have today.

 

If "technology" to you is Aristotle and Co. pointing out that the shadow cast by the earth during an eclipse was spherical, and then Aristarchus and Eratosthenes gallivanting across 500 miles of desert to compare the angle of shadows in Syene and Alexandria on the Summer Solstice in order to calculate the circumference of the earth, then yes. But from my point of view all technology does is help us test or better analyze what we can first reason to be true. It's a tool, not a magic bullet that gives 100% answers 100% of the time. I'll always subject technology to reason, because that's the only way its useful.

 

 

 

When someone says "it was once common sense that the Earth was flat" in an effort to refute the reasonableness (or lack thereof) of Creationism, think about it. A hundred years from now I'm sure many things we consider to be "common knowledge" will be refuted, and then Creationists then might be using that same argument against the acceptance of Evolutionary theory. \