Zepheras

Well, he's not going to. I've already invested quite a bit of time in discussing this today, and I'm sure not wasting a whole lot more of it slogging through that pomous, pedantic wall of gibberish. I do appreciate it, though, when someone make me look concise by comparison. ;) You should at least acknowledge the fact that some of the points you raised are fallacious though. Intrinsic VS extrinsic motivation and the prestige system. It's complicated, but good. The guy who designed it should get a raise.

This. Well, Qeltar should read it, since it's directed at him. To anyone saying that there would be more dungeons the size of Daemonheim in other areas to explore, that's unlikely. The whole skill is built upon the lore surrounding this one area. You'll probably see the remaining levels added to the game, quests with Dungeoneering level requirement, or expanded areas in other older dungeons requring Dungeoneering level X to enter. First two are almost 100%, the last is a little silly. Within Daemonheim, your skill of obtaining resources (with new design) and combat abilities with equipment made from these same resources is tested, but out of Daemonheim, people are using Bandos and Veracs and Sara brews, and I'm sure that their 'dungeoneering' skill is pretty good prior to the introduction of this skill. The name Dungeoneering also implies that no, you won't see a hundred level Armadyl theme tower either. Great way to limit future oppotunities along with a crappy abbreviated name. You won't find the level of integration other skills provide, where applicable. It's not a resouce gathering skill to supply a secondary skill. It's not a skill where you change the way you explore dungeons. It's not a skill that supplies the market with tradeable commodities, even if it's exhaustible ones. The only classification it can go to is Character Development skill, such as Agility. You opened so many doors, explored so many levels, killed so many monsters and you tell me that it's just to develop your avatar's character?

Yeah. Saying "I should be allowed to just complete the last floor" is like saying "There should be less obstacles on this agility course" The prestige system is part of the intended exp rate. Saying the system would give you faster exp if it worked different is just...well..its just really stupid. It makes no sense to say that. The same could be said for any skill. Summoning would give me faster exp if the pouches and second ingredients were stackable. But you can't deny the fact that the way rewards are handed out is uncreative, and worse of all, similar to almost every activity out there. (Try trading tokens for abyssal whips) Let's set aside the token cost, I'm sure those would be reduced by the time Dungeoneering 2 comes. Look at the scroll that permanently unlocks the prayer Augury. For Piety and Chivalry, you complete a short quest requiring 65 defence and 45 magic. For the magic (and ranged) counterpart, you have to get to level 77, and spend tokens to purchase them. I don't think the time spent for 77 Dungeoneering (a skill which in itself requires a decent level in other skills) is comparable to that for 65 defence, 45 magic plus a quest. Next, where did Thok and Marmaros get their hands on those reward items? From their Fremmenik home? Not linked to Dungeoneering. From Daemonhelm itself? I should be directly obtaining them myself when I venture through the dungeon.

It's just a game, some things cannot be THAT realistic. And some things are in place for a reason. If you don't have the bulk of XP at the end of the agility course but spread it out evenly, people are just going to repeat that one single obstacle over and over. Sure it's still repeating an action, but since they designed a COURSE they would want players to complete the whole thing.

It would be a nice minigame, yes. It's not a skill if the only reason anyone can come up with for why this is one and SC is not is that "Jagex sez so". Well sure, there are some things they can't fix, but there are others they can. I do think they could fix the behemoth problem pretty easily, for example. But this doesn't remove grinding at all. It makes it worse. Each floor is randomly generated, so the specifics of doing it change, but the general process is the same. On each floor you equip yourself, kill stuff, gather resources, equip yourself some more, solve a puzzle or two, find a boss and kill it. This is the same on floor 1 as it is on floor 30. And the difficulty and time requirement doesn't really increase all that much either. It takes me nearly as long to redo floor 1 as the deepest floor I can get to. Yet because of this "prestige" system, I am making, overall, 25% less XP than I would if I were just allowed to repeat the deeper floors. This means doing more floors to get XP, which is more grinding, not less. I understand the desire to have players do more than just repeat the bottom floor, but as usual, they took the easy way out. The right way is to design the game so players have an *intrinsic* reason to redo the upper floors. Instead, they just penalize you for not doing what they want, which is an *extrinsic* motivator. You repeat the highest (or close to) activity for every other skill. Is that an intrinsic reason (because you get the best XP), or an extrinsic reason (you get lower XP for doing anything below what you can)? It's hard to implement an intrinsic factor to redo the upper floors, unless there are rewards involved. The prestige system rewards XP, and I consider that an intrinsic motivator already, although removing the tokens system and somehow spread the rewards within the floors of the dungeon would be better. Without the system this extrinsic motivator would have been there anyway, aka you get penalised for not doing the best level. If the system is redesigned such that the XP from doing a fix number of floor regardless of the floor level is the same, that would be great. You can grind 10 rounds of floor 20, or do 3 rounds of floor 1, 7 rounds of floor 19, based on your preference. But if you're talking about removing the prestige system so that 10 rounds of floor 20 always rewards more XP than 10 rounds of floor 19, and so on, no thanks. I rather have this forced system to go through all the variety. The prestige system is designed in mind to reward X amount of XP in Y amount of time, and you're just assuming that without it, you would get more than X amount for the same time spent. It's not like that, if you get what I mean.

I'm interested in how you explain why the other two skills fail.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P? Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well. i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P. The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour? No, like i said, it was because enemies and bosses on F2P are much lower leveled than on P2P. /edit: and hence: easier killed --> easier completed --> faster xp Too bad I don't have membership to test it out, but I do leave tons of food on the ground because most of the monsters (except the boss) are pretty weak. But even with the raise in cap, I think a basic proportional reduction in XP rate for all F2P should be in place. There's no reason why F2P should have the same XP rate as a member, and every other skill has ways to improve members' training. Since Dungeoneering calculates XP, it makes sense to me that F2P gets say, 65% of what a member gets for the same level and prestige (maybe by blocking complexity 4-6). It's just being fair to members who pay, as well as among the F2Pers.

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P? Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well. i agree, that would have been more sensible. Although i still think they should have just included harder bosses and enemies with the increase of combat level, exactly like it is now on P2P. The reason for the 50% XP nerf was because members could complete the same floor on F2P in a shorter time and hence faster XP than playing on members' world. I'm wondering why it is so though, more preparation time required to make better food and armour?

Or 100+ level requirement doors in F2P? Somewhat related to the problem with the complexity system. I presume everyone plays on Complexity 6 no? So as a F2P, you're enjoying the same benefits of zero XP penalty as a member for choosing 6, but at the same time, you don't have the skills to clear obstacles like summoning, thieving and herblore. I'm not sure how to go about this. Remove members skill-related doors and puzzles on F2P dungeon, but remove complexity level 4, 5 and 6 since you shouldn't even have access to members? That would be a nerf on XP for all F2P players (not up to 50% though), and we can remove the 50% XP penalty for level 90+ as well.

So, if the majority of the design flaws are fixed, this skill would be pretty decent. No? Your comeback for Point 2 is still about the mismatch in token cost (and hence XP) and the dungeoneer level for the items. I'm personally not worried about flaws that can be fixed by just changing a little here and there, compared to complicated flaws in the game mechanics, like the complexity system, XP calculation involving bonus rooms and such. Point 10, I meant something similar to yours. Remove it. Point 12, it's a complex issue. for example, the switch puzzle depends on the number of players in the team. A 4-man team can still complete a 5-switch puzzle, but 3 is impossible. Same for the behemoth, where a duo team can't beat it (with two piles of food) if one accidentally logs off. If he guy who logs logs off returns to the party, you still have a chance. But if he's deserting you, I don't think the system can reload the dungeon just to remove the extra food pile, or adjust the enemy level. Why is it ncessary to do this at all? Am I forced to hunt polar kebbits when I get to level 90, or kill chickens half the time to level combat? Now now, here's the thing. What you consider as being forced is different from mine. You: You do floor 1 to 20, and since you can't do 21, you decide to repeat floor 20 multiple times until you unlock floor 21. Whoever wants to do lower floors (as a choice) can go ahead, no one's stopping them, but they get penalised in XP. That's not much of a choice, actually. Me: I do floor 1 to 20, and since I can't do 21, and there's a system to re-do all the lower levels while obtaining XP through prestige, why not? Whoever wants to repeat specific level (as a choice) can go ahead, no one's stopping them, but they get penalised in XP. The only reason to do the same level x times is for the XP, now there's no reason to do this. Seeing that XP would be the only reason to keep doing the best level over and over, Jagex remove this 'grinding' factor at a single level. And in the situation where you don't want your older content to be ignored the moment you pass the level for them, the prestige system is great as well. You are rewarded with XP along with a change of environment and monsters. If there's a system where you can hunt any species, or cut any tree without a XP penalty, who wouldn't want it?

1. Can be fixed. 2. Not an issue. Comparable to RC, Slayer. Might be even faster. 3. Can be fixed. 4. Can be fixed, and is being fixed. 5. True, can't get a full fractite most of the time in F2P. Can it be fixed? 6. A little too harsh, from what I saw the tipit general F2P thread. It's about a 50% loss of floor and prestige XP if you don't have any room bonus. 7.I find it confusing, but necessary. What's a better way to encourage players to replay every level instead of only the last level? 8. It synchronises the timing for a team to enter the next floor at the same time. If I off it and you don't, I'll be at the next floor picking the resources first. 9. Guide mode is pretty useless for its penalty as well. Need to be fixed, or just off it. 10. Who bothers playing on lower complexity? 11. This is related to 7. You're going to replay some levels anyway. Might as well have a system to replay lower levels for some benefits, than have everyone utilising only the best levels. I like revisiting the bosses on the ice level without fear that I must play the best level for the best XP. 12. It's the same with many multiplayer games. Doubt it can be fixed. 13. Agree. Everyone binds a weapon for starters. You can't bind a good piece of armour. 14. The integration of other skills into this skill is great. The integration of this skill into other skills (unless you consider the 'rewards' as integration), is....there none. 15. I don't get this.

I don't care about gravite. Anything that degrades after use for some time is simply not worth it. That's a pretty bad assumption. Berserker shields and battle robes are decent for the cheap token recharge cost. It's all a matter of whether the recharge cost is worth it, much like barrows.

The recharge cost for gravite weapons can be up to 1mil gold for 10 hours. I don't think the average level 45+ F2Per can handle that.

Posted my version of it. By the way strilmus, I replied to a post of yours on that thread that was moved to Rants. <_<

The point of having goods out of a skill, where applicable, is to let the skill play a role in the game. I'm a fletcher, and you're a ranger. Even though I may be making a loss training, I'm still providing goods in the form of arrows and bolts and bows. If today all the shops that sell commodities were to close, you won't have a shortage of them, because miners, runecrafters, fishermen, slayers and fletchers will be there to supply the goods. Agility is a character development skill, but you gain abilities to be used in other parts of the world. Thieving too, except for the supply of Pharoah's staff, gems, and whatever you pickpocketed. These are alright not to provide physical goods to the game. Firemaking...not the best skill in the game. The only skill you should compare Dungeoneering with is Slayer. Slayer: You go to specific areas to train, since the monsters live in specific areas. Dungeoneer: You go to specific and instanced area to train. There's lore explaining the instanced area and why you don't see anyone else in the same level. I'll take that for a reason. Slayer: Some equipment are tradeable, some aren't. No big deal. Dungeoneer: A whole list of new items found in the dungeon, all untradeable and not usable above ground. But there's lore about how they items are banned because they're contaminated with dark magic, I'll take that for a reason. Slayer: Your rewards are slayer specific loot, some of which can be linked to the monster. Abyssal whips and abyssal demons, Granite maul and gargoyles. You supply the market with these loot as a Slayer. You play a role in the community. The points system of Slayer supports the skill itself by providing slayer ammo and convenience. Not a very creative method, but it doesn't impact the skill to the extent of making it like a minigame. Dungeoneer: Combat is involved, but this time round you have nothing to supply the market. You don't get loot off secret chests and monsters. You don't even gain anything to help your Dungeoneering career. Dungeoneers don't have a role to fulfil in the game, unless you're telling me that this is a character development skill unlocking just abilties. You don't even unlock abilities that serve you outside of the dungeon. That being said, the OP is just contradicting herself with statements like "I'm not comparing" when clearly she is. She's basically trying to say that Dungeoneering's great as a minigame, but not as a skill. I don't fully agree with her, for the reasons above.

List them for me. I'm sure half of your "long list" is your unreasonable arguments that you cannot defend. ^ This Also, To Qeltar, i made a nice argument on why this IS a skill not a mini game, since you seem to be strongly against calling this a skill can you read that it if you get the chance Dont worry, he will only respond with anecdotal exaggerations. I can't find Ring_world's argument. Which page is it on?

You have rewards. You are now able to do higher floors. Higher floors get you better exp and better exp means faster progress towards items that you can obtain and use. And we can just assume that the mismatch between the reward level and token cost, along with the little bugs and glitches here and there would eventually be be fixed. After which I think it's pretty enjoyable if we can just ignore the issue of whether this is a skill or minigame and how the rewards system makes it even more of a minigame than a skill. Kudos to Jagex though, for their attempt to create some lore on the instanced scenario and zero interaction of items in and out of the dungeon. I will continue to rant and rant about the rewards system, because honestly, there's no way any lore can be used to explain it. You trade tokens for rewards instead of getting them off monsters and chests. You trade for all kinds of untradeable rewards, and have nothing to contribute to the market after utilising all the skills in the game. I'd like to see where the first level 120 player can trade his 10.7mil tokens for. But the best part being, you do a pretty easy quest for chivalry and piety, but for the range and magic equivalent you work your [wagon] off in a dungeon for hours?

Short answer, no. Long answer, no, it's been stated on the RSOF that they have no plans to do so.

As long as Jagex remains as a pacifier and refuses to dish out proper temporary bans on those foul mouthed kiddos, I don't see how spliting or integrating the communities together would change anything.

4 years after the release of Construction and there are only about 6000 people who are even halfway to 99. (and that skill is fast) It is clear to me that construction is also poorly accepted and is a fail skill. Or that it is an expensive skill and people would prefer to spend their money on other things? Point being, Qeltar's post (the last line) assumes too much.

The game would reset? Everyone dies, and spawns at Lumbridge as a new player.

Is that the only bonus room door? Because you should be getting AT THE VERY LEAST 4% bonus if you at least explored all the other rooms. Pretty hard to tell since we don't know how the dungeons are randomly generated. Personally I had occasions of one room that's impossible to clear, for which I'll get I think....+8% instead of the full +13%. Maybe that one bonus room leads to more bonus rooms?

I forgot to mention that in that picture, it was one door I wasn't able to open it had a 105 craft requirement on a f2p server; not even possible and I got about 50% exp reduction for it. Hmm, that's bad. I wish that all the members element gets removed on F2P as well. If it's say, 85 crafting and I don't have it, that's penalising me for my lack of training. But 103 strength, thieving.....

Isn't that evidence to how slow the skill levels? Out of interest, one week after the release of Summoning, Hunter, Construction, Farming and Slayer what were the number of people with greater than 100k XP? If they were all greater than 7000 then I could accept your theory as valid. I thought that you were a family guy over 30, and you're using poor arguments like this? Where's the Qeltar of old that developed a following with well thought out treatise of various Runescape knowledge. It can be evidence for the supposed poor popularity if you look at the 7000, or slow XP if you look at the 100k. But like I mentioned, not everyone has all-rounded decently high skill levels to get the most out of each floor. @greenmelf, I'm ok with bonus rooms affecting the base prestige/room XP. Gets people to train up their skills, and stop people from finding the easy way out to rush through every floor for fast XP. Imagine that presitge and floor XP isn't affected by bonus rooms, and you can be assured of 'Fast Dung XP' clans forming to grind XP. If you can complete floor A + B in the time I complete floor B, for a mere loss of 13% bonus per level with no effect on floor and prestige XP, would you do that?

The dungeoneer bosses' difficulty are designed with respect to the gear available in the dungeon, and the player limit. I would say that Corp is pretty weak for the gear and number of players it should at least overpower. Although I'm F2P right now and soloing, bosses that requires attention and quick reflexes are still pretty exciting and challenging to me. Almost died to the Riftsplitter today.