Fallstar

Wrong. Players selling gold don't even make up a single percentage of the gold sold by gold selling websites. I have no evidence for that other than my own knowledge, so ignore it if you want to. If no players sold gold, the gold selling websites would still run their bots and people would still buy gp. Players selling gold to the site have no impact there. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I'm not talking about players directly selling gold to other players. I'm talking about players selling gold to the big gold selling sites. How am I enabling the system, when the system would exist in an identical state to if I didn't sell gold (hypothetically speaked ofc). The only reason the gold selling sites buy gp off players is because they can sell it to other players for higher prices. If every RS player suddenly decided not to sell gp, the gold selling sites wouldn't even bat an eyelid. They derive the vast majority of their gold from bots. If the RWT system works perfectly without someone selling gold, what does it matter if that someone makes a little profit off it? Heh. Now we have legitimate gold selling. Lol'd. Put it this way: players selling gold is like one link in the RWT chain. But if you removed that link, the chain would still function perfectly. That's all I have to say on this part of the topic for now.

Yeah they've said xp rates in the beta are no where near balanced yet. They said they're aiming for at least the same xp rate as live RS, and not significantly over, in the livestream. 2m mage xp/hr and 400k melee xp/hr clearly doesn't fit that description. Hopefully magic and ranged will be of similar effectiveness to melee post EoC, so you should be able to get a decent xp rate (100k-150k) just through normal combat/slayer without spending lots of cash on barraging/chinning.

No, I still think that those who sell gold don't have a negative impact full stop. The process goes: Sell Gold -> Gold is stored on a mule -> Gold is bought. Selling gold and storing that gold on a mule has 0 negative influence as far as I see it. Perhaps the mule takes some extra unnecessary memory on Jagex's servers, I don't know. When I said that I was trying to demonstrate that even if you think gold selling has a non 0 negative influence, that influence is still negligible. It does have a bearing. Whilst the rules may be out of our hands, you can still make an informed decision. I think the chance of getting banned using staking transfer methods such as giving PID in a vls stake are effectively 0. I.e. the rules cannot be enforced. If the rules cannot be enforced, then the only factor determining whether or not you follow them is whether or not you think that rule is right.

Even when the wealthiest players sell gold, they're only a drop in the ocean compared to the tens of thousands of bots farming resources 24/7. It's a balancing act. Obviously RWT is against the rules, so someone thinking about selling gold would have to think about the risk of getting banned, and the negligible impact it would have on the game. And balance that against benefits selling gold would bring to their real lives - which I'm sure most people here would agree is more important. I'm not saying RWT isn't against the rules, that'd be silly. Equally as silly would be suggesting we follow the rules blindly without thinking about them, especially when the people who make the rules seem to have a more "they're more like guidelines" attitude.

Now you're just arguing semantics. Well it's an important distinction to make, which determines whether or not people selling gold have contributed to the mess that is modern RS. E: Which is a nope.

Actually, you selling the gold doesn't mean the gold is ever bought. It could just sit there on a mule account until the servers are shut down. That's the point; selling gold does not negatively impact the game. The gold is bought, because a significant proportion of the Runescape population are willing to cheat to gain an advantage. And even if players didn't sell gold, gold selling sites would still acquire vast quantities of gold through botting, and I think it's clear to most people now that Botany Bay has been no where near as successful as hoped, to put it gently.

No, he just closed his eyes, starting clicking at random and by chance managed to accept them without ever realizing they were they there. The terms and conditions have changed drastically since I accepted them. I have never been asked to accept the new terms and conditions however.

To put it simply, it encourages people to buy gp. It lowers the price, which increases demand. When demand increases, companies seek to increase supply, in this case by creating bots. There are very few players capable of affecting prices. When WAD sold his bank in March, which was about 150B at the time, the prices on the site he sold it to didn't change. The site he sold it to could easily move that much gold in a week, so why would they decrease their prices? For the sites, prices are a balancing act between how much gold they can move before Jagex lock their mules. You can assume there is already an arbitrarily large demand for rsgp. When you read threads like this, you wonder why there is any demand for rsgp. After all, everyone is a self righteous [bleep] who would never engage in such activities. Yet some sites sell over $1 Million of RSGP a year. People selling gold do no harm. After all, if people weren't willing to buy that gold, it'd just sit there. The harm comes from the people who buy the gp and use it to cheat.

DVDs are classed as tangible goods, even if you download one and then try to spread it around for profit, it's still a tangible good. On the other hand, RSGP is an intangible good. That's the difference. The only tangible thing about RSGP is the number stored in Jagex's databases. Considering how companies worth hundreds of times what Jagex is worth have failed to significantly impact illegal markets of tangible goods such as DVDs and Video games, do you really think there's a chance of bringing someone to court over the sale of an intangible good? (Bearing in mind that the 'intangible' classification makes it impossible to prosecute in many countries with copyright laws, and significantly more difficult in the rest.) Also, does anyone know how Jagex would prosecute someone over something like this? They are an English company, owned by American investors. I assume since they operate in England, English law applies. Let's say that selling RSGP is illegal in England (i have no idea whether it is or not, but just assume it is for now), would they be able to prosecute someone who lived in country X where it isn't illegal? I am genuinely curious, as I know next to nothing about law.

This is a pointless question as other than those who have been banned, I don't think we're allowed to accuse a player of RWT. That said, I have a pretty good friend who was in WAD, and is now in Fishy, who paid off most of his debt from college (he was American) through RS. He started his adult life without tens of thousands of dollars of debt hanging around his neck. Anyone who claims they wouldn't take that choice has either been extremely lucky and has wealthy parents, or has minimal actual life experience.

You called his post laughable, then compared RWT'rs to drug dealers. Someone selling RSGP does not have the potential to ruin a person's life and health. What swirling sewer are you on about? It's an online game, and if you want to take it that seriously, then Jagex have already ran the game into the ground, so why does it matter if the players contribute slightly to that end? And I'm confused about your "tantamount to a "well THEY did it first", excuse." line. What's wrong with that? If Jagex aren't willing to uphold their own rules, give me one good reason why the players should?

You might think to yourself, hey, if I sell 10b, that's a nice £3k or so. That's like a year's tuition for me (England). It might not seem like much to you - you're just one guy right - but very, very few players will actually buy that much gold. Your 10b is probably split into hundreds of 50m and 100m parcels by the site. And bingo, your actions as an individual have catapulted hundreds of people into the 'middling wealth' bracket (100m-1b or so) from where they can make cash without a great deal of effort. That's why I didn't RWT. But then Jagex released SoF, lied over the bot nuke, and their general attitude suggests to me that the game as I know it is rather short lived. So if people want to make a quick bit of cash off the game, I'm not going to complain. It's not like Jagex aren't doing the exact same thing, so why shouldn't the players make some cash off it too? As for the chance of being banned...how can Jagex tell the difference between someone who doesn't know how to stake, and someone who gives their opponent pid on purpose in a vls/maul stake?

Why is it stupid? The thread is about players competing for 200m in all skills. If that isn't the persons goal there is no reason for them to be on the list. Quite simple really. Some people just play RS without ever setting 200m all as a goal, but still get close enough to it to be worth tracking. Which is why it being required to state it as a goal is silly.

If Pikin had 55B I'll eat my hat. He used to play FP with other hosts when he was in WAD and would always get cleaned (twice by me :] ) and now he's addicted to staking. He has a bad staking mentality, the doubling kind. It's vaguely possible I guess, but if he told you that he was probably exaggerating. I don't think he's ever had over 10B tbh.

If you chose to give away your money, then that was your decision. What Suomi does with that money is frankly none of your business, any ownership you had of it passed to him to do with as he pleases when you pressed accept.

Ban all bots. Whether you're using it to farm gp or gain xp or whatever is irrelevant. You deserve an instant permanent ban, not this pathetic 3 strike system.

You're right, spending 0.2 hours during BXPW using your charms will save you 5.2 hours worth of charm collecting in the future. But again, you're conveniently ignoring the time it took to acquire those charms in the first place. It took you 5 hours. Therefore, regardless of when you chose to collect and use your charms, you're still saving half the time (as opposed to 30x or 50x). And again you're right that that can be "unbalanced" in comparison to the other skills over the weekend. But if you look at the bigger picture, it's just as fair as every other skill at the end of the day (err, weekend). The allocation of time is irrelevant since it's all balanced evenly in the end. In the bigger picture, yes it's a 2x modifier. I am not saying that summoning is 30x or 50x faster - I probably wasn't very clear to begin with - I am saying time spent using charms on BXP has 30x or 50x the return compared to time spent doing other skills on BXP. Overall: It took you 5.2 hours to gather charms and use them if BXP exists. Overall: it took you 10.4 hours to gather charms and use them if BXP doesn't exist. So yes, it does only halve the time spent. Why i think it is unbalanced is that you need only spend 0.2 hours during the BXP to save you 5.2 hours. I think we agree now? lol. If you could only use charms which you collected during BXP time on BXP, then it would be far more balanced, would still be a 2x modifier overall, and would mean using charms during BXP time has similar returns to other skills.

Yup, I completely agree. This would further increase the value of time spent using charms versus non buyable skilling, but I was only initially considering the extra time saved from gathering charms. My post was about generic buyables vs generic non buyables, not summoning, sorry if I wasn't very clear.

My point isn't about that. My point is that if BXP didn't exist, you would have to spend 10.4 hours skilling. Overall the time is halved obviously; you now spend 5.2 hours skilling. That's non debatable. But you didn't spend those 5 hours gathering charms during your limited 48 hours of BXP did you? If you gathered the charms for 5 hours during BXP, then spent 0.2 hours using charms during BXP, then BXP has saved you 5.2 hours for 5.2 hours work, right? But you don't gather charms during BXP. You only spend the 0.2 hours using charms during BXP, so 0.2 hours of BXP have saved you 5.2 hours. Which is why BXP working on Sum is OP; no one will waste their BXP time gathering charms. If you couldn't use stockpiled charms during BXP, and could only use charms you gather during BXP, then what you are saying would be correct. But that isn't the case. If BXP didn't exist, you'd have to spend those 5 hours gathering charms anyway. Jagex are saving you 5 hours for only 0.2 hours of skilling during BXP, that's what my problem is. Well, not my problem per se, as I intend to take advantage of it, but that's what the problem is. :P

Correct, but money can be earned at far higher rates than charms collected, so it doesn't have as big of an impact. But yes, time spent training buyable skills is saves you more time than non buyables if you don't assume infinite gp/hr.

My point is that one hour of summoning on BXP is worth far more than one hour of any other skill. So using your figures: I spend 5 hours collecting 1000 charms. If it wasn't BXP I'd need to spend an additional 5 hours gathering charms. On BXP I spend 0.2 hours using my charms. By spending 0.2 hours using charms on BXP, I have saved myself those additional 5 hours gathering charms. With Summoning: 0.2 hours spent using charms = 5 hours saved. Whereas with any other skill, 0.2 hours spent skilling = 0.2 hours saved. With your figures, I am saving 50x more time by using charms than I am doing any other skill. Of course your figures are arbitrary, but they're order of magnitude appropriate.

If it takes 300 hours to gather charms for 1-99 summoning, you would have to spend 150 hours gathering charms to use on BXP. So the time spent gathering charms is halved - you save 150 hours. The problem is that you don't have to gather charms on BXP, only use them. If you used charms for 5 hours of BXP in your example, you'd save 150 hours of collecting charms. If BXP gave you a 2x modifier to charm drop rates, I'd be fine with that. But it doesn't. It ignores the 30+ hours of charm collecting associated with every hour of using charms.

That one guy is pretty much irrelevant, he was just an example of the extremes. Anyone who trains summoning this bxp - myself included - is getting a significant bonus far above what they get from any other skills. if you can't see where the 30x modifier comes from, let me put it this way: Lets say you use 10k crims on BXP. Those 10k crims took at least 30 hours to obtain, and that's being extremely generous with charm collection rates. But because it's double xp, you get the same summoning xp as if you'd used 20k crimsons. So lets examine the bonus xp: you get double. That means you got the xp from an extra 10k crims, without gathering those charms. The problem is that with a normal skill, the time spent gathering supplies is negligible, so the overall xp/hr rate only doubles with bxp. However with summoning, that one hour of using charms is also equivalent to >30 hours of gathering charms. The only instance where the multiplier is 2x is if you had an infinite number of charms or if charm collection takes 0 time. But you obviously don't, and it doesn't. One hour of using charms on BXP doesn't just save you that extra hour of using charms: it saves you the 30+ hours you would have spent gathering those extra charms too. I personally have a decent number of charms, and I plan on using them. I'm not one to throw away an advantage because it has a negative impact on the game. That doesn't mean I can't see that it does has a negative impact on the game. At the end of the day, Runescape is about having fun. But a lot of that sense of fun comes from spending time achieving a goal. I understand that xp rates need to increase slightly over time, but a 30x + increase - which this is - feels more like I'm playing a server than the real game. Edit: The bolded part in your post is my point basically. Using charms on BXP saves you the time you would have spent gathering charms too.

Why is it a bad thing, though? Because one person has enough charms to join the 200m club, the whole thing should be scrapped? Summoning is among the least accessible skills in the game for all of the reasons that you just described - it's a skill that asks for a lot of time and money for a handful of useful familiars. It's not just 200m though. Whether it's people getting 88 sum for uni or whatever, anyone who trains summoning on this weekend will benefit massively. Also, summoning is one of the most useful skills, so I don't see why you're saying there's only a handful of useful familiars. Slaying with steel titans, mining with lava titans, fishing with granite lobsters, woodcutting with beavers, healing with unicorns and bunyips, infinite run + limited storage from terrorbirds, storage from yaks and tortoises, storage + banking from yaks... Summoning is one of the most useful skills. The reason it is expensive is because there is a very significant demand for tertiaries, due to just how useful of a skill it is. E: and no matter how much people might think the grind in RS needs reducing, a factor of 30 increase in xp rates is not the answer I'm sure...

How? A lot more people get xp? People always through around buzzphraises like game breaking and don't even say how this will break the game. Not sure if serious. I'll break it down. 1. Actually training summoning is only a small part of the skill, most of it is collecting charms. 2. By allowing you a 2x modifier on summoning xp, you obviously need to collect only half of the charms. 3. Since you can produce approximately 10k pouches an hour, that means that every hour of bxp used on summoning saves you 10k charms. 4. 10k crimsons would take at least 30 hours to collect. 5. Training sum with crims on bxp represents an approximate 30-fold increase in overall xp rate. Whilst the xp rate of using charms is only doubled, the xp rate of summoning overall is ~ 30x faster. it should be obvious how it is game breaking now. Put it this way: over 5k people got 99 summoning on the first bxp where it wasnt capped to 1.1x. That was when you had the degrading modifier too. One player has these charms. Which would only take about 24 hours to use. That's about 100 million summoning xp, which will be doubled to 200m. If a 3000% increase in xp rate isn't game breaking to you, then I don't really know what will be.