qeltar

This is untrue. It's just a self-delusion that some merchants tell themselves so they can stick their heads in the sand and ignore some of the legitimate reasons why merchants are disliked. Sure, some of it is due to jealousy, but there are many other reasons why merchanting is looked down upon: 1. The attitude of many merchants (a notable example being in this thread) that wealth is all that matters and that it is somehow worthy of respect in and of itself. 2. A lack of moral integrity on the part of many merchants, who openly admit that they take advantage of others and treat them unfairly. 3. A perception that merchants raise or lower prices for others (which is partially true and partially untrue). 4. The fact that merchanting allows people to make money without having "paid their dues" in terms of training, as is necessary in skilling, PKing and other methods. It is felt by many that this cheapens the game. I can't? Watch me. I hereby deny the achievement of having a lot of money. There, that was easy. You are projecting what you consider important onto others. Just because you think having pixel money is essential, it doesn't mean others do. I know many, many people who have played the game for ages and do not have a lot of money, and it's not because they couldn't earn it, it's because they recognize that wealth is not the point of the game. I know people who could have had billions if they wanted to, because they've been playing for a long time. It just wasn't important to them. Speaking for myself, just in the last few weeks I left about 100 million on the table by not selling my Sara GS when its price ran up to crazy levels. Why? Because I like it, and I don't really need more money. It's not the point of the game for me. I'm not trying to impress anyone. "We, we, we". Again, you don't speak for everyone. YOU may raise levels to get money but that's not why many others do it. Why do people get 99 in Herblore or Agility or Crafting? It's not for the money, I assure you. Why do people get 4,000 Chompy kills or max out on CW tickets? It's not for money. Etc. Wrong. Not the same goals at all. For most people, money is a means to an end. They want money to buy something they like and to use it. Many merchants have things backwards -- they want money for its own sake, so they can show off, because they think this makes them "important". Sorry to tell you, but it really doesn't, except in the eyes of other insecure, usually rather young people who haven't figured out much in life yet.

Thanks for the kind words, everyone. Hope you all have fun ranging there... as for me, I'm kind of tired of the place now! :)

Yes, yes, and not long at all. A minute or 2 at most. And my prayer is normally out halfway through karil, so I don't see how going 0 doses is possible for me. No, I meant how long does a whole trip take. Meaning.. the time from when you leave the bank, go to the Barrows, do all the brothers, open the chest, teleport back to your house, recharge prayer, and bank so you are ready to go on the next trip. Try timing a couple of runs and tell me how long it takes and I can make suggestions for you.

Errdoth: No, I haven't. It's not necessary to personally visit a place in order to learn what it is like. You should look into the work of Temple Grandin. She's made a big difference in slaughter methods, and for a reason. It's a copout because it doesn't take into account how many animals are killed, or how they are treated before and during slaughter. And, to repeat yet again, meat-eaters cause not only the deaths of the animals they eat, but also far MORE of the "collateral damage" kills due to raising grain and other feed. So that entire argument is bogus. Because we have intelligence and moral capacity. Because we are capable of being better. Bear in mind that most other animals also engage in brutal assault, murder, rape, incest and more. Are these considered tolerable in humans because we're "just another animal"?

These are, I believe, reasonable predictions. The main difference that the GE is going to make is, as I said earlier, to broaden the market. This will make it much easier for people to buy things that before were rarely sold because it was too difficult to find them. OTOH, it again depends on how they implement things. If you have to do searches to find items to buy, then people are still going to mostly search for "shark" and "lobster" and not "strawberry basket" (which by the way are an EXCELLENT food for certain applications, very underrated.)

This is rather blatant bug abuse, and it would be wise of people to stop admitting doing it on a public forum.

Davis's claims are outliers completely unsupported by any real science or even a reasonably large constituency. Here is just one rebuttal. Note also that Davis's research is based on instituting a ruminant-pasture model.. that is, grazing. Most cattle and other animals today do not graze, they are fed grain. That's the bulk of the grain that is supposedly causing all the other animals to die -- cattle eat a lot more than humans do. Finally, in that article it claims that his theoretical idea would result in 300 million fewer animal deaths compared to straight veganism. But how many animals are slaughtered each year for food? Over 10 billion. Not really comparable. I never said anything about intention, actually. It's a matter of number and degrees. It's a copout to just say "well something dies in both cases so it doesn't matter how many are killed or under what circumstances". You apparently haven't seen much of what goes on in factory farms or slaughterhouses. P.S. I am not a proponent of veganism.

Well, hunting is really done for both. I am not a fan of it myself, but I agree that it is hypocritical to complain about hunting unless one is, at the very least, mostly vegetarian. I do think there are more and less humane ways of hunting. In particular, I believe bow hunting is unnecessarily cruel. BTW the "more animals are killed growing vegetables" thing is a myth. The numbers are not even close to comparable, and what do you think most grain is used for? Right, feeding cattle. There are shades of gray here, and even small efforts can have an impact. P.S. We have tons of deer around my place, see them prancing around every morning. ;)

Actually, this is VERY good money if you have the skills/equipment to do it well... In particular, a house with an altar and portal to Canifis. Wear lightness gear and a blessed sickle, and put a stack of home teletabs in your inventory. Go to Canifis, run over to the swamp. Cast-bloom and pick until full, then click a tab. Recharge prayer, return to Canifis, bank and repeat. Use super energy pots when necessary. Been a while since I tried but IIRC it is actually well over 500k an hour, believe it or not....

You are either lying here, or you don't understand what price manipulation is. (Wouldn't be a big shock since you don't seem to know anything else about economics either.) Here's what you wrote: That's manipulation/collusion. (An excellent example of why people hate merchants, too.) ~q

You're probably posting these threads to manipulate the market, actually, given that you've already admitted price manipulating in the past, and have said you'll do it in the future. You haven't been responding to anyone's arguments. All you've been doing is insulting people and bragging about how many paper hats you own. That doesn't prove you have any knowledge. It could prove that you know how to scam, or account hack, or buy RS gold with real world money -- or just how to Photoshop a screenshot. All that you are really proving here, with every post, is that you have some major real world insecurities that you need to cover up with by getting strangers on an online game to fawn over you because of your "wealth". It's really not anything that leads me or most other rational people to feelings of jealousy -- pity would be closer to the truth. ~q

You said I could never afford a rare and I said you had no way of knowing that because I never said what I do or don't have. Now you claim that I am a "liar" if I don't... prove you don't know what I have. How exactly am I supposed to do THAT? :lol: For all anyone knows, you could have gotten them by a friend giving them to you, or by hacking other peoples' accounts. Having a bunch of paper hats says nothing about someone's knowledge level. (Being unable to spell the word "sense" says a lot more.) Money is a means to an end..in the case of a game, having fun. When accumulating more and more of it becomes the goal -- to amounts far beyond what could actually be used for playing -- then something is seriously wrong. Real-world accomplishments are far more important than pixillated imaginary paper hats. ~q

It would seem to be rather difficult for you to prove that I am "lying" when you can't even accurately recall what I said. As I said, I have far more relevant credentials than owning silly paper hats in an online game. But as I also said, it's irrelevant. You seem to have a hangup about being oh-so-impressed with your own imaginary wealth, but what really matters is making intelligent arguments, and you've fallen rather short in that respect.

I have never once said I owned a rare. Reading comprehension is your friend. I don't need rares to establish my credentials to discuss this subject. I have real world credentials (no, you don't want to know what they are) and my arguments stand on their own merits. Now, back to the subject. If you think you can use this system to manipulate the market, my guess is that you will be in for a rather rude awakening. It will be VERY easy for Jagex to check for these things and take appropriate action against abusers. If you're as smart as you seem to think you are, you'd stop talking about it on an open forum.

Nope, wrong. What I said about merchants early in the thread was the following: I stand by that (and many people agree with it). You then started responding to that comment and similar ones with insults. Not 10 minutes after I posted, we got this gem: Apparently you weren't done, though. Two hours or so later the bragging started: As I said.. if you brag, expect negative reactions to it. Especially when it's something as silly as bragging over money in a game. It is? That's news to me. I don't consider it a "big accomplishment" in any way. There are people who have billions worth of rares simply because they started playing the game early on, whereas others started later. Is finding out about a game three years before someone else a "big accomplishment"? You've admitted that you make money by taking advantage of people. You think any honest person considers that a "big accomplishment"? How is it any more of an accomplishment than scamming or buying billions using real money? Not much in, my eyes. I know people who have 99 skills that they got completely self-sufficiently. I mean.. didn't buy any raw materials. These are people who got 99 crafting getting their own seaweed and sand and making glass and then blowing it. If anything is an "accomplishment" in an online game, that's certainly it far more than having a bunch of paper hats and an overinflated ego. Yes, you do. And other people have every right to not like it. Free hint: people don't like braggarts. Because I think the greed and obssession over them is one of the worst aspects of this game -- and you could easily be the posterboy for the entire problem.

Doesn't work that way. Everyone will be watching what happens. As soon as it is clear that someone is buying up all of something, guess what happens? The next ones will be listed for 6, or 7 or 10 million. You're going to have to buy those too. And keep buying as the price goes up. Only the GE means that EVERYONE has access to an easy way of selling. So you will have to buy far more than would be necessary now. The GE means a broader market and that is much harder to manipulate than a thin market. In effect, the GE is going to make the sort of abuses you describe more difficult, not less. You can't buy them all, because there are too many around, and any attempt to corner the market causes prices to dramatically increase, putting you at a huge risk of loss. Real-world examples already given. You don't understand a fundamental point, which is that thin markets are easier to abuse than broad ones. The GE is going to greatly broaden and "open up" the market (in terms of visibility), making it far more difficult to pull those sorts of stunts.

ego, let me just see if I understand you correctly. Are you actually trying to suggest that you have more credentials to discuss Runescape economics than I do because you have a bunch of silly hats and I do not? Just wondering. :?:

There's virtually nothing in the game that is important enough or in short enough supply that it can be monopolized to any meaningful extent. And anyone who tries to do so will be taking very large risks. Think about all the people who lose money by sinking millions into exploits that Jagex later closes. Remember all the people buying maple longs to sell to stores that one day changed? The price elasticity of demand of most things in Runescape is relatively high. If you or someone else tries to buy up all of something like treasure trail items, you will very soon find yourself sitting on a pile of items nobody wants, and you will lose money to get rid of them.

If anyone is interested in reading some real-world history, a classic example of an attempt to corner a market occurred when the Hunt Brothers attempted to corner silver in the late 1970s. It sounds a lot easier to do than it is. ~q

They can, and they are. They aren't the same but there are many similarities, especially with respect to the economy. I believe I already did that. You are the one who is frothing at the mouth here, not me. If you feel that rares are the "backbone of the economy" then try to make a convincing argument to that effect. Once again, you don't know what I do or do not have or what I can or cannot afford, and it has no relevance to the discussion either way. (Do I need to own a baseball team to discuss what I think my favorite team should do? Etc.) ~q

Uh huh. Of course you have. :roll: Showing off and comparing wealth is the sort of things people like you like to do, not me. So think what you want. It doesn't matter to me whether you think I am rich or poor, to be honest -- certainly not enough to be bothered meeting someone like you in the game in person. If you want to know why people hate merchants, look in a mirror. Because you are exactly the sort of merchant that gives all merchants a bad name -- even the ones that don't deserve it. It's about your attitude, not jealousy, and not your Burger King hats. ~q

I made the post to which you are replying 15 pages and 11 days ago. Is there any constructive purpose to dredging this silly, off-topic issue back up again -- even as you complain elsewhere about this thread having "turned into a flamewar"? :wall: Since I'm not a braggart like yourself, I never talk about what I own or what I could buy. And I refuse to answer when people ask me. Therefore, you have absolutely no way of knowing what I could or could not afford to buy. Right? It fits well in the pattern of the greed-obsessed merchant, however, that you immediately attempt to place yourself as being somehow superior because you assume I couldn't afford to buy a silly hat. It is this exact attitude that causes overzealous merchants and other insecure ego-driven twits to be despised. ~q Now that requires a talent, using a lot of big words in one sentance yet the overall meaning is some eluding insult. Actauly, your type is one of the most common, however, in your case only difference being the ability to use some of the less commonly used wordds to create a rather pathetic attempt at an insult. Im calling your bluff, lets see some proof behind your claims of me not knowing? Okay, fine. You are saying I don't have enough money to own a Burger King hat. Tell me how you know this, since you've never met me in game or seen my bank and I do not discuss what I own on the forums? Geez.

They aren't completely random though. It depends on what you are doing. I have spells where I can go for many hours without getting one.

Threads like this amuse me.. they are all so reminiscent of the proverbial blind men and an elephant. The reality is that it is absolutely impossible to predict what impact the GE will have, because the impact depends entirely on how it is implemented. Even small changes in operation will make a huge difference in how, when and even if it is used. A few specific comments.... When you deliberately mention your Burger King hats in your sig and then rub other people's faces in them -- as you did in the prior thread -- then people respond. You have the power to avoid these situations: stop showing off. False. Because what you are forgetting is that economies have self-correcting mechanisms, including that of RuneScape. As prices drop, sellers become less motivated to sell, and buyers become more motivated to buy. More buyers enter the market, more sellers leave, and a new equilibrium is reached. It won't be the same equilibrium (at the same price as before) but it WILL be an equilibrium. There will be no collapse. :lol: Saying that rares are the "backbone of the RS economy" is like saying that 50-foot yachts or gold toilets are the backbone of the real world economy. It's beyond silly. Rares only matter that much to the people who are obssessed with them. To everyone else, they are a non-issue. This is called cornering a market. It can be done, but it is very difficult to do. And very risky. If you attempt to corner a market and succeed, you can make a fortune. But if you attempt and you fail, you lose your shirt. The first thing is that you must have enough liquidity to buy up nearly all of a particular item being sold. I doubt that even 10 wealthy players in the game can do that. If you start buying stuff and can't keep it up, guess what happens? The whole thing unravels and you go broke. Second, it usually has to be an item with intrinsic worth and demand. Rares have no intrinsic worth -- they are pure luxury goods, showoff items. If the prices go too high, many buyers will just shrug and buy something else. It's not like anyone NEEDS these things. Third, the main area where RS differs from the real economy is that Jagex has control over it. They are not going to allow the sort of scenario envisioned here to take place. In particular, price manipulation and collusion (which is what is described here) is illegal in the marketplace forums, so I am sure it will be deemed illegal here too. And it would be VERY easy to check for. What you are saying is that rich people are important, not that rares are. I own items and cash worth more than 10 santa hats, but I don't have any less ability to do what you said than someone who has the rares. Nothing's a "necessity" but some items are clearly more important than others. Rares have absolutely no function in the game. Doesn't really follow. Most people who are saving for rares will continue to save for them, and the prices will go up or down depending on whether more buyers or sellers come into the market. My inclination is to believe that prices on most goods will initially go down, not up.

Roberthree, I assume you are doing one chest per trip? Do you have access to the Canifis and an altar in your house? Otherwise, how do you recharge prayer and get to the Barrows? How long total does it take you to do a trip, from when you start out from the bank until you do the trip, bank, reload supplies and are ready to head out from the bank for a second trip?