Oscar Grant (police brutality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Polic ... scar_Grant

The BART Police shooting of Oscar Grant III occurred on January 1, 2009 in Oakland, California. At approximately 2:15 AM PST, Bay Area Rapid Transit Police officers held Grant, an unarmed transit passenger, in a face-down position on a train platform at the Fruitvale BART Station. Officer Johannes Mehserle then shot Grant at point-blank range in the back. He died seven hours later at Highland Hospital.

 

 

 

Onlookers captured the shooting with cell phones and cameras which were later submitted to local news outlets. The shooting led to peaceful protests by outraged members of the public during the week of January 5th, and riots in Downtown Oakland on the night of January 7.

 

 

 

Mehserle resigned from the BART Police Department and retained legal counsel. He has not answered any questions from the news media or any one of the law enforcement agencies now investigating the incident. Mehserle has not been charged, arrested, or arraigned for the shooting.

 

 

 

A prominent Oakland Civil Rights plaintiff attorney representing Grant's daughter and girlfriend has now filed a US$25 million wrongful death civil lawsuit against the District.

 

WARNING: The following video shows the shooting. There is no blood and gore, but still, it may be disturbing for some people.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWSgG-KN ... re=related

EDIT: Well, Barihawk seems to think that all of you are [developmentally delayed]s and are therefore unable to discuss anything without a prompt/being told what to think, but okay, I'll do it anyway.

Do you think this was an accident or the officer meant to shoot him?

Do you think the idea of gun control is appealing when you see videos like this? Would you want a country where the only people with guns are working for the government?

ETC ETC, *insert more things that would have naturally been discussed as a product of conversation anyway*

Thank you for providing discussion value. This is not a link dump.

Would you want a country where the only people with guns are working for the government?

Yes.

Now excuse me while I shoot your plane down in flames.

Would you want a country where the only people with guns are working for the government?

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Now excuse me while I shoot your plane down in flames.

Good luck doing that while you're locked away in labour camp.

Maybe if the people had had guns they would have been able to fight off the totalitarian fascist force opposing them.

See how it feels to have your side blown out of proportion ridiculously? Cut that [cabbage] out

Thank you for adding commentary. That's all you need to do is provide your own input in the original post, otherwise it's just a link to a news story I would read on google homepage.

Would you want a country where the only people with guns are working for the government?

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Now excuse me while I shoot your plane down in flames.

 

 

 

Good luck doing that while you're locked away in labour camp.

 

 

 

Maybe if the people had had guns they would have been able to fight off the totalitarian fascist force opposing them.

I've news for you: Much as I have a problem with America (the country, not the land), it's nowhere near fascism. In fact, as nations come, it's actually quite free.

What it boils down for me is a simple choice: Do I panic about how they're out to get me, so I'd better arm myself quick for the impending civil war; or do I trust that my taxpayers' money goes to properly train the police on correct safety procedures and vetting (most of whom don't usually carry guns anyway)?

I choose the latter, and I get on with my life.

Would you want a country where the only people with guns are working for the government?

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Now excuse me while I shoot your plane down in flames.

 

 

 

Good luck doing that while you're locked away in labour camp.

 

 

 

Maybe if the people had had guns they would have been able to fight off the totalitarian fascist force opposing them.

 

I've news for you: Much as I have a problem with America (the country, not the land), it's nowhere near fascism. In fact, as nations come, it's actually quite free.

 

 

 

What it boils down for me is a simple choice: Do I panic about how they're out to get me, so I'd better arm myself quick for the impending civil war; or do I trust that my taxpayers' money goes to properly train the police on correct safety procedures and vetting (most of whom don't usually carry guns anyway)?

 

 

 

I choose the latter, and I get on with my life.

I'm aware of this, which is why I included the bottom part of my statement.

If we can learn anything from history, it is that these things happen gradually, and that lots of times people just roll with it. People having guns is one thing that stands in the way of a totalitarian state. We must take measures to ensure that it NEVER, EVER happens again. Sure, it doesn't look like it will happen in the next few years, but you never know a few years down the line. I'm not paranoid, and I don't think they're "out to get me" (not in that way anyway), but you have to be realistic. These things happen, and afterwards the people always say "well we were just going along with it, and then before you know it, eventually this happened" etc.

All I was doing by saying that was highlighting how stupid your statement was. Just because you could theoretically shoot down a plane doesn't mean guns should be against the law. I mean, first of all you would have to have some INSANE aim to do that, unless you had some sort of anti-aircraft gun/heat seeking missile, which is just ridiculous. I don't think people, especially here in Europe, understand or even notice the difference between the macho gun people and the people that are genuinely worried about their government. The situation I am really really scared of is that if the government continues down its road to totalitarianism (note: I'm not saying it is totalitarian, but you surely would agree that it has been going that way in the past few years/could conceivably become so in the future,) we will be in a situation where they control absolutely everything and we have no way of fighting back.

Far more 'civilians' kill people with guns than people working for the government; so while I wouldn't entirely support a society where only government workers could have firearms (hunting being a good example), imo it'd be better than anyone having the right to bear arms. This is an isolated incident really, I generally believe the police here in the UK do a good job and the same can be said for those in the US.

'Shooting your plane down in flames' is a figure of speech, meaning I "shot down" your point. You made the question sound rhetorical, so I merely reminded you there are those of us who are quite happy only having guns in the hands of the police.

Seriously, I don't actually believe you can take out an F-15 with a 9mm pistol. :|

As far as Fascism is concerned, well, let's look at Nazi Germany. The Nazis tried two routes to power. The first they tried was a military coup, the Munich Putsch. Long story short, it failed. The Nazis then chose a different path - democracy.

You see, you have to understand that fascism is not necessarily a party seizing control over a country like a parasite, and then using the country's workforce for its own evil ambitions. More often than not in history, fascists are helped into power. In Germany, anti-Semitism was incredibly high after the Treaty of Versailles, and the perception that the Jews had sold Germany short in the negotiations, and thus, that they were traitors. The Wall Street Crash caused hyperinflation, causing massive difficulty for most Germans

Can't you see it? Hard as it is for us to accept such a sophisticated country like Germany did, the Germans wanted a totalitarian despot; a strong man whom they could look to to guide them out of Germany's woes, reverse twenty years of injustice, and cleanse German society from the 'November criminals' that had betrayed the country.

Guns didn't put the Nazis in charge. The German people did.

If you want to stop fascism, listen to the people's grievances so they don't get disillusioned with democracy in the first place.

How the police officer dealt with this scenario was obviously horrible, and I'd support any official inquiry into it.

Having said that, very few police officers are actually like this. On the whole I've always been a supporter of the police force because I'd much rather have them around than not.

As for these kind of things leading to totalitarianism, I seriously doubt it. I don't think that's likely to happen in America, or any modern western country, for that matter.

Would you want a country where the only people with guns are working for the government?

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Now excuse me while I shoot your plane down in flames.

 

 

 

Good luck doing that while you're locked away in labour camp.

 

 

 

Maybe if the people had had guns they would have been able to fight off the totalitarian fascist force opposing them.

 

You do realise, if ONE shot was fired at the police the shooter would be shot dead without question, everyone knows through common sense, even if guns are carried by the common citizen the police will make sure they can outgun any enemy they face.

Do you listen to yourself when speak such crap about the country slowly being turned into a fascist state? Ireland has a well trained army, an unarmed general public and quite a large government for such a small country yet were nowhere near becoming a fascist state, no one has fears of it happening and quite simply, it wont. It's the western world, it simply wouldn't be allowed and many countrys wouldn't allow it to happen to another country either.

All of that aside though, the shooting was horrible and unjustified. I do have a small feeling though, the officer didn't intend to do such harm, could quite even be he accidentally shot the gun. Whatever the punishment is, he should face the full time granted to him, knowing what he will face in prison being a police officer. I hope he gets murder as a deterrent to officers to pull a gun in such a petty situation, while I do think though he'll get manslaughter considering he's a cop.

This happened close to where I live and is pretty much what everyone is talking about right now. I think it's sad and disgusting. The part that bothers me the most is that because he is a police officer, he can pretty much just get away with resigning (at least for the time being). If it were anyone but a police officer, they would probably be arrested/charged right away. But for whatever reason this guy can get away with it because he has a badge??? I find that to be unbelievable.

I thought you were against people having their own guns? Anyways, if other people had guns, that there would lead to more death.

I don't really know what to say. I don't believe I have an opinion for either side. Apparently the officer that killed him felt guilty, as he left the force, but I don't even know the whole story - I doubt anybody does...

I thought you were against people having their own guns? Anyways, if other people had guns, that there would lead to more death.

 

 

 

I don't really know what to say. I don't believe I have an opinion for either side. Apparently the officer that killed him felt guilty, as he left the force, but I don't even know the whole story - I doubt anybody does...

I used to be, but I had to reconcile that belief with other beliefs that I had, and it turned out that I was just picking and choosing which "freedoms" to support.

@ Kranked - I'm talking more about America, but I think you underestimate how easy it is for something like this to happen. Sure, you say "the people wouldn't let it happen," but I'm not so sure. Fascism with a fascist face no, but under the guise of something else? Easy. Who knows, maybe I'm blowing this whole thing way out of proportion.

Fascism with a fascist face no, but under the guise of something else? Easy. Who knows, maybe I'm blowing this whole thing way out of proportion.

Such as? I don't really think a politician could suddenly jump out of the cake and yell "surprise! I'm a fascist!" after being elected and then take over.

Fascism with a fascist face no, but under the guise of something else? Easy. Who knows, maybe I'm blowing this whole thing way out of proportion.

 

Such as? I don't really think a politician could suddenly jump out of the cake and yell "surprise! I'm a fascist!" after being elected and then take over.

You're right, it really couldn't happen. There's no possible way to take over the American gov't without a straight up armed rebellion (no branch of the gov't has enough power. The most they could do is slow down how quickly things happen while they're in office and maybe abuse some powers). Then you'd have to face the US Army. At least it would bring some troops home..

"Who do we fear? Who do we trust? How do we know?"

On the whole I agree with Warrior.

The cop absolutely meant to shoot this guy. There's no question about that, imo.

As for gun control, I think I've made my opinion on that clear in the thread regarding the issue. I am for it, and this backs up my opinion on the issue. If the cop has a taser in this situation, the victim is still alive.

Thats messed up in a major way, That Cop should be charged to the full extent of the law imo.

Anyway as far the whole, Gun control = ease for a totalitarium/facist state to exist/come to power is just nonsence as far as I can tell. The simple fact that numerous countries, who are historically more right wing, have gun control in place and have democratic systems is a massive flaw in the whole argument.

For instance if several people on that train had guns, some of which who may have knew the person who was killed, there possibly could have a fire fight and there'd be several deaths. The only real scenerio which could have resolved that situation is if the policeman didnt have a gun either.

I've been following this through editorials in a local newspaper... Minus gun control arguments, it's nearly the same general opinion as here.

The one difference was that one police officer sent a letter stating that the job requires training for the kind of split-second decision that was made in this incident. Yes, the officer should be charged, though it should only involve the officer in question. It was his mistake, not necessarily evidence that the entire system and everyone involved is flawed and corrupt.

Though this is starting to look similar to what caused that riot in Greece... There actually were sections of the related articles where people did want to riot against the police.

While I advocate allowing the average citizen to have APPROVED access to firearms, there should be tests to weed out the idiots like this from having a gun. This is less of a gun control problem and more of a police idiocy problem. Rule number one of having a capable police force: REGULATE RECRUITMENT!!! If you just give any idiot a badge and a gun, silly stuff like this WILL happen.

I find it interesting that nobody considers the officer's side. It's not as if he just killed the guy for no reason.

If it turns out that he did, however... :wall:

I find it interesting that nobody considers the officer's side. It's not as if he just killed the guy for no reason.

 

 

 

If it turns out that he did, however... :wall:

It's hard to consider his side when he hasn't even given his side :? The man was unarmed and restrained, there should have been no reason to shoot him. If there was a good reason, I'm sure the officer would have explained himself, but he has yet to do so.

I find it interesting that nobody considers the officer's side. It's not as if he just killed the guy for no reason.

 

 

 

If it turns out that he did, however... :wall:

For some reason I can't explain, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty perhaps.

But yea, he hasn't given his side. Eh.

Speaking of his side, this is as close as there is, I think:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

San Francisco Chronicle website featuring the article. If you don't trust it, don't click it.

This is mainly where I have problems with incident:

According to a family friend, Mehserle's parents have left their home in Napa because of death threats stemming from the BART incident.

This, I think, is disgusting. Eye for an eye-style punishments usually solve nothing and make you just as bad as the one you're against. This is 2009, we should probably be above this by now...

That would have turned out so much better if the police officer had a taser instead of a gun. Even if it was too brutal, the guy would have probably survived.