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Inferno Adze Methods and Exp


JohnPax

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Currently have some RL things going on so the completion of this guy is going to take a little longer then expected.

 

 

 

Banner3.jpg

 

28.502% of Logs cut are Burnt

 

 

 

Guide News and Updates

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]9.1.09: Transferred to General Guides Sub-forum
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]12.1.09: Removed Unnecessary Images

 

 

 

Things To Expect

 


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 6: Powercutting and Mage Burning.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 7: Cutting and Banking Eucalyptus Logs
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Fixing of General Typos/Formatting issues

 

 

 

Welcome to my first ever guide, the "Inferno Adze Methods and Exp".

 

 

 

In this guide I hope to share and gather information to help others and myself along the way to better understand the Inferno Adze and how It can help you in your training. Firstly, what to expect in this guide; a detailed inisght into the most commonly used methods and new ones to most of you, exp ratios given by different players to insure accuracy, general tips every day Woodcutting even if you haven't unlocked the adze and logs/time required to obtain 99 woodcutting.

 

 

 

Please Note that in this guide the axe used in all exp results is the Inferno Adze, when burning logs fire gloves and ring are worn, no lumberjack results are given at this stage and all links in the guide are safe. All exp are averages over many tests, some done in 1 run time spans, 10 minute time spans and 1 hour time spans; It's as accurate as It can be.

 

 

 

Table of Content

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]About the Adze
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]How you can help
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]General Woodcutting Tips
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Adze Woodcutting Tips
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 1: Power cutting Teaks on Atoll
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 2: Cutting and Burning Teaks on Atoll
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 3: Cutting and Parceling Teaks on Karamja
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 4: Cutting Willows at Draynor Village
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 5: Cutting and Burning Willows Rimmington
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Summary
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Helpers and Thanks

 

 

 

About the Adze

 

AxeGlovesandRing-1.jpg

 

The Inferno Adze, Flame Gloves and Ring of Fire

 

 

 

To obtain the Inferno Adze you must complete the quest All Fired Up and light all 14 beacons simultaneously in the Beacon Network mini-game. The Adze can be used a woodcutting axe with the same power of a dragon axe, or a pick axe with same power of a rune pick axe. You need 41 mining to use it as a pick axe and 61 woodcutting to use it as a woodcutting axe. There is a chance that if you're cutting logs, the Adze will burn the log, giving both the normal woodcutting and firemaking experience. The axe cannot be used to chop trees for your kingdom in Miscellania and Etceteria as 'You might burn some of the logs!'. A positive about the adze over the dragon axe, besides it burning capabilities, is that the Inferno adze will automatically stop cutting a tree when it turns into an ent, meaning it cannot be broken. For more information check it out on the tip.it database

 

 

 

Here is a picture of the axe in action taken from the tip.it mini-game guide on the Beacon Network.

 

 

 

beacon_inferno_adze.gif

 

 

 

How you can help

 

All helpers will be credited and thanked in this guide. Anyone can help in this guide by pointing out flaws, sections that could be worded better, asking for new methods to be investigated, feel as if I missed something or just giving me general feedback on the guide. If you want to give some exp results to make this a much better guide you must own and be able to use the Inferno Adze, use the fire ring and gloves if burning the logs you cut and submit your results like this;

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Woodcutting Level:
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method:
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Exp gained in Woodcutting:
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Exp gained in Firemaking:
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Time Recorded:
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Logs Cut:
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Logs Burned by Adze:

 

As you can see this is a fair bit of information so I really do appreciate anyone who can help.

 

 

General Woodcutting Tips

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Use the best axe that you can, the time does add up in the long run.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]If you do decide to 'afk' the skill buy browsing runeh...tip.it forums then have your in-game sound on so that you know when
     
    you stop cutting, when you get a random, when you get a nest drop and when you're inventory is full!
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Don't check your exp every 10 minutes, you will only see miniature exp gains and be put off for the long run.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Don't empty your nest when you get it as you lose an inventory space or a log. Going to 99 this would add up to around 3 hours.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Don't expect to get the top exp right away, the methods all take a while to get into the motion.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Be careful of the log out timer

 

 

 

Adze Woodcutting Tips

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]If you can, get the adze. It burns the logs as you cut them meaning more time at the tree before needing to bank meaning more exp per hour.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]The cut 1 log, drop 1 log method is to difficult to do when using the adze as the logs get burnt. I recommend filling an inventory and then dropping all.

 

 

 

Methods One Through to Five

 

 

 

[hide=Method 1]How To Get There

 


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]To complete this method with ease I HIGHLY recommend completing Monkey Madness and the Ape Atoll portion of Recipe for Disaster.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]First off, get your GreeGree, Adze and teleport runes and then teleport to Ape Atoll.
     
    FromTeleporttoTrees.jpg

 

One: Here equip your GreeGree for protection from all things on the island.

 

Two: Walk down the steps to find yourself at the Monkey Guards training spot.

 

Three: Walk west until you come across large gates, walk through these.

 

Four: Walk south-east until you find the rare tree icon, stand between the two teak trees cutting the ones with the red dots at the base.

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]If you get lost, here is the route marked out on a
world map.
 
[*:p0a9sqke]It is actually faster to go to the Ape Atoll spot via the traditional Daero > Waydar > Lumdo way, since there is much less of a walk this way. (Thank-you Chenjs2!) This is not my recommended route as it is quicker but more complicated, to complicated for this simply guide.

 

 

 

Instructions to complete one cycle of the method


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]Once at the location shown begin cutting teaks making sure you always have your GreeGree equip.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Once your inventory is full you need to drop all of the logs to start the cycle again. The simplest way is to quite easily 'right-click' 'drop' and this is the method I use but as of late mouse keys have been arising in the game meaning a whole new way of dropping items, and a heck of a lot quicker then it was before. To completely understand the process if you're unfamiliar I recommend you take a look at
Wakka's guide to Mousekeys. If you are using mouse keys or using the wrist (carpel tunnel :S) Drop from top to bottom and then back to the top always.

 

 

 

This section is based on averages, not 100% accurate.

 

 

 

Results of one cycle

 

91 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]145 seconds To complete
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]37 Logs cut with 9 Burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]3,145 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]991 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]4,136 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Results of one Hour

 

91 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]918 Logs cut with 223 Logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]78,082 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]24,604 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]102,686 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Going from 70-99 Using this Method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]144,669 cut with 35,140 logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]3,869,304 firemaking exp gained
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Taking ~157 Hours

 

 

 

Idea behind this method

 

This is so far the best known method for exp in Woodcutting. In my few weeks of cutting here I only have needed to hop worlds a small handful of times showing that it's a rarely used spot.[/hide]

 

[hide=Method 2]How To Get There

 


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]To complete this method with ease I HIGHLY recommend completing Monkey Madness and the Ape Atoll portion of Recipe for Disaster.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]First off, get your GreeGree, Adze, Tinderbox and teleport runes and then teleport to Ape Atoll.
     
    FromTeleporttoTrees.jpg

 

One: Here equip your GreeGree for protection from all things on the island.

 

Two: Walk down the steps to find yourself at the Monkey Guards training spot.

 

Three: Walk west until you come across large gates, walk through these.

 

Four: Walk south-east until you find the rare tree icon, stand between the two teak trees cutting the ones with the red dots at the base.


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]If you get lost, here is the route marked out on a
world map.
 
[*:p0a9sqke]It is actually faster to go to the Ape Atoll spot via the traditional Daero > Waydar > Lumdo way, since there is much less of a walk this way. (Thank-you Chenjs2!) This is not my recommended route as it is quicker but more complicated, to complicated for this simply guide.

 

 

 

Instructions to complete one cycle of the method


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]Once at the location shown begin cutting teaks making sure you always have your GreeGree equip.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]This is where method 2 differs from method 1. Once your inventory is full walk east-south-east to the base of this tree to begin firemaking;
     
    BeginBurninghere.jpg
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Once finished run back to the teaks and repeat the process.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]As the location is so far from a bank I recommend banking when your inventory looks something like this
     
    EndInvo.jpg

 

 

 

This section is based on averages, not 100% accurate.

 

 

 

Results of one cycle

 

88 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]242 seconds To complete
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]43 Logs cut with 43 Burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]3,655 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]4,849 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]8,504 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Results of one Hour

 

88 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]639 Logs cut with 639 Logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]54,372 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]72,134 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]126,504 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Going from 70-99 Using this Method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]144,669 cut with 144,669 logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]15,956,991 firemaking exp gained
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Taking ~226 Hours

 

 

 

Idea behind this method

 

This is so far the best known method for overall exp in Firemaking and Woodcutting. In my few weeks of cutting here I only have needed to hop worlds a small handful of times showing that it's a rarely used spot. If your goal is to level both firemaking and woodcutting this is truly the best spot to use.[/hide]

 

[hide=Method 3]How to get there

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]This image gives a fairly good idea on how to get to the Woodcutting location. To use this method you must start the
Jungle Cleanup Minigame
 
Map-1.jpg

 

 

 

Instructions to complete one cycle of the method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Once inside the Tree compound stand here cutting the four trees with the red dots at their bases.
     
    Stand.jpg
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Once your inventory is full run west until you find Rionasta, when you do right-click "Send-Parcel"
     
    ParcelerGuy.jpg
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Then run back east to the compound to repeat the process. Make sure to use the quick pay option for greater speeds.
     
    quickpay.jpg

 

 

 

This section is based on averages, not 100% accurate.

 

 

 

Results of one cycle

 

91 Woodcutting

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]170 seconds To complete
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]35 Logs cut with 8 Burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]27 Logs Banked; profiting 2,600gp
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]2,975 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]882 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]3,857 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Results of one Hour

 

91 Woodcutting

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]741 Logs cut with 169 Logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]572 Logs banked; profiting 55,059gp
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]62,985 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]18,632 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]81,617 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Going from 70-99 Using this Method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]144,669 cut with 41,233 logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]4,545,938 firemaking exp gained
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]103,436 logs Banked; profiting 9,960,503gp
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Taking ~226 Hours

 

 

 

Idea behind this method

 

Teaks are becoming commonly used to train woodcutting as they are proven to produce better results then willows, once thought the best. This method also takes advantage of the price of teaks used in construction by parceling the teaks back to your bank for later sale. Great way of training if you want to make a decent buck of the exp.[/hide]

 

[hide=Method 4]Instructions to complete one cycle of the method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke] Get to Draynor Village either by Glory or walking.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke] Walk, with your axe, South-West of the bank, Slightly North of the fishing icon where there are 7 willow trees.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke] To find the best place you may need to look at how many people may be there, to avoid the popular tree. If however you're lucky you will be alone and can have the trees all to yourself. If so;
     
    StandHere.jpg
     
    Here you have ease of access to 3 willows.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke] Once you have a full inventory of logs bank with the south most bank booth and head back to the trees to start again.

 

 

 

This section is based on averages, not 100% accurate.

 

 

 

Results of one cycle

 

88 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]184 seconds To complete
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]42 Logs cut with 14 Burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]504 gp Profit from 28 logs banked
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]2,833 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]1,323 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]4,156 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Results of one Hour

 

88 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]822 Logs cut with 274 Logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]9,864 gp gained from 548 logs banked
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]55,428 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]25,884 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]81,312 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Going from 70-99 Using this Method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]182,705 cut with 56,639 logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]5,097,510 firemaking exp gained
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]2,269,188 gp gained from 126,066 logs banked.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Taking ~222 Hours

 

 

 

Remember to bank all nests as they will add up to a few hundred k in rewards.

 

 

 

Idea behind the method

 

This is the standard way of training Woodcutting and is most commonly used by f2p players, rarely seen in this spot are p2p players but I still consider this spot a great source of exp.[/hide]

 

[hide=Method 5]Instructions to complete one cycle

 


  •  
    [*:p0a9sqke]Make your way to the group of willows south-east of Rimmington and south of the mine.
     
    Map.jpg
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]When you get to the location stand here;
     
    StandHere-1.jpg
     
    Although It looks like you can cut the 3 trees in the L shape you can't, the three trees you should cut are the three with the red dots at their feet.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Once you have a full inventory it's time to burn the logs, run east until you're near the summoning icon where you will see the formation of rocks in the image below, Start here.
     
    StartBurningHere.jpg
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Nest drops are the things that dictate when you bank, this is what you're inventory should look like when you bank; 4 nests, tinderbox and an inventory full of logs.
     
    TinderboxHere.jpgBankNow.jpg

 

 

 

This section is based on averages, not 100% accurate.

 

 

 

Results of one cycle

 

88 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]190 seconds To complete
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]35 Logs cut with 8 Burnt by adze, 27 burnt by tinderbox.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]2,430 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]3,402 exp gained in firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]5,832 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Results of one Hour

 

88 Woodcutting:

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]663 Logs cut with 663 Logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]46,042 exp gained in woodcutting
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]64,458 exp gained in Firemaking
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]110,500 Total exp gained

 

 

 

Going from 70-99 using this method

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]182,705 cut with 182,705 logs burnt
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]16,443,450 firemaking exp gained
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Taking ~267 hours

 

 

 

Idea behind the method

 

This is another method used in f2p but only usually by those more experienced and understand the exp gain in both woodcutting and firemaking. It's great for p2p as It is rarely occupied meaning no competition and it also offers balanced exp in both Woodcutting and Firemaking. I recommend this spot if you're focusing on leveling in both woodcutting and firemaking and you are for some reason unable to use Method 2.[/hide]

 

Summary

 

As each method is completed with at least 1 set of test results they will be put into this section to rank them from 1-6 for; Total exp gain, Woodcutting exp gain, Firemaking exp gain and Gp gain.

 

 

 

Total exp gain

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Method 2: 126,504exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 5: 110,500exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 1: 102,686exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 3: 81,617exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 4: 81,312exp/hr

 

Woodcutting exp

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Method 1: 78,082exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 3: 62,985exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 4: 55,428exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 2: 54,372exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 5: 46,042exp/hr

 

Firemaking exp

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Method 2: 72,134exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 5: 64,458exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 4: 25,884exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 1: 24,604exp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 3: 18,632exp/hr

 

Gp gain

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]Method 3: 55,059gp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 4: 9,864gp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 5: 0gp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 1: 0gp/hr
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Method 2: 0gp/hr

 

 

 

 

Helpers and Thanks

 

  • [*:p0a9sqke]A Big thanks to Tip.it for the Links, forums and images.
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]Referenced Guides; Wakka and Zarfot
     
    [*:p0a9sqke]All Mistake Finders; pantim, doogsidoof and Chenjs2

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nice guide, but i did notice 1 problem. In the summary section, for method 4 you used the gp per trip as the gp earned per hour, it should be 55,059 gp/hr instead of 2,600 gp/hr

 

 

 

overall great guide ::'

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Owner of a Quest cape since 9/11/08

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It's not about the other people, its about shooting cute furry things that explode.
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Nothing entirely groundbreaking, but I must say it is a very concise and readable guide

 

 

 

Three things:

 

1. Draynor is spelt wrongly

 

2. Karamja is spelt wrongly

 

3. It is actually faster to go to the Ape Atoll spot via the traditional Daero > Waydar > Lumdo way, since there is much less of a walk this way.

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Although you get randoms at Tai Bwo Wannai village, some people might prefer it to Ape Atoll when powercutting because there is a sound effect when cutting, so you can hear if you've stopped, and there are two spots with two trees you can cut without moving, instead of just one spot.

 

 

 

I also remember collecting some data that the adze burned like 29.9% of the logs I cut, so I assumed it was exactly 30%. Are you sure it's less than that?

 

 

 

You also said that cutting and burning teaks is the best overall method to train woodcutting and firemaking, but it would be faster xp to powercut teaks and then buy yew, eucalyptus, or magic logs and burn them. Although more expensive, that could be a better method for some people.

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Nothing entirely groundbreaking, but I must say it is a very concise and readable guide

 

 

 

Three things:

 

1. Draynor is spelt wrongly

 

2. Karamja is spelt wrongly

 

3. It is actually faster to go to the Ape Atoll spot via the traditional Daero > Waydar > Lumdo way, since there is much less of a walk this way.

 

 

 

Thank-you Chenjs2 for spotting the typos and for telling me that there is a better way to Atoll. I would personally list this as route 2 in priority as I believe it would be easier to just teleport then walk, even if it is slower. I wasn't really aiming to change the way we all see woodcutting #-o Just to help people better understand how good the inferno adze is in training.

 

 

 

Although you get randoms at Tai Bwo Wannai village, some people might prefer it to Ape Atoll when powercutting because there is a sound effect when cutting, so you can hear if you've stopped, and there are two spots with two trees you can cut without moving, instead of just one spot.

 

 

 

I also remember collecting some data that the adze burned like 29.9% of the logs I cut, so I assumed it was exactly 30%. Are you sure it's less than that?

 

 

 

You also said that cutting and burning teaks is the best overall method to train woodcutting and firemaking, but it would be faster xp to powercut teaks and then buy yew, eucalyptus, or magic logs and burn them. Although more expensive, that could be a better method for some people.

 

 

 

Zarfot, I would think if someone was committed to powercutting they would be watching the screen, but if you stop cutting for whatever reason it does still take a while to figure it out in 'monkey mode'. I'll contemplate changing the recommended location to Tai Bwo Wannai village but first I'll have to get an idea on how many randoms I would get on average per hour to see if it would be worth it.

 

 

 

Concerning the adze burning rates the only thing I do not like about the axe is that the rate is interiorly random. I gathered the data for the rate of burning from doing the 5 methods and also from firemaking exp gained from 10k willows. From the 10k willow results I got from memory 32% logs burnt and then from the reading of the 5 methods I got closer to 25% :wall: I cannot remember the exact numbers but as of now I have burnt 28% of the logs I cut. Most people would say take the 10k willow result as it would have greater accuracy but I believe the result I has reflects the 'luck of the Adze', It has it's bad burning moments and it's good burning moments. However I believe as I keep woodcutting I would get more and more results in favour of a ~30% burning rate.

 

 

 

As for powercutting then burning banked logs, I actually never thought of that =D> That would most certainly be the best overall exp and I may do an half an hour of powercutting and then half an hour of magic burning to add this as another method even though I had really intended to have this guide as a way of training both skills simultaneously without spending a small fortune.

 

 

 

Thank-you for your advise and input.

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As for powercutting then burning banked logs, I actually never thought of that =D> That would most certainly be the best overall exp and I may do an half an hour of powercutting and then half an hour of magic burning to add this as another method even though I had really intended to have this guide as a way of training both skills simultaneously without spending a small fortune.

 

 

 

Thank-you for your advise and input.

 

Rather than switching every half hour, it would make more sense to do all your powercutting first, then do all your firemaking. You also wouldn't need to do any special testing...just average the rates from the two methods together. :thumbup:

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Ahh you miss understood my intentions. By that I meant that I would record the exp from powercutting teaks in half an hour and then switch to magic logs and get their exp over half an hour in order to produce my exp/hr results to then compare them to the other methods. :thumbup:

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It could be faster but that particular method, I would not add to my guide. The method at Draynor covers cutting and banking willows I would think the time difference would be minimal. Also this method was included to also give some rates for f2p players and an alternate to teaks on Atoll for p2p.

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Nice guide. There is another way to cut willows, which is if you bank with a Custom Locker or something like that. You can do it after you complete Rocking Out. I only know the very general details, having not done the quest, and have only seen this method in a few guides. However I think it's worth adding.

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