jettrider

Sailing is coming. It's a funorb game http://forum-fo.funorb.com/[Please Use QuickFind Code]?15,16,445,9398 Speculation gets you nowhere, the ideas may be done because people support them, but they won't be good content.

I agree...solo merchants cannot change the price direction of an item, and especially not "force the item to go up;" they can only slightly slow down the change in the price. In other words, they stabilize the market from constant crashes and [bleep]es. Team merchanting does have the power to affect prices in the short term, but they also have no effect on the long-term price. Also, group price manipulation is against rule 2, but there is no distinct place to draw a line as to how to distinguish price manipulation from normal buying and selling. I'm tired of seeing claims of "merchants drive price of every up" and "merchants lowered the price of this item so much" as these are biased, non-backed claims. I think the distinction between the groups has muddled. Few people who actively play RuneScape do nothing but merchant. I'd now define large team Bandos as skilling, because it requires absolutely no concentration, high stats, or intelligence. Bosses are easy, and the loot they drop is low in price according to that. Meanwhile, since the removal of bots, the price of raw materials has stayed the same, meaning the value of gold is NOT rising: all drops are simply falling. You'll also find that few skills are really profitable. Hunter and runecraft are still the best, though crowded hunting grounds and high essence prices hurt these skills. Certain farming strategies are profitable but annoying; fishing and mining are very small money earners. I don't think you can really draw a triangle here - a melting pot may be more appropriate.

Here are some pictures of the three debatable attack styles for reference:

I think 4 game updates in 5 "update weeks" is decent. Usually we get 1-2 updates, an upgrade, and a bunch of website filler per month.

I'm going to have to slightly disagree on some of these. The attack that hits up to 54 is melee. Magic attack maxes in the low 40s with prayer on. Not *all* of his attacks are magic-based. I could've sworn that it was longer than 60 seconds. I may be wrong though (and I probably am). Range isn't entirely useless. In non-lootshare mass killings, range is a surefire way to get kills (but only with ruby bolt specials). There is also a pretty good hybrid method that incorporates both melee and range. It's much smarter than having a team full of meleers with a few rangers; if range is faster, why can't everyone range until low health? And if meleeing is faster/about the same, why have rangers at all? I believe those drop rates are a bit high. The beast takes quite a long time to kill and overestimating is easy. I believe the drop rates to be somewhere in these ranges: Spirit shields: 1 in 75 Holy Elixir: 1 in 150-250 Sigils: 1 in 200-350 Of course, this is speculation, but I believe that the sigils have the same drop rates. Since there still aren't many sigil drops of any type, it's easy to say that some are rarer than others.

Yeah, duoing isn't really worth the time spent doing it. In the time it would take to get one drop, you could get half a dozen or more with a team. Also, wait to rip the guide off TSG forums.

I did see that the other day, and I believe it was an early GE update that didn't include the prices of many items. The early update was probably to make elixirs and sigil-shields tradable on the Exchange. I don't think there was anything more to it.

Common merch chats are easy ways to get more buying power on an already-bought out item, then ditch the new buyers on sell date. It's not organized, but it IS controlled.

Idiot. "Profit of it"? The people that profit from it are always a small minority, there are way more people that lose money from it. Buy armour low and sell high? That means some other people have to sell low and buy high. Patience has nothing to do with it, there will always be more people losing cash to this then people making cash from it. You only lose money if you fail to care about the trends in your item. Otherwise you can save money by simply waiting to buy your item.

The market instability is only temporary, the GE is NOT restricting godswords anymore, and manipulators do NOT affect longterm price average. The player must at least be able to read graphs and analyze the trend of the item in question. If they fail to do this, then yes, they are at risk of losing money. But an average player can get a great deal by watching the item's trend and buying when low. A lot of factors go into the current state of the market. For one, there's the usual end-of-summer market crash and subsequent boom. Then there's the loosening of godsword prices. Next you have about 2 topics about the same issue being created every day, on every forum and the influence that they have on consumer's thought.

Clues are random, I really don't believe that anything but drop wheels and clue level determine the reward.

Thats wrong because the granite prices have been steadily going up the 2 weeks before this update so it seems to me to be Jagex raising the prices, so people didn't see the update and try to buy all the big chunks for a small amount of cash and then wait until after peak times and make a huge profit. How does that disagree with the first quote at all? You explained why the price was artificially raised, while the first quote explains it in a different way then states that 500g granite will go down.

I'm a bit confused. Which conclusion do you disagree with? I'm going to assume that it's the one that hoarding does not affect the long-term average. I'll give a simple example of dark bows. They were around 1.2m at the time, and a merchant clan decided to pick them up. Within 2 days they didn't buy at max, and they rose to 1.5m. Then they tanked all the way down to 900k, where they went back up to 1.2m. The average price does not change, just the timing of the rises and falls is affected by merchanting. Short term merchanting is generally: 1) A little under mid and a little over mid for stable items; 2) A little over min and a little under mid for falling items; 3) A little over mid and a little under max for rising items. In each of these cases, the item is still transferred for the average price. However, if a lot of people buy at min and sell just under mid the fall will be slower than people buying and selling at min. Investing is simply "riding the wave." It makes the ups and downs slightly more dramatic, but the average stays the same. That example did not change my opinion. There is too much gray area, undefined rule breaks and interpretations. Even rule 1, the most interpretive rule, is governed by specific do's and don'ts. First you have to distinguish what exactly is against the rules. Is it conspiring with other players to raise or lower prices? Or is it no merchanting at all? I think you mean the first, so I'll raise a question. Couldn't the above example be interpreted as friends discussing what items are good to merchant? What is the line between giving advice on merchanting and hoarding as a group? Are 3 people who match buy and sell prices in order to not overcut/undercut each other considered hoarders? Merchanting is simply too massive of a topic to set judgment limits on. The only way to disallow it is to configure the game to not allow it. Imagine if all items had only the market price and we had no player to player trade at all. That's one of the only alternatives if this doesn't go down to judgment. Think what you are asking Jagex employees to do. First, hundreds of thousands of offers are put in for these "high profile items" every day. What are the parameters for allowing a flag to be raised? Then they have to trawl through 6 minutes worth of chat and offer making, which can get really tedious based on which clan chat the player was in. Also, the GE is always extremely busy and chat adds up quick there for *most* cases. Then, when flagged reports come under an employee's eye, they must make a judgment call based on that. Blackmarks and trading bans are serious. Many innocent players will be given a punishment debatably worse than a mute. So I hold the same opinion, that the gray area is too much for a new rule or changes to the item scamming rule.

Source: http://news.runescape.com/newsitem.ws?id=1370 Not really. Unless you can predict the future and know the defination of impressiveness. How do Jagex define impressiveness, is still unknown to us. Don't jump to conculsion so fast. I don't think we have to predict the future to do some simple guesswork. We know that you WILL get rewards based on kills. No matter how impressiveness is judged, RWT can generate it -- including wearing more expensive gear.

Yea, I'd rather have macroers back and the game shut down in less than a year! Oh wait... #-o I thought everyone got over that same argument. But I also have to disagree with you. The trade system has been simplified because you don't have to worry about being ripped off. You can still buy from players (only now you know the real price), but you can also buy from the GE.

I've read, and reread your reply (first paragraph) and still don't get most of it #-o Anyway, I've been checking some price graphs, and you might be right about the school kids. The prices did initially drop because of kids selling their gear. However, this really doesn't account to all the "manipulated" stuff. There's other stuff, that has been going, where there's no link with kids starting school. However, the price rise is still IMO a combined effect of smart people buying when it's low, and rumors spreading. (what I've explained before). Then the second paragraph. If I get you right, you say Acidy cc is always behind the real hoarders? You are implying people are secretely hoarding an item that's going down/is low in value, and then spread the rumor to buy it out, right? Well, in some cases that might be true. In other cases however, I really dont see how they can possible make profit. I've seen items being "advertised", that were still going down/ were on their lowest, so I cant see how any secret hoarder can make profits by selling it at that time. (Of course, if they manage to create interest in the item, they are the first one to have them, probably for min price, so they make more than the others, but still. What I mean is: sometimes the item didnt really work and crashes already after a day, so I don't see how these secret hoarders can possible make a huge profit there). You basically answered your first question with your first paragraph. Schoolgoers sold all their stuff thinking that it'll drop and they want to save their cash value. This creates the old waterfall effect and more people buy into this theory. The value of gold remained unchanged as raw materials and rares stayed flat, but everything else tanked. A few weeks into school the market recorrected, prices began to go back up. A point I'd like to make is that no kind of merchant can alter the long-term average line. Hoarding will hit a new high and drop to a new low, then return to its pre-hoard value. Investing into items with curvy lines keeps the average flat. Short-term merchanting of volatile items only slows the progress of the average line slightly. Acidy's clan chat basically died because of unlimited access and huge popularity. Many other clan chats are now used. However, for this to work properly, a single decision on item must be made and no backstabbing may occur. This is why these hoarding groups must be reputable for them to profit - - unlike Acidy's clan chat, half full of manipulators and half full of people asking stupid questions and price checks. NO! This would give rise to more pointless and careless black marks and bannings being delivered to innocent players. Player1 to Player2: Should I buy a bgs now? Player2: Yeah, they'll probably rise soon How is that any different from: Player2: Dark bows will go up soon, now's a good time to buy Player2: They buy for about 1025k The first example is honest discussion between two friends about when to buy an item. The second could be a way to alert member of a hoarding clan chat when to buy or sell the item. The only possible fix is to limit the amount of items you can buy at a time to 1 for godswords, 2-5 for common items. However, this would be on par with removing direct trading. The only reason that the Grand Exchange works as an alternative to free trade is that you can choose the price to buy for, and therefore use it to make a profit. This is one of the key cornerstones of RS, that people can choose to make their money as a trader rather than a monsterkiller or skiller.

I think you're forgetting that you lose 7 potions when you convert a full inventory from 3 dose to 4 dose. Your profit would be only the extra cost between 3 and 4 dose after subtracting the price per dose, plus the vial. It gives no exp and most GE worlds are laggy.

The people who lose out are the miners like me who had 10.8k granite banked, waiting for the usual upwards price swing...

You really, really, can blame all the price changes on kids going to school. It would be a really, really big coincidence, that all these items are going up, right after they crashed in price because of bank sales. Acidy's clan chat is not where price manipulation occurs. Acidy's cc is for people who are in separate hoarding groups to tell everyone that their chosen item is going up while they are selling the item in the GE. Then the dumping. Of course, even when the dump is unsynchronized, everyone can dump their items. Why? Because people who read the basic merch guides see the item is going up and try to buy into it, meaning everyone can sell theirs and the people who lose are the ones who believe the merch guides. The panicy "noobs" are the ones who dump early and that's why they hang out in acidy's cc because they can't stay in any real hoarding groups.

End of summer market crash. Everyone sells their whole bank on the GE. You could take this as the lowering in value of cash, but raw materials are staying roughly the same. So in other words, it's harder to make cash and easier to buy armor, but skills become harder to buy.

Well looking at it on a broad scale, I can say a couple possible real life reasons. -You can say that a lot of college students play RuneScape and many of them probably have limited action on campus -A lot of people want to do their first homework assignments to start with a good grade \ and hang out with friends they haven't seen. It's only natural. Now on to some RS reasons. -The market is crashing right now. The end of summer waterfall effect is wreaking havok on the GE. People put their stuff in at min in order to not lose money, and have nothing to do on RS since everything is sold. -There are no good updates coming out. The quest and minigame took an hour tops if you had the firemaking level. We now have dancing penguins and a circus. Forgive people if they fail to care about those relative to PvP worlds... -Clan Wars has been delayed so long that many people forgot about the pictures and just don't care much. -RuneScape has never been so "boring." People played all day every day all summer and got bored; now they have something new to spend time on. Plus a lot of other games are coming out this fall and winter season for consoles. It'll pick up a little bit as the year goes on I think.

I had a topic on another site about this. I'll repost the first post here. Everyone loves an update. It's exciting to see new content on the front page and know there's something new to do. I am a level 138 character who has all quests done and has played every minigame seriously. For the purposes of this most, I will be looking at this news list first and second pages and be ignoring graphical/polls/misc. updates that don't really affect the game itself. Please note that I'm not complaining about the frequency of updates or the intended audience of them. (This is where you might want to scroll down to the discussion point if you're short on time.) The Runecrafting Guild: This was a very exciting update primed by Behind the Scenes. The minigame is called fun by some and boring by others, but the fact remains that at max speed and token gaining, obtaining and using tabs is 4.5k exp/hour slower than using a Graahk to Runecraft. As you have to pay to repair pouches, it is only useful if you're playing the minigame. Tabs for slayer tasks? They're not useful enough to justify the time spent getting them. The omni talisman? A quick one-time RC boost that is of minimal use. The ability to buy pouches and the astral tabs for switching magics are the only redeeming features of the guild and minigame, which suffer from a terrible quitting-game system leaving teams outnumbered. Meeting History: A sequel is much better than starting a new storyline, but this is a short quest that has no good reward in sight. Afterwards you can hunt for some more useless junk. I'd like to mention quests at this point. Too often a new storyline is started or extended rather than finishing a series. This means we have too much yet too little variety at once. Also, quests give tend to give one-time exp bonuses without giving a long-term benefit as they should. You'll read about this later when I discuss Smoking Kills. Item Lending: A useful update but one that spawns a new generation of begging. Now we can lend for cash? Just promotes the making and using of junk. Instead of exchanging pouches for shards and keeping money in the game, scrolls will be made just to trade with. A good concept with too many negative side effects. Spirit of Summer: This quesy made me angry. Instead of bringing a sequel quest to the wilderness, we must go off on a new tangent before we can have useful updates. One could make the argument that the whole staff can't work on one update at once. But this statement doesn't apply because they could choose one of the many unfinished storylines to work on instead. Rocking Out: Another infuriating quest. Instead of tying it in to an existing pirate storyline, we must take in a new one. Also, the quest ends in such a bad spot that I can't help but think that it was cut short for an earlier release. Few people thieve the custom files and the quest offers no other long-term benefits. Toktz-Ket-Dill: This quest was particularly annoying because we have needed entrance to the Tzhaar city for a long time. Instead we got a little-used mining spot far from the bank. Few people will return to the quest area after completion, which is the core problem. Perils of Ice Mountain: This quest was a slap in the face because it would have tied in much better as a sequel to Dwarf Cannon. The ability to smith pickaxes would be very easy and an update to the cannon would have been welcome. Besides; who thinks Dwarf Cannon wasn't a low-level quest? Legacy of Seergaze: Although this quest has decent rewards, it extends a storyline further when it doesn't need to be. I'd prefer if the quest had included entrance to the castle and leave us just short of hunting down the ruler of Meiyerditch. All these above updates are examples of an update that few people will use on a long-term basis. They don't really add anything to the game. They extend a storyline that should be finished and start new ones instead of finishing an existing storyline. Below, I'll discuss some good updates. The Bank Update: A solid, requested update. Good things happen when Jagex listens to player ideas. The best part is that we get to customize the tabs. But yeah, a good update that followed through and will be used forever. New Lumbridge: Although I am a very high-leveled player, I found these good, balanced updates. The explorer's ring is incredibly useful for f2p use, and it's good to have a diary that anyone can and will complete. Smoking Kills: Just behind Summoning as the top update in years. It leaves the previous slayer training method untouched but adds many features that make Slayer faster and more enjoyable. It's fair to say that anyone who seriously trains slayer has used or thought about these rewards. Also, the update is unique for everyone; what order will you spend your points, and which tasks will you block? Quick Chat and Level-up Banners: These are improvements. Quickchat, though annoying, is very useful to find muted players and communicate with them. Also, the level banners are more detailed and informative yet easier to access. This set of updates will not fizz out like Rat Pits or Trouble Brewing. They will be widely used and add something useful to RuneScape. OK, to the main discussion point. I am discussing updates that will only be played when they are new and have little use to RuneScape. Vinesweeper comes to mind; this game is NOT worth playing for exp or seeds. It adds nothing and, in my opinion, was a waste of Jagex's time to develop. I will use Rat Pits as the ultimate failure. NO ONE, even on the themed world, plays it. It was a stupid update and I think they knew it. Why have they not yet changed that world to Lootshare? Your guess is as good as mine. Why does the QA team keep changing updates to give lower rewards? Why are you not awarded MANY more Vinesweeper points per flagged seed and make the minigame useful? Because this is, after all, a QA fault. These updates are "nerfed" before they even come out. A mild nerf after one week wouldn't hurt; give the update a chance to be good before it is condemned. An example can be found in Smoking Kills, if they had made cancelling a task take 4000 points instead of 400. Why nerf something to make sure that it won't be used? Too many updates, it seems, are not worth the effort because they are no more efficient than the average training methods. Actually, they're so much slower that very few people bother to use them. You cannot pull out the "fun" card because they could easily have updated one of the MANY current minigames or quests. To put it simply, new updates don't pack enough punch to alter the training methods accepted as most efficient, or even to contend with them. Quests are completely off the point and don't finish anything; a quest feels like an odd job now instead of interesting gameplay. I think this is quite wrong. These are updates, not downgrades; they are supposed to add useful content to the game instead of new junk programming lines that increase the size of RuneScape. NOTE: I am not asking for insanely useful updates that nerf previous training methods. But this is just my opinion; what do you think? --------- I think the All Fired Up minigame is great. Mainly because of the ring of fire and flame gloves, which make a small but useful difference that WILL BE USED. Also the adze is quite useful for power woodcutting. Not the greatest for cash - but that's something that balances out the good parts for powercutting.

Well that is one point I'll agree with you on. The reason that partyhats sell for all junk and 3a amulets sell for 150m is that they are much harder to trade. Junk doesn't come easy. I do believe that if the GE looked at seldom traded items and adjusted based on where the offers are, the price would settle at a price less inflated than current junk prices.

I love how merchants are blamed for both raising and lowering prices. You want everything cheap except the things that you sell for profit. "Omg why are furies still 2.8m noob merchants!!111!" "Why can I only sell sara swords for 6m ffs noob merchants lower price" Merchants can't turn the price of an item or keep it steady on their own, only slow down the correct change (excluding hoarding by clan chats). Thus preventing dfs from being under 10m right now. This is a perfect example of an ignorant post. You don't care about 140m gp? I'll take it from ya! No, the only 3a is sold in the Grand Exchange is the pieces achieved by newb clue hunters. Almost all 3a is traded with junk in w2 and clan chats. Some people use pouches as junk. Does that mean all pouches should be worth 0 gp? Of course not...And like I said, price manipulators can't alter the direction an item is moving, only *slightly* slow the process.

Congrats...never really knew you till you sold to Gin, well you made him happy :D