Zepheras

I bet on ruby dragons Wait, it can't be this direct. Maybe it's a code word for FTP3.

It's meant to be that way. Firemaking has a use in Daemonheim.

Which is exactly why so many people hate slayer, right? Oh wait. People love slayer. The only thing that makes you better at slayer is outside skills (combats) and the only thing a higher slayer level lets you do is more slayer. Yeah. Its clear to me. Crystal clear. Nobody enjoys this type of a skill :unsure: :rolleyes: I don't like Slayer that much during its initial stage where majority of the slayer specific monsters are found in a tower and dungeon, along with a mixture of non-slayer specific monster just to increase the variety. Of course, as time passes by more slayer specific monsters have been added in other parts of the areas, along with slayer rewards that helps slayer training as well as combat skills. You get runes for slayer dart, not fire surge. You get broad tipped bolts/arrows, not onyx tipped bolts. You unlock the slayer helm to help your tasks, not farming scrolls. The average guy is going to say that they love slayer because it's profitable, which is like me saying I love dungeoneering because I get level 80 weapons out of it. I'll wait till the second batch of the update to see how the skill ties in with the rest of the world though. "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." If names and categories aren't important, might as well call activities skills as well, if you're going to blur the lines differentiating them. They are fun, their rewards benefit other skills. Awesome rewards, actually. But I have to ask about how that would help you become more experienced at the Dungeoneering skill. I thought the benefits had to be recursive as well, according to Qeltar's arguments. You already are. You are a dungeoneer in any dungeon, and the innate abilities you've unlocked gives you an edge over other players who aren't. More of the abilites can be added to the list to take effect in Daemonheim as well.

When you finish the quest series, the portals would be sealed, void knights would bid you farewell and retire to their hometown. You save day the and end the long years to fighting back void monsters. In other words, no more PC.

I enjoyed the first scenerio of MA actually. It's fun when you meet someone who knows his/her strategy and wants to win.

If your experiment did not take into account accuracy, how did you go about testing each weapon?

Then you better pray that Jagex still has some common sense left. Slayer was pushing it, Dungeoneering is pushing it right to the edge. For all you know Warcrafting might be next.

Actually, there was a HUGE manipulation going on. RWTers/Macroers/Gold Farmers saturated the market with items, and dictated the prices due to their online prices. You could buy 1m gold for something like, $3, or 10k sharks, or 10k yews. Lobsters cost 250 each, not because they were worth that much, but because RWTers were willing to sell them for that much, in relation to 1M gold. The ability for players to dictate their own prices was a direct result of nixing RWTing. And actually, now that players know that they can manipulate market prices with collective buying power, whether the GE gets removed or not won't alter anything. In fact, giving back free trade now would just allow players to buy a ruby from you for 5k today and ask for 20k tomorrow.

Why the heck did you resurrect this thread? :blink:

Which one makes sense to you? Coal bags and weapons and scrolls for new prayer, or these? You train mining by mining ores to get better ores, you train dungeoneering by accessing and completing floors to gain access deeper floors. But don't forget, the concept of mining and miners is a single entity, neither exists without the other. Yet exploring dungeons has been something players did for years. It's not as if Runescape was a flat piece of land, and the birth of this skill adds dungeons along with it, and requires you to talk to a NPC who says "Oh my, we've recently discovered some dungeons, and we need dungeoneers to explore these new lands", and then you start gaining some levels in the easier dungeons before going to the next, as some sort of survival ability skill. Put it this way, the skill would make more sense if it's call Daemonheiming instead of Dungeoneering. Then players can accept the skill as gaining levels to unlock floors and bosses in Daemonheim. Sacred Claying, Pest Controlling, Army Mobilising....

We're going in circles. The gem bag is crafting related, the coal bag is mining related, the weapons are combat related. But what rewards and ability are Dungeoneering related? Crafter: I craft jewelleries and armours. Fletcher: I fletch bows and arrows. Ranger/Mage/Warrior: We kick butt. Miner: I mine ores for.. Smither: ...to smith weapons and armour. Slayer: I slay strange and dangerous beasts for some unique monster drops. Dungeoneer: I....access more floors to open more doors. :rolleyes: There's nothing "dungeoneering" about getting coal bags and gravite weapons. Those could have been added to another monster or minigame. What the skill needs is dungeon-related abilities, or rewards that gives dungeoneer an edge in where they're found; dungeons. Read a few pages in the 80-90s and you'll see the same argument.

When I farm I get tons of items I can use to train other skills. For many players it is a *primary* source of materials for Herblore. Do I get that here? Nope. Nothing but a trinket or two I can buy once, sometime down the line. I also get food I can use for combat, combat which yields seeds for Farming. Is there any sort of integration like this with Dungeoneering? Nope. And no plans to do it, either. I think one point many are missing in this debate is that one of the reasons some of us have a problem with this being called a skill is that it takes the slot of a *real* skill. It used to be that Jagex put out a new skill every 6 to 12 months. This time they waited 27 months, and the skill they released really isn't. But now they'll say "new skill released in early 2010" and it could be 27 *more* months until we get a real one. Again, I do think this is a nice piece of content. But it's really a minigame wearing skill's clothing. And yes, it does matter. To reply to what people have said is a waste of time when I can just quote Qeltar and leave it at that. Just treat it as a character development skill that was initially added without any application, like Agility. :thumbup: Of course, we need to rant that it's not a skill until the applications are added. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Oh yes, the negative attack bonus with the wrong armour. I still think that Magic is icky to use even in Daemonheim though, the whole autocast and clicking the little icons in the spellbook is messy. Ranged is now the one with problems regarding damage. Melee weapons are tied to the strength bonus, while Magic now has damage bonus attached to higher end staves and wands. Yet ranged still follows strictly the rule where ammo provides the ranged strength bonus. Unless the new bow/crossbow has a ranged strength bonus,or there's a new ammo type, a new bow or crossbow won't be very useful. Which is why some people are questioning the usefulness of the chaotic crossbow. Are we paying 200k tokens just for a few extra ranged attack bonus?

From the Q&A you can tell that they're reluctant to do so, although I'm sure many people complimented them on the improved weapon class system, in particular range and melee. I won't push for that right now though, perhaps postponing it to somewhere in August, when everything has calmed down a ittle. Anyway, the re-balancing would mainly affect bronze-dragon items, since there's too little weapon variety in the upper regions (and most of them break the rule of speed class anyway).

It's a matter of packaging. If you fail to package the content in a way that lets people clearly see it as a minigame or a unique skill, it's confuses the players. a minigame/D&D that feels like a skill isn't that bad, looking at Fish Flinger. A SKILL, something that has a major role in this game, packaged wrongly is disastrous. Look at how vocal today's runescapers are compared to the past. Take agility and slayer for example, if today agility is is added to the game the same way as it was in the past where you train within the course, and even 'unlock' the agility armour, but has no application outside, you will be seeing the same rants as with dungeoneering until something is done. If slayer is added as it was in the past, but you don't get direct loot or XP, but instead a calculation screen showing you the number of beasts you killed as the based XP, modified by time taken, damage you received and then converting the XP to tokens, after which you trade for untradeable abyssal whips and rune boots, you'll see the same thing as well.

Not really, but it'll definitely encourage more players to quit on their teammates the moment they die too often and see their base XP decreasing.

Yep, the fact that the GE can be manipulated is the disease that should be cured. The situation of players exploiting it is the aftereffect, or the symptoms.

During the first week after Dungeoneering has been added, I had the impression that this game content is better off as a minigame, seeing that it's similar to minigames in many ways (token system, instanced areas, barrier between the training location and outside world), and offers nothing as a skill, such as abilities you unlock to be utilised in other dungeons as you level. But right now, I would think that it is a must to implement it as a skill. Not a minigame, for several reasons. First off, Jagex provided lores to explain some of the situations. I didn't know of this thing called 'instanced area' until I read it somewhere on tip.it forums. The lores in the dungeon explains that: Unless you get all technical about how the concept of 'instanced area' in Dungeoneering is similar to other minigames, this explanation makes much sense in explaining thr power of whatever is at the bottom of Daemonheim. I was pretty annoyed with the fact that Jagex spent so much time re-creating similar items with different graphics just to put in the dungeon, but, And the reason why you can't take daemonheim items out? If I were them, I'll just add another piece of lore in the journal saying something along the line those items crumbling to dust when we got out. The only issue left is the token system, which I can let it slip past. For what Dungeoneering lacks as a skill, the solution is simply to add them, so it's not a major issue unless Jagex is too stubborn to listen. Then again, the Q&A provided something vague but sufficient: The advantage of having this content as a skill rather as a minigame is that rewards can be more generously overpowering. If you agree that the best equipment shouldn't be tradeable just so that people can buy their way up, allocating powerful rewards (new prayer, highest level gear etc) to a skill would be much better than toning down rewards and giving it to a minigame just so that people don't feel 'forced' to play it. As a skill, you feel more...obliged to train and get some levels in it, compared to grinding through a minigame. Even if you feel forced to train the skill, it beats feeling forced to play a minigame, due to the difference in status. It's like firemaking and the handcannon. You don't see floods of people complaining that they need to train firemaking just so that their handcannon won't break too soon, instead it is a matter of "I should get my firemaking SKILL up so that I can get the most out of my handcannon". Except for a few puzzles and boss ability that you might need to spend time figuring out what to do (it is intended), what's so confusing about using keys the size of bricks to open doors? The only thing confusing in the whole concept is the matter of prestige. It is not the best solution, but still decent enough to take out the grinding part that every skill faces. Not fully understanding it will result in the loss of XP for the first few hours, and Jagex probably needs to better explain it in-game and on the KB. Other than that the majority of the actions in the dungeon is similar to the controls above ground. It's a skill where playing in groups reaps a little better XP, that's it. Soloing it isn't a problem since the combat level of the boss is adjusted. It wouldn't make sense to give more XP to a solo player than a group player, and implementing the skill without teaming capabilities would just invite more questions on the lack of it. Removing teamplay won't improve your solo XP in any way either, but will deny players who want to play in teams the right to do so.

It's not impossible, it just seems that way. But i know that if players want that rule, it's more possible to happen. Now if you bother, could you enlighteen me on the issues when trying to implent such a thing in the game? Why would it not be impossible? I'll give an example. Say, I create and lead a manipulation clan with account A. I encourage players to spam at the Grand Exchange, advertise ourselves in ways existing clans use, and buy up materials in bulk. With the rule implemented, someone reported my account A for manipulation, and this account of mine gets banned. But lo and behold, my main account isn't affected! My main account is the one buying up materials before I even mention the item on account A, and the first to dump on the market before anyone else, and best of all, it's not affiliated to the clan in anyway. Everything is done in private. You can ban account A, but the main account hasn't done anything wrong. Is the intent to manipulate prices clear-cut? Is it an offence to buy up 5k uncut rubies today (oh, I love collecting gems) and sell them one week later (oh, I don't collect them anymore)? IP banning would be out of the question when the whole detecting-who-has-the-intent-to-manipulate issue is in the grey zone.

Please tell if you want the rule or not. Let's stay away from how it can be implemented for now too! If you're talking purely about manipulating prices, the general consensus would obviously be yes, we want a rule for that. But knowing that it's difficult to enforce, I'm not surprised that there isn't such a rule yet.

It's not a matter of whether they should or not, but how the rule can be enforced if implemented.

Would you let a new guy continue an existing storyline?

Just wondering, are you saying that this concept of dungeon exploration should be not be implemented, or could have been implemented in a better way? As a skill, it's a failure. As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it. As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot. In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways. It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons. Well, which minigame are we talking about....? Barbarian Assault? How can the concept of raiding and PvE fail as either a minigame or a skill? :mellow:

I've never really like Pest Control, due to the lack of lore and the design of the void monsters. Hopefully the quests will provide some insight to which plane these monsters come from, and who's in charge of them, the mastermind or something.

Hmm, is the gravite 2h sword class 3 or class 4 speed?