brando13a

Correct, not all areas are fair to all people. This isnt a problem. Cow pens, a favorite example, arent "fair" for melee'ers, however they still have a chance. Thus the term advantage, an advantage doesnt completely guarantee a win, it just makes the chances better. So you're right, not all areas should be totally equal to everyone, although it would make the whole or runescape a pretty interesting place because everyone would have things to use to their advantage.. But please, give me one of these "poisons". I've rebuted most, if not all of the arguments for keeping this in the game. some people said jagex gave it to rangers as a gift, that's plainly wrong, as this whole discussion is about an accidental oversight. Jagex almost definitly did not impliment the wilderness ditch, before the removal of the wilderness, in preparation to give rangers an advantage at the release of pvp worlds -.- So please, give me a nice numbered list of points for me to rebute, it would be much appreciated, considering I havnt commented on anything anyone else has said in this topic ;) So fill it out, and i'll get right on it.

Currently I agree zaaps, melee stands no chance there so it's a pointless venture to try.

Well it's become painfully obvious that simply telling what's wrong doesnt work, so I'm trying "dumb it down" so to speak, by making analogies as I see fit, granted they arent the greatest, but they still hold some context as to what we're discussing. As for you're drawing... yes... that is... one frame of what could possibly be called a strategem? All its missing is player B jumping across to attack, and player A doing the same, attacking, and the process repeating pointlessly. The point is- its broken, and until I see any real justification as to why it is so, because there hasnt been a single point yet that stands out as saying "This is completely fair to all parties involved and is the way the game should be"

Wrong suma, ranged is assumed to be allowed unless specifically blocked. When Jagex implements anything, any new area, open space is open, and traversable by walking, and projectiles, there are no restrictions on the space. This only means that they didnt think to block ranged in that specific area, not that they intended for range to work. It's a difficult concept i know, but its the same as you giving someone a piece of paper. they may choose to write on it, or they may choose to make a paper airplane out of it, even if you're intent was for them to write on it. In this manner, you didnt specifically say they couldnt make a paper airplane, but it is assumed that they can.

@ soma- I'm not saying "dont use everything available to you", for the time being use the ditch, you're free to do so, I'm just pointing out that its very likely to change in one way or another. The ditch was put into the game what? a year or more before pvp worlds came out, and the ditch was put in place in a time when you could only attack on one side of it. Programming oversights lead to this problem, and its an obvious problem now that people are using it, this is how game developers find bugs- through trial and error, they cant account for every aspect in a game this big, and i'd say they did a pretty darn good job with pvp worlds considering. They DIDNT specifically make the choice to allow range and mage to go over it, they specifically didnt BLOCK ranged and mage from going over it, because at the time, there was no need for such stipulations, as people could only fight eachother on one side of the ditch, and the only thing to attack across the ditch would be the wandering black knight/rats. @Morningrise333- once again, the differences with many of those are the ability to attack back. if someone is in the maze and shoots over it (if thats possible) then the person being attacked can still navigate the maze and retaliate if they so choose, granted i doubt anyone would stick around. And you are correct, most of runescape wasnt designed for pvp, and it will lead to problems, but jagex is a big company, and they'll figure things out. My quarrel with the ditch, is that it both no longer serves its intended purpose, yet still exists. And that it is abuseable because of the fact that it exists in pvp worlds. think of it this way, you could go to school and beat up your janitor, and he couldnt do a thing about it because of laws protecting you as a minor. in this scenario, you are the ranger, the janitor is the melee'er and the laws are the ditch. they arent fair given that circumstance, but they still exist. At what point does the inability to defend yourself become a problem with laws/stipulations set in place? that scenario is an oversight in the making of the laws, and is very much like this case, except that we can safely remove the ditch and the only thing that changes is rangers loose their advantage in that 1/1000th of the world (albeit a bugged advantage) edit- in the given scenario, yes you (ranger) have repercussions such as juvenile detention, and being charged with assault as a minor, but if the janitor did anything in retaliation, i guarantee you he'd go to jail. That is no exaggeration, there have been cases of this happening if you care to look it up. that's the only real difference- in real life you have repercussions (punishment), using the wilderness ditch is a 0 risk venture.

@soma- I dont know why you keep not seeing the vital difference in all of this: INTENT! Jagex programmed the ditch, true. Jagex programmed magic, again true. the difference: magic was intended to- attack players, teleblock, freeze, lower stats etc, as those are what jagex openly gave us, and INTENDED for us to use. The ditch was INTENDED to prevent people wandering into the wilderness and being owned by revanents. It was NOT INTENDED by jagex to have the ditch used as a means for rangers to exploit a programming oversight left in the pvp worlds to upset the combat triangle by removing the rangers weakness: melee. The ditch is an obstacle, but it isnt one that a meleer can get around. the ranger can, and can attack in between doing so. It's broken, and unintentionaly on jagex's part.

the difference between lleyta and the wilderness ditch is that everything in lleyta, and all of your examples actually, have a skill requirement to pass. So, if someone who has poor agility decides to go melee pking in lleyta, it's their own fault, because they should be aware that its a difficult obstacle. While I do understand that lleyta is effectively the same thing (if you can actually range people over the traps) but trollheim, and the ge pass CANT be ranged over. That's one thing unique (again unless lleyta lets you range over the traps) to the wilderness ditch. It requires no skill to cross, access, and no penalty whatsoever, it makes rangers invulnerable, which is bug abuse, dont know why people are so keen on having a broken part in the game, it just makes it worse overall. really? Jagex has been making bug fixes and removing/fixing broken/useless things all over runescape for the past year, this is just the first time something majorly abuseable has really come up. If you're such a terrible ranger that you have to resort to a programming oversight in order to win, maybe you should try another combat style... and if you are a good ranger, why argue that this ditch is necessary? you can get your kills anyway :thumbsup:

Well Morningrise333, as it seems you didnt actually read any of the topic, I'll say yet again why this is bug abuse -.- Any other obstacle in runescape, can be traversed, or circumnavigated to reach your target. ie- cow pens, yes, you have to run a heck of a lot, but you WILL eventually reach, and be able to attack your assailant. The ditch however, provides rangers with a literal perfect shield against melee, without using any food/potions, nor risking any loss whatsoever. As soon as a melee'er gets close, they jump, shoot, jump shoot, and so on, and the melee'er stands no chance of ever even hitting a 0 let alone having a fighting chance. This is bug abuse. Jagex in no way intended on providing rangers with "infinite hp". and the wilderness ditch provides that, in the form of melee never being able to attack, but range still can. This is different from the cow pens, that the ranger CANT jump over, and the meleer can eventually reach and attack. hopefully you see the point, I did say it somewhat redundantly to reiterate the point.

Your example of a melee'er switching to range gear to stop magic from being effective is... well exactly what people SHOULD do, but it also proves my point completely, MAGE destroys melee, thats WHY you switch to range gear, because range>mage. carrying all 3 kinds of equipment is a smart move, it allows you to fight anyone, any way, no matter what. Sure it cuts back on food/potions, but you can do anything. If you see that this is an abuse problem, then why do you insist that it isnt? you're right, its not something that should be argued, yet here we are. I see the full validity of range having landscape to their advantage, however if that means that they can have 0 risk of dieing, or even being damaged, that's a problem. I dont think it will be fixed with any great haste, but I imagine it will be fixed eventually. As I've said at least 3 times, the ditch is NOTHING like the cow pens, or any other fence for that matter. Yes its tactical, yes its smart, yes its real world, but it isnt balanced in the game world, comparing the two isnt a fair thing to do either, as the game has as many limitations as it does real world impossibilities. Not really sure what else to say, just trying to the point across that this isnt something Jagex gave to rangers, its something rangers discovered and took hold of. Jagex definitly didnt intend for this, I know that much, so dont assume that it's a necessary improvement to rangers, and that removing it will make them all useless everywhere they go.

One of the few people who actually sees the problem, and still knows there's nothing we can do, cookies for zaaps. @Muddybob- look, your argument is weak, you're trying to justify rangers being the top of a pyramid of 3 builds, rather than a corner of the combat triangle. Melee>range>mage>melee. Nobody wins, because they all have a weakness. Rangers are supposed to loose, statistically speaking, to melee, likewise melee should loose to mage, and mage to range. Saying that this is fair because it gives rangers a way to consistently thwart melee, while literally taking no risk whatsoever, just shows you dont see past the fact that you just want to win. It's not a bad way to be, headstrong can take you places, but in a discussion over whether or not this is an abuse or not, you dont stand a chance and you just waste your opinion on it. It is a problem, it wont be fixed for a while, so use it while you can if you want to, personally I just stay away from the wilderness ditch altogether, swarms of people are a hoot, but I prefer taking out single travelers.. just me. So, just accept that this isnt something that was intended, its not like ANY other ranged obstacle, cow pens effectively trap the ranger if they cant take out the person fast enough. It was a shortsighted move on Jagex's part to keep the ditch, but really its just a haven for rangers/mages and is best avoided by anyone who doesnt take a bow/runes with them. @pikmin_warrior- Sometimes flaming cant be helped, self restraint has no real benefit on the internet, as we are all effectively just masked, anonymous strangers shouting our opinions in hopes that others will follow in suit to what we think. IQ may be high or low, but as long as nobody knows who you are, you have no consequence for what you do or say.

I see you suffer from cronic stupid. I'll lay this out for you: Cowpen- Melee has a CHANCE to at least REACH the ranger. Ditch- Mellee has NO CHANCE to touch the ranger at all. NO chance. No way to do damage. This is the equivilant of hacking for infinite hp. it is a bug, and an abusable one at that. Cowpen- good strategy, ranger's only way out is to run/tele ditch- ranger can jump back and forth while attacking, while melee can just follow/run away to try and live. again, melee has NO opportunity to retaliate. Cowpen- not abuseable, just using ranged for what its meant for, shooting over an obstacle. Ditch- again, using ranged what its meant for, shooting over an obstacle- BUT does not give anyone else a fair chance to fight back. I AM a ranger. I know its abuseable. And if you're too greedy or stupid to understand that this isnt fair, well, congrats on being a sub-par human being =D>

I'll say it again: the ditch has no purpose under the context of its creation. simply put- it was an ingenious device that jagex put it, but now, people know where the wilderness is, and they know theres a risk by going into it. This isnt a discussion of "OMGZORS!!! ranged is so unbalanced because it can shoot over things" its a discussion of "OMGZORS!!! ranged has an unfair advantage because there is an ABUSEABLE STRATEGY" This isnt a case of cow pen ranging, this is a case of cow pen ranging, where the ranger can jump to the other side of the fence once the meleer comes close, but then the meleer cant jump the fence. #-o the ranger can jump, shoot, jump shoot, jump shoot, and never get hit by the meleer. I figured people would notice the flaw in the system, but wow! you all just impressed me with how shallow you seem to be looking at the issue at hand. I for one, love ranged. The cow pens are dastardly and cunning, and I quite enjoy using them, and any fence to rattle off hp on people stupid enough to come in line of sight. The ditch however, isnt the cow pen. As I stated above, it is abusable in a way that makes the ranger completely invulnerable to melee, which IS unbalanced. People arent, or at least shouldnt, be asking to have the ditch recoded to stop ranged. this just creates a new imbalance. what should be asked is that the ditch is removed entirely- It's only purpose is on safe worlds, in pvp, it just creates an impenatrable force field for rangers. Hopefully some people will understand what I'm saying, I know many wont, but hey, I tried..

I love the update- I wont say it was needed in any way, but it was considerate and generous of the staff. Although I do see through their front of "caring" as a blatant marketing scheme to seem like they care :lol: . but hey, if its good for the company, it'll be good for the game- more money=more staff=more updates, better, faster and more fun. In theory. But yeah, the ring is great, I just wish I wasnt so daft. I lost the ring, and cant for the life of me figure out how to get it back. I've gone through every chat option with the explorer guy, yet he refuses to yield a replacement >.>

To those of you saying "range is supposed to go over obstacles" =D> good job, you understand simple concepts. However dont be too proud of yourself, as you fail to see the larger picture, in that the ditch was never meant to be used like this, and it IS an abuse of features. The ditch was made in a time when you could only attack people who were on one side of the ditch, and even then they had to be a few steps past the ditch to even be attackable. Now however, the whole world is pvp, meaning the ditch is just an abuseable hinderance: why? because everyone on a pvp world KNOWS THE RISK THEY ARE TAKING. The wilderness ditch is there to prevent people from accidentally entering a dangerous zone. The fact that its there is ironic, oxymoronic, and just plain redundant, when you are required to acknowledge the dangers of pvp upon entering a pvp world. For now, yes its good strategy to abuse the ditch if you can. Its a cheap, easy way to get kills. As for the topic starters complaint: You're right its not fair, however if you dont like range.... well... thats your problem bud, you have a solution available to you, but you actively ignore it on the grounds that "you dislike ranged". Adapt, Die, or leave. complaining wont do you any good, unless Jagex is listening (doubtful).

Because we can, and because if we dont, they will. 184 If there were some penalty for eating/praying (besides being called a noob) then peoples opinions might change, but as it is, its eat/pray to live longer and kill more. I dont see why there's any problem with it, its all part of the game, and if people are too impatient to stock up and make real kills, they should just leave, or cope with the terrible people who want to live, and follow in suit. It's a very over-complicated subject- the answer is: people want the cheapest fastest way to do things, and they'll whine and complain the second anyone does anything different. welcome to earth....

Living- Do you mind the breathing? There's no alternative, so yes, I'm totally okay with the whole thing. Overall, if you're using the equipment right, you should be more than covering the cost, with extra income. Not much more to say..

I dont think teleporting is really a problem, as much as it is an issue with prevention. Now before, the only teleporting from pvp was in lvl 20> wilderness. now its anywhere, and teleblock just isnt doing the trick. I'd personally like a rework of the spell to something along the lines of: lvl ~60-70 No cost- anyone in combat with you looses the ability to teleport for 3 minutes, BUT SO DO YOU. Personally I see it a little better this way, just my view though.

No Snipers_end- This is direct from the KB. enjoy everyone!

hmm... Easy mage exp? if you could manage to get 26 sets of gloves, You could just sit and alch in some hidden nook/cranny of the wilderness for as long as you please. Definitly an intriguing new aspect to training to say the least.

Actually there's a good deal of logic behind it- No risk of loss, for a small chance of reward. It's logical, just not practical, and not productive. I like to challenge myself by 1 iteming, then going off and using whatever armour/food I find/get from kills (I dont just pj, I challenge likewise minded people to no armour deathmatches, in hopes of obtaining some armour) If I'm out in full rune (f2p) I tend to wander around destroying whatever I want, whether they 3 item 1 item, no item, tank or mage, there arent many fights I'll run from (a lvl 112 with a 99 strength/mage/range cape, yes I'll run, I'm level 96 with my highest combat stats being 80 hp and strength) And least of all i wont run from a pjer/3/4itemer. an easy kill is fine with me, especially since it means free food, usually gaining more than i lost in rewards anyway. Conclusion- They're opportunists, it's in everyone, and they just seek the cheapest, lowest risk way to do so. They wont make huge profits, but neither will they ever risk huge loss either.

Ah, my mistake then, thankyou for the prompt response : Great stuff!

You elaborating on my "confusion" or mistakes on the subject would benefit ME, and my understanding. Sofar, I've had you-on several occasions- tell me that I'm wrong, with not so much as a hint of why, or reasoning past "you wouldnt understand" "you're not eligible for the information" "It's a pker thing" "you've never pked before so dont try to talk about it" All this tells me, is someone says I'm wrong, but gives no actual evidence past accusations at my welfare in the area of player killing int he wilderness. This doesnt tell me that I should change my view, or in any way alter my argument, as I've seen no information worthy of making me reconsider what I've said. While it is true I'm not a diehard pker- I also enjoy the rest of the game too, I find it enjoyable to try and explore all aspects of a game before I can fully have a true opinion of it. It's not right to say I have no valid input because Pking isnt all I played runescape for, but likewise I'm not the go to guy for information on the subject, I formed my own style utilizing a cheap(inexpensive), mass attack(swapping between all 3 attack styles) with average defence (d-hide/rune mix at the time), boosted by prayers all around (stat/protect). Now this last point kinda pisses me off. I spent many hours pking, in clans, on my own, with duos, what have you. I've made a fair amount of money pking, nothing especially spectacular, but nothing that anyone could call sad by any stretch of the imagination. I pride myself in "not being a pker" But also take pride in the fact that I know how if I so choose to do so. Barring me from the discussion based on the fact that I havnt pked as much as YOU is a biased comment, and not fair according to written laws of free expression. "Not at liberty to discuss" because you find your view superior to mine. beautiful. Thats like a child with pokemon cards saying "you dont have a *pokemon name here*, therefore you arent at liberty to talk about pokemon". a childish comparison to be sure, but it makes the point all the same. However, that's a whole different issue in life, and I'll do my best to let it slide in the future. As for DreamReaper- Where in any of my comments did I give the remotest mention of anything green, let alone autoing green dragon slaying bots? I'd like to see you in the science community, saying that cancer is curable, because cheese ISNT found on the moon. because that makes about as much sense as where you're drawing your conclusions from here. [hide=]In addition, I can be as mature as I please, I have no problem with lowering my social rank in a faceless, online community of people to whom I'll never have any other relations. I respect the opinions of those who post here, as long as they make sense and are honest in their intent to work for a constructive end, however when people make biased and ridiculous assumptions based on no fact whatsoever, I have a problem. and with that problem I'll call you what I please within the perameters the board will allow. Dont act so high and mighty as to have me believe you are in any way my superior- you are, against my better judgement, my equal, until I have conclusive evidence to prove myself wrong, and believe me you're working on that steadily.[/hide]

one point confuses me slightly: Each person receives the lootshare points before the drop, then the person who gets the drop spends those points, while the others retain them. My confusion is caused by this- if they all have 0 points to start with, they still have 33% chance each of getting the drop, therefore, is it not a possibility that the winner of the drop is determined BEFORE the points are distributed? This is hard to prove or disprove, as you could only draw your data from 3 absolutely fresh never tested individuals, all with 0 LSP. because if the way I theorize it may work from a fresh start is true, then after the very first drop todd (supposing he got the drop) is completely uneligable to get the next drop. this is hard to prove or disprove, as once you have a pool of points, you DO have a chance to recieve multiple drops in a row. this wont change the end result, but from a fresh start, the data will vary. just a possibility, disregard if you wish.

This is why you shouldn't even contribute anything here. All you're doing is spouting bs and assumed truths. How can you even begin to argue that prayer should be used in pkign without ever even pking? Seriously, go back to fletching or whatever you skillers do nowadays. =D> You win the stupid award for October 14th, 2008! congratulations! If you bothered to actually read my post, you'd notice how I was reiterating on the fact that I noticed a large misconception with a majority of my posts. My posts were intended to adress deep wild pking, an area I am well versed in, as opposed to edge pking, where I have little to no experience*. * [hide=]( 7 edge fights on my main rounded account, 6 won, 1 kill, 1 loss. on my melee/range pure I had many more fights ~30, with a much better average, but still only about a 20% margin of actually getting a kill. The only difference between the two accounts, was my pure couldnt pray, only had enough for 10% strength modifier, where my main rounded account could pray. My information gives me the base to conclude that: regardless of what you do, very few people will play with "honor" and stay and die. praying is a non issue based on my data. HOWEVER: i dont have enough data to be concise in my conclusion.)[/hide] I'll have you know that my main account, when i last had members, has a fletching level of 60 flat. so go suck a big one you pompous fool if you assume I'm not knowledgeable in my area of discussion. I play how I feel, and I felt that deep wilderness absolutely trumped edge pking for fun and profit, that's my area of expertice, and thats what I discuss. Good day to you sir. And again to 3hit "mage you" * *(sorry about the spelling, it just bothers me a great deal to type in the "leet speek") Rather than simply say I'm wrong, please prove I'm wrong. A short version of my thoughts of prayer regarding deep wilderness pking: In such a case, of 1v1, It is completely fine to use protect prayers. If I want to waste their food and mine, that is my choice, and if they dont like it, they still have to deal with it. If it causes them to type their distaste for my action, all the better for me. It is a tactic, and it keeps me alive longer, conserving my resources for as long as I can hold them off effectively. It is a paradoxil(sp?) situation in that depending on my opponent, I may conserve my own food, or simply waste both of our resource pools. In most situations, you are better off praying, 30% off of the hits you take is an invaluable asset, and shouldnt be taken lightly. Praying isnt so much to ensure someone dies, as in deep wilderness escape is not very likely, but mroe to ensure that you win whatever the outcome.

3hit"mage you"- It isnt nonsence, you've said yourself that pures were beasts in RSC, since then they've lost most of their advantage, leaning on insults and degredation of others selfesteem to remain the "alpha dog" of the wilderness. Most of my points are made on the fact that I've NEVER gone edge pking. I found it quite stupid, pointless, and annoying. Everyone talks of honor and such, but pray or not, they'll try to run away. Now that we have that whole thing cleared up; that I havnt once been referring to edge pking, which was the original dueling in reality, except that people had no record of their shame when they ran. As such, I make my argument assuming you are pking old school: level 30+ wilderness, where running means almost certain death, and staying for the fight is your only hope- supposing you've already been fighting and are on the verge of loosing that is. And there were many times when I encountered the "you skull first" while pking in deep wild. another point for you 3hit "mage you"- I havnt met a serious solo pker with only one attack style. And I also havnt seen a serious solo pker who- has multiple attack styles- BUT insists on retaliating to prayer by praying back and NOT switching attack styles. many times on pk trips I encountered people well above my level who spent more time switching prayers and calling me a prayer noob, than actually worrying about the fight itself, which lead to their downfall. If they had just taken the time to evaluate what I was doing, they could have killed me with ease. No serious pker worries about their opponent complimenting them on their death. Whether you call me a noob or not doesnt change the fact that I'm looting your stuff. So no, I'm not just spouting nonsense- I just havnt been clearly stating what I'm actually talking about, which is my fault to assume people would follow. so I'm sorry for the misconception- but all of my points have been on deep wild pking, rather than the edge pking gongshow. In the edge pking scenario, I agree that prayer would be a mistake, as your only hope of getting a kill would be to utterly destroy the opponent before they could react and run out of the wilderness.