34 replies to this topic

[decebal]

Crocefisso, on 20 August 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

decebal, I would be interested to hear in more detail where your interpretation on the use of 'troll' differs, as I am aware that to an extent claiming 'misuse' depends on my own experience.

This is my thought process: there is no higher up that has created language and said "it is thus so". Language evolved when our brain restructured itself 200 thousand (or was it 100 thousand?) years ago, which allowed us to produce and understand language. Ever since then, language has evolved, and is also currently evolving, with new words entering the English language constantly. However, what words are officially part of the English language, and which are jargon? The way a language officially enters the English lagnuage is when it is recognized by a major dictionary publisher, such as Oxford or Webster (words such as "google" have recently been recognized like this).

Pulling out an old copy of Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary that I have lying around from 1988 (therefore it may be outdated), the definition of "troll" is as follows:

Quote

troll: 1. v.t. to sing (a song) in a loud, jolly, carefree way || to fish in (a lake, etc.) or to fish for, by drawing a line with a spoon attached behind a boat. || v.i. to fish in this way || to sing away loudly and merrily || 2. n. the act of trolling || the spoon or spoon and line used in trolling || (Br.) the reel of a fishing rod [etym. doubtful]
troll: n. (Scand. mythol.) one of the supernatural beings, formerly thought of as giants, but later as dwarves, inhabiting caves, hills etc. [O.N.]

Your definition of troll is not included in the above definition, nor is it in any other recognized dictionary. However, there is some merit towards the idea that your definition is correct, as the users of the language define it. That being said, because the users of the language, such as you and me, define the language in ways that are not recognized by official entities, you cannot discount the way someone uses a word, when you  are not using an official definition of said word, either.

tl;dr: Language is defined by who uses it, which means that dictionaries can be wrong because they don't include jargon, Crocefisso may be wrong because he is not using an official definition, and the "misusers" of the word "troll" may also be wrong because of the same reason. It all depends.

[Kimberly]

Slang terms are always fluid and changing in meaning, but that doesn't mean that people can still use a word that doesn't apply to the situation. In that sense, I agree with Crocefisso that people frequently use the word troll when they simply have no other means to counter what people are saying, or if what people are saying makes them particularly upset. That is a problem, because likely those who do that end up getting warned anyway - after all, if you're calling someone a troll, isn't that sparking a negative reaction and serving no constructive purpose...aka trolling? And that's where the education aspect comes in as a moderator, although as Crocefisso also pointed out, the education mods seek at this point in the process doesn't always pan out as hoped for. There really isn't a lot of alternative there. It's where articles like Crocefisso's come into play that hopefully spread awareness to spark the community to change itself. It doesn't have to be a jubilee event like a Breast Cancer Awareness parade, but a quiet individual choice to just try to use a different term for the common troll. Things like that can make a huge impact without people really even noticing it.

(I realized I kind of addressed Crocefisso and decebal in one post with no distinction...sorry for the confusion @_@)

[Pinata]

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

[Platinum_Myr]

Pinata, on 21 August 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

Why not make it a % activity over the whole dungeon? That might be harder to track but you could track real time like... you need to be active for more than 80% of the dungeon time. That would mean that for really short floors AFK would be bad, but for longer floors you could afk for a little bit without trouble. (And active means gathering resources or attacking monsters or something like that?)

[Pinata]

Platinum_Myr, on 21 August 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Pinata, on 21 August 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

Why not make it a % activity over the whole dungeon? That might be harder to track but you could track real time like... you need to be active for more than 80% of the dungeon time. That would mean that for really short floors AFK would be bad, but for longer floors you could afk for a little bit without trouble. (And active means gathering resources or attacking monsters or something like that?)

Idk, they could make it similar to pest control. But instead of a damage limit, have an activity limit. Skilling, combat, opening doors is what will increase it, and once you reach x amount of activity you will gain xp at the end of the floor.

However, I would rather them deal with Castle wars. They can't add a activity bar there w/o ruining gameplay, but I just wish they would do something about the loafers. Dungeoneering is kind of selling a service. Still seems like the "wrong" way to train the skill. But that is obviously just my opinion.

[The Marquis]

I am pleasantly surprised with the quality of this weeks Times. The 'troll' article was a good read, even though difficult to follow at times (probably my fault, because I'm not a native English speaker).

I agree with the previous posters that instead of the leechers in Dungeoneering, something must be done with the F2P part, especially the 90 combat line (I found out that I'm combat 91 when I turned F2P, FML). At the moment it's difficult to find a party that would suit you and to avoid that you can't even go solo due to the experience reduction.

:: I laughed really hard at the League of Legends reference how many times i've been annoyed at Garen (or Wukong even)

[Arceus]

Pinata, on 21 August 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

The best hope to knock off that penalty would be with the upcoming EoC update.

P.S. There is no sharp cut off at level 90!  It falls off slowly as average party combat level increases.  I would love to post my image but I believe it it blocked with the new rules, but you can go here to find it.  Basically Adjusted Prestige equates to experience.

[Pinata]

Arceus, on 21 August 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Pinata, on 21 August 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

The best hope to knock off that penalty would be with the upcoming EoC update.

P.S. There is no sharp cut off at level 90!  It falls off slowly as average party combat level increases.  I would love to post my image but I believe it it blocked with the new rules, but you can go here to find it.  Basically Adjusted Prestige equates to experience.

Aww I've probably done less than 100k Dg xp in f2p. So I don't really know how it works. I just know they have 3 low lvls to reduce like you said average party combat level, and that a activity bar would ruin f2p dungeoneering, unless they made it so you didn't need those low level loafs for the best xp.

[decebal]

Pinata, on 21 August 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Arceus, on 21 August 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Pinata, on 21 August 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

The best hope to knock off that penalty would be with the upcoming EoC update.

P.S. There is no sharp cut off at level 90! It falls off slowly as average party combat level increases. I would love to post my image but I believe it it blocked with the new rules, but you can go here to find it. Basically Adjusted Prestige equates to experience.

Aww I've probably done less than 100k Dg xp in f2p. So I don't really know how it works. I just know they have 3 low lvls to reduce like you said average party combat level, and that a activity bar would ruin f2p dungeoneering, unless they made it so you didn't need those low level loafs for the best xp.

To add to that, even though there is no "cutoff" at level 90, the effects of the nerf start being felt at around level 90.

Kimberly, on 20 August 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Slang terms are always fluid and changing in meaning, but that doesn't mean that people can still use a word that doesn't apply to the situation. In that sense, I agree with Crocefisso that people frequently use the word troll when they simply have no other means to counter what people are saying, or if what people are saying makes them particularly upset. That is a problem, because likely those who do that end up getting warned anyway - after all, if you're calling someone a troll, isn't that sparking a negative reaction and serving no constructive purpose...aka trolling? And that's where the education aspect comes in as a moderator, although as Crocefisso also pointed out, the education mods seek at this point in the process doesn't always pan out as hoped for. There really isn't a lot of alternative there. It's where articles like Crocefisso's come into play that hopefully spread awareness to spark the community to change itself. It doesn't have to be a jubilee event like a Breast Cancer Awareness parade, but a quiet individual choice to just try to use a different term for the common troll. Things like that can make a huge impact without people really even noticing it.

(I realized I kind of addressed Crocefisso and decebal in one post with no distinction...sorry for the confusion @_@)

No need to apologize, we were both talking about the same subject anyway.

I still don't agree with putting a specific definition on slang terms. Using your example of someone crying "troll", that is not an example of trolling, as the poster did not have the intent to provoke the other poster for humorous reasons, which is the slang definition you see thrown about usually. When someone is calling another "troll" and the person is not in fact trolling and initiates a fight, that is flaming.

To be quite honest, I'd preffer if the usage of "troll" is discouraged. "Troll" when used "improperly" will lead to flaming and a locked thread many times, and when used correctly will successfully feed the troll if done in an accusatory manner, giving the troll more reason to keep on trolling. Either way you use it, the end result is unacceptable on these boards. Why not just ignore the troll altogether?

[Ren]

Did anyone else notice that the article itself seems like a giant troll, and the whole first page is about how people feel about Dungeoneering??


Like, am I seeing shit right now, is this real life???

I'd just like to throw in that the article wasn't appealing to me, and thought that everyone related wasted their time. Just my opinion I guess.

[Hamtaro]

My article was a giant "troll?" Read the featured article this week so you learn to say "I don't like this" instead of "your an troll."

[Spydr_Queen]

12 things (still wrong) with Runescape article: I agree with much of what you have said in this article, however:
Dungeoneering, while fun, is a mini-game and those leeches are annoying. The bot nuke from October did succeed, at firs,t and people last year complained about Jagex not caring because they got money from most of the bot accounts, but they still released it. Bots are still a problem and Jagex is NOT ignoring the problem, in the last week we have seen several actions taken against botters and bug abusers. I have faith that the next Bot Nuke is coming soon. The so-called holiday events are fun, but the rewards need massive re-works as they are never really worth it (the icicle and summer crowns from Spring 2011 were awesome, but more recent rewards have not been). The SoF is a bit of fun for me, at least the free spins are. I will NEVER buy spins, or Rune-coins, so I am happy to be part of the solution, however far too many idiot children are spending money on the Squeal and Solomon's for these things to go away. 6 quests in 8 months is not truly bad in my opinion and as for some being novice, this is mainly because the novices were being largely ignored. The recent penguin quest was in the mid-level range, and two of the high level quests released within the last year, I have not been able to do. Jagex is smart to release many quests that cover all levels.  There is a way to deal with the pm's from gold farmers advertising their websites. Right click ignore and then report! Jagex IS going through the reports!  And finally, IVP is ultimately an entity that wants money, lots and lots of money and for now they are getting it.

Troll article: I am one of those who has no real problem detecting internet/forum trolls. I never accuse someone of being a troll simply because they disagree with me. I do however consider people who call others names, or belittle their comments, trolls. They are the essence of a troll. They are rude, crude, nasty and ugly (at least in words), thus they are trolls. I do agree with you that the word is being way over-used and mis-used, that is why I am very careful when I employ its use. And I usually stop responding to someone that I have identified as trolling/flaming. My usual comment is this; "You, sir (or ma'am), are a troll and deserve no further comment from me."  This does not stop the troll from continuing to bait me, but I rarely fall for this circular trap.

[ViolaWoman]

I have just finished reading the 3 parts to the excellent article by Monogamy and must comment. I was a leader and co-leader of SpiritZ for close to a year and I can attest to all the heart ache and exhilaration that Damian writes about.

The fact that we become torn between what we know is proper and best for the clan, I think becomes secondary. Damian, although he writes about it and illustrates dramatic tension between himself, his friends and his girlfriend, ultimately tries to do what is best for his Clan. This is what I always tried to do, and what we all wanted to do as Leaders in SpiritZ.

Sometimes, we had what seems now like endless debates that went on for weeks; good and evil. Timeless struggles about right and wrong. It may seem utterly laughable to outsiders, but the fact that we are not just fighting over mere pixels but we understand that we are deciding the fates of people on the other end of the screens must be taken into account.

At the end of the day, we are not callous. We're not just jaded people and we're not babies. We're grown men and women, lots of us are in our fifties and sixties (Egad!) and a few of us are across the pond. Raise a glass in your honor, ladies and gents. To the age of Runescape and chivalry! Huzzah!

[Kaida23]

ViolaWoman, on 23 August 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Raise a glass in your honor, ladies and gents. To the age of Runescape and chivalry! Huzzah!

Well said. Salute!

[gray_magus]

I started playin around 2005-2006, if you had 1 mill you were the man/woman... I totally agree with with the 12 things most wrong with runescape, and boycotting the purchasing of runecoins and spins. And how much longer must we wait for the new bot nuke, I can't imagine them needing too many more bot memberships-----dripping with disdain