deep_pain

they are very hard indeed, and they are definately unfairly strong on f2p. but on p2p I dont find them any harder to kill than the average PK'er, if anything they are a bit easier. I managed to kill a 126 using 17 food. it TB'd and hit a lot of 30's, being only 70 def if I saw a 126 on p2p wildy before, I'd be running, because a 126 would 99% of the time beat me. but they are annoying, at least if attacked by a pker on p2p they might hit that high that often, but although with both you risk dying, with PK'ers at least if you won you got a drop that was worth the risk.

I'm not sure why people are posting that people would vote against the changes, I never once said that it should be a vote if the changes happen or not. In short I said, tell us what is cast in stone fine, but they admitted it's not the best scenario, tell us what is not up for debate, and ask us our views on the thigs that are, mini games etc. If they had asked before then they wouldn't need to be doing these changes they talk of now. Of course people are still going to be angry. But it would lessen the impact, some people are just angry for the sake of being angry. That wil always be the case. But as mentioned, I am not angry that they have to do this, maybe I am unhappy that the game will not be the same in the future but I perfectly understand why they have to do these updates and accept that they have been done. The only difference if they had asked before and not after, is that players like myself who have had the only part of the game they enjoyed removed completely, wouldn't have had to go through this. that is what I am angry about, because it was such a simple oversight, an oversight that is easily fixed and based upon their last news, I expect to be fixed. It is not a vote if it should happen or not, it is exactly what they are doing now, saying this is what is not going to change, how about your ideas on things we can put in place to lessen the blow. As for the fact that they are asking now about the 3k limit, TBH I think people forced their hand by being so upset, by behaving the way they did, I personally never did any rants on RSOF or on runescape, but I do believe that they wouldn't have done that post, if people hadn't acted to out of hand. They didn't even mention on the 10th of December update that they would listen to people's views, it took half a day of people spamming their forums before they even made the post asking for views, they never had any intention of listening to players until they were forced to. I perfectly understand that they had to battle RWT which someone said people don't, but that doesn't take away from the fact making these changes didn't happen over-night, it is not a reason why they couldn't have asked our input. My guess would be that they have been working on this for months, well would releasing it 2 weeks later (when they say they plan to implement changes based on our advice), have made Runescape collapse between now and then. I think not. The last poster said: "The only reason that people are angry with this update is that they didn't understand it. Even now, after explanation, people still can't seem to understand." Wrong: I am angry because they failed to ask for our input, at first I was angry because they removed the part of the game which is the reason I play runescape, purely because such minor changes needed to be made (it wont make PKing as good as it was but at least there would be an option). It seemed it was such an obvious thing, that to not have worked it into the update, it seemed they were intentionally removing tha part of the game, now it appears they wern't and they did somehow simply overlook what seemed extremely obvious just reading about it before going and trying the minigames.

I agree with a lot of the post. It is more of a rant than general discussion tho? also I am not someone who has ever been taken advantage of in the wild, I've been hit by lure teams and PJ'ed many times, but surely that is the risk of being in the wild. I don't PJ or like PJ'ers but I accept them as a risk of being in the wild. The wilderness update was purely to do with RWT not pj'ers, do you have any evidence to suggest it is? Also what would say is PJ'ing?

Most people are angry because there are some simple things they just overlooked. I can understand when a new skill is released not giving away to much, just little bits here and there to keep people interested. But when a game is changed so fundementally, surely they should ask for paying players input. They say that RWT was completely out of control, well in my view it has been for months if not years. They say something had to be done now. Well they must have some amazing coders and artists, because I'm sure the updates didn't take a week. They've been working on this for some time. Fine tell us some things that aren't going to be debatable. IE, fine no dropping items over a certain value, fine a limit on unbalanced trades. Fine tell us that you'll be closing down the wild and putting in it's place mini-games. But just ask our opinions on it before they release it not after. Some simple things could have been fixed pre-release, somewhere for solo PKing spots, or a monthly gift limit or staking limit, or any of the whole host of other ideas I've seen posted. sme of them bad some of them good, but at least listen to the ideas. OK people would still have been unhappy at certain elements, but at least they would have had input, personally the way the game is now, as a PK'er i log on and wonder what to do, I've tried BH a few times, no good unless you have a massive team, and I've never really been one for team PKing, alhough obviously at time it can be fun, but not as the only option, I've been playing fight pits and clan wars and castle wars since the update, none of them make up for losing the part of the game I and many others liked. Fun for some sure but I just find them boring. I know they will be doing changes, and they have made it clear that certain things will not be changed back. but what would it have cost them to tell us this before the update, to ask our input before they put these changes in place. Rather than do the changes and damage peoples playing experience unneccesarily. Fine some things still might not have worked, fine a lot of people that complain for the sake of complaining would still complain, fine people like me would still be unhapy at certain changes, but I would accept those changes if we were involved in the process, the chances are if we were involved they would have made these changes that they are talking about now, before releasing them not after. would it really have been that difficult just for them to ask, set boundaries on what is not debatable and listen to peoples ideas before not after release.

I don't want the game to be smaller, I want my resolution to be set to Windows Vista's default, because it's the one that's most comfortable for me to look at. I don't want to set it to 800x600 because it makes everything look blurry and large. it's the nly reasolution that runescape fills the screen, runescape doesn't look any different just bigger because the resolution is very low. yeah windows does look bad.

I kind of like that idea, but RS map is huge now, people wouldn't go on there to train only PK, even the official PK worlds b4 you'd have trouble finding anyone between low level wild and high level wild. everyone was either in high or low. only a few Pk'ers ventured between and sometimes it could be ages between seeing anyone. Maybe if it was limited to the f2p map or something. Make everything outside city walls on every server wildy starting lvl 1 going back down to lvl 1 by the next city walls, make all dungeons safe, maybe some other specific areas as safe zones like some mines etc.. I know it has huge gaping holes, and no one wil like the idea, but forget everyone else I'd love it :P I played a mud for a while about 7-8 years ago along that basis, god knows what it was called, you could fight anywhere, I remember the 1st time I played there was some kind of big battle between 2 clans (on different islands) and the battle was on ships halfway between the 2 islands, for some reason as I was such a low lvl I could only be knocked unconcious and not killed, so after the battle there were about 50 piles of loot and only 2 or 3 people alive, so I went and filled my boots with bounty. Everytime I went on after that people would randomly attack me for being a looter, I tried to explain that I'd never played such a game before and didn't know I wasn't allowed to pick stuff up, but would get a furious private message from the people killing me telling me off for talking off topic lol.. I was nearly put off roleplay games for life.

If there's no loot the wilderness would just be like a big mini-game. If anything the wilderness would be harder for those who train there or are doing clues etc.. If everyone who was previously scared of PKing for fear of losing items started fighting in the wild they'll attack anyone and everything. The majority of real PK'ers won't attack people training because the drop isn't worth wasting food. OK there are idiots that do, but for real PK'ers there is nothing better than seeing some idiot waste his food on someone training 'cos when they're done you go and get a real kill. Clans would not use the wilderness, If there was no drops why would they bother? they might as well use clan wars. I don't see PKing as 2 types, I see it as both that you mentioned. I PK for the buzz, part of that buzz was beating another player, part of that buzz was the reward for killing that player. Although obviously PK'ers in real terms, I don't innclude clans, lure teams, people who kill anyone training in the wild. For me and most other PK'ers I know, PKing was about a challenge & the reward, I wouldn't kill peple mining mith, because there is no challenge, there is also no reward, the same when on p2p on my other char I wouldn't kill clue hunters or ppl that train on dragons, because there is no challenge and little reward. I don't go into the wild with 1 item or 3 items, part of being in the wild for me is also the risk of losing items if I am bettered, which leads to understanding the wild, places if you are outnumbered you can run, places where lures always are, standing behind a tree so mages have to come close, single combat routes to safety, multi combat routes, trees to run through if being attacked by multiple mages / rangers so they cant hit you. PKing was more than just killing people that dont care if they lose anything. I don't call being in a team of 40 people and killing 1 or 5 people PKing, there is no challenge. I don't want to be told who to attack and when to attack them, I want to pit my skills against 1 or 2 or 3 people not clans, OK I am not the majority, but I don't see how group PK'ers are unhappy, BH is perfect for them, or is it that now it's not so easy for them? chances are in BH they will only meet another group as large or larger. Solo PKing was a skill, ok it didnt have levels but it was challenging and had a reward, making a wildy with no drops wouldn't fix that. I understand Jagex's need to fight RWT, but I see it as a much more simple fix, make BH a bit larger, have a map rather than a big empty room, more like what is on clan wars, with obstacles, trees, walls, bits of buildin maybe, and make it have single and multi zones, it wouldn't be PKing of old but at least more of a challenge, BH is no challenge it is purely who has the largest group wins. It wouldn't make PKing as good as it used to be, but at least it would give an option for solo PKers, an option which at the moment is non-existent.

I've alwys played RS on 800x600 as you say it's annoying 'cos that's the only time I use that low a resolution, but it only takes about 2 seconds to change resolution, not that big a problem. It's the only way I can get it to fill the whole screen lowering it to the lowest resolution my monitor allows.

wow short memory? do you not remember all the skillers crying that low levels could fish shark and mine valuable ores because fishing etc were on assist? or was that too long ago in the vast distance of time? 1 slight difference between people crying about a few fish and Solo PKing, duellling etc being taken out of a game, low levels being able to fish a few sharks a day didnt stop anyone else from fishing them, removing solo PKing etc, has removed that part of the game that was the only part some people enjoy. There are other cases where people complaining has gotten things changed that is just the most recent. We sat and watched people cry over such trivial things as a noob actually being able to make a little GP, that now the reason we play RS has been removed you expect us to sit in silence.

as mentioned before "gone" kind of throws the whole argument. English is not a classical language and has few hard and fast rules on pronunciation. there is no specific way to say every word that ends in one. i say skon, I actually thought scone would be a northern thing rather than southern, I lived my life half and half north/south and if anything I find more northerners say scone than southerners. If one is meant to be pronounced as you say, then why is own not one? thrown not throne a lot of words with simular spellings are pronounced different ways or a lot of words with different spellings are pronounced the same way. our language is far too large to be limited by rules saying certain letter combinations must be pronounced the same way in all cases. but yeah skon for me.. but I prefer muffins. or english mufffins as some may call them. out of interest does anyone say eat in the past tense. (et) who eat the food? rather than who ate.

No 3k limit, so you can give away 3k if you want, once every 15 minutes You can sell ful rune, say the value of full rune is 200k (i know it's not that anymore) if someone offers you 197k that's fine, but if they offer 196k Jagex wont allow it. If you sell your full rune for 197k and then someone asks if you have one air rune (10gp) for free, you wont be able to give it to them for 15 minutes after you sold your rune. If it's a trade, a gift, whatever. You cant accept or give 3k less/more than it's value, the trade wont work.

I have a story about noobs, noobs call people noob a lot. good story?

It depends when they do it, but yeah if they do release it before christmas you wont be able to give away more than 3k every 15 minutes,.

you wont in future be able to drop anything of more than 3k value and people se it. you also wont be able to trade and buy something and offer less or more than 3k either way of it's value.. got some extra rune and need fas cash? then you'll have to wait behind the 99 smith with 30k rune scimmys to sell. because he'll be selling them at bottom price so you cant sell cheaper. got 100 yew logs u need to sell? get behind the queue of thousands of woodcutters going for 99 selling their logs etc etc

how about if you dont like complaining? not posting on a forum and complaining? everyone has a right to complain about something they dont like. including you. but if you aregoing to complain about complaining at least see why people are complaining first.

Not the way I read your post, but that's beside the point. Jadex have done this. And they have done this for reasons they see as valid. It is their game to develop as they wish, if you don't like it, don't play it. I don't, and I shan't. If enough people vote with their feet, it will do a hellova lot more good than a bunch of complainers who continue to pay up. I would answer some of your points. but well your post is of a different opinion to mine so I guess in your world it makes it beside the point. so I guess I won't bother.

quite different really, trade update obviously wont stop you playing the part of the game that is the reason you have a runescape account (although I sense for some it will). A lot of PK'ers have been members for months or years. It is the only part of the game they enjoy, why that is the case shouldn't be in question, I will not question the part of the game you enjoy. The fact is they play RS to PK, like you play RS to do whatever you do. It's not a case of it's only a small change to what they do on Runescape, it is their entire reason for playing runescape. They are not cheaters, RWT's, bots or scammers more than any other type of player on RS. The fact is they are paying for a service, Jagex have quite happily been accepting their money for months or years, and in one swoop have removed the reason they play the game. There's been updates in the past that have affected me that I didn't like, but updates are updates if I don't like them, I wont use them. This isn't just about not liking an update. The fact that Solo PKing no longer exists, isn't just that a part of the game has changed for me, it is that the whole part of the game I liked has been removed. No I wont do a: omg i quit you ruined my life post, because if i quit that's nobodys business but mine and friends, but for people like you to act like we dont have a right to complain after years of subscription, well whatever makes u happy I guess.

Yah I think a large % of it must be bots

it wasnt a clear exageration at the time 41k were online it was the number that were online... what do you want me to do update it everytime someone logs on?

Nice skim read, the majority of my post was about RL economy, only if I remember the first line about in game economy, but oh well.

It would be nice if they are listening to players if they would let the players know that. The RSOF had at least 100k posts about this update, the only thing they did was to make a post to get people to stop posting everywhere, that post alone has 40k+. They say at the begining of that post that they are listening, but 2 days have passed. I dont expect them to make changes straight away, but surely one of their 300 staff could mention somewhere on the site that they understand people have grievences and they will try and do something about it? not much to ask. Back when fatigue was introduced Jagex was tiny compared to it's current form, it's understandable that they could have overlooked something as simple as people being annoyed having to walk so far for sleep. As a PKer I used to love fatigue, if you logged out at 100% fatigue, you wouldn't have to worry about getting def exp if anything attacked you when you logged in, or if you forgot to change styles. But so many staff didnt realise that people wouldnt be unhappy that there was no way of 1v1 PKing anymore. I very much doubt this will be fixed, because it is too silly to be an oversight, if it is an oversight, they need new heads of department. Of course they realised. But they made the change anway calculating losses against future new player gains.

I don't understand how they risked losing everything? The market is pretty stable bots or not. I don't agree with RWT, but every market has a saturation point, only so many people are going to buy RS gold, there could only ever have been a certain amount of bots to players. If there were too many gold sellers, there would have been no profit, the market in that way is like the old fox > rabbit stories. It's not like it could ever have gotten to a stage where bots outnumbered real players. They have 300 staff and the former CEO of paypal working for them, I bet they make a pretty profit. They are and have been hiring staff constantly for a long period, a company in trouble wouldn't be doing that. Why if they are so good at detecting what these bots do and who they trade with as they say they are, why are they even banning the bots? Ban the buyers. Just have a daily counter on the front page showing how many players have been banned that day for buying gold, if they can see where the money is going that easily. People buy gold because they know they can get away with it, if they thought they couldn't they wouldnt buy it, the bots risk nothing the players risk their accounts. They've admitted they knew this update would upset people, yet they still went ahead and made it.. a war on RWT or a war on the fact someone else is making money from their game. As they said other games manage to deal with gold trading and most even make a profit out of it. But they don't want to do that. Why? Because people other than them would still sell the gold.. they wouldnt make all the profit, so instead they ruin the game for a large percntage of their players. As I said I don't agree with RWT, but they say they are so good at detecting the destination of this GP. Then ban the buyers, without buyers there will be no sellers. I will support Jagex's fight against RWT if they supported their paying customers. I hope they do some changes, not many just a few are needed, It would be totally unacceptable for any other company to not even acknowledge 40k complaints.

As a PKer I have to agree, but they have been to clever not to introduce all of these updates at once. They knew that not too many people would complain when they limited duels to 3k, because not many people are duellers They knew that when they eliminated solo PKing that only a small percentage (40k+ replies to the update thread on RSOF) would complain. They knew that only merch's would complain about the G.E update. Put those 3 groups together and it is more than a small minority, people who have played the game for many years have just had the game they play taken away from them. Of course if you play the game a certain way, your friends list is likely to be representative of the way you play, which is why I said that my friends list is unlikely to be representative because I'm a PKer. I don't see how the 3 groups together can be called " a small minority making a lot of noise" The January update is the one that is likely to affec the largest group. I probably wont quit as I do other stuff occasionally other than PK, but I spend 80% of my time in the wild and that is not a huge amount as if I'd play a lot, 6 years even in the wild would be all 99 combat stats if I'd played just 1 or 2 hours a day, my relatively small amount of time on RS will however drop, to such an extent where I am questioning the point of being a subscriber.

I'm not really sure I understand the people that refuse to see a clear number difference, I initially made the post to find out if there actually was a difference, there is that is fairly conclusive, at the low point there is a 20k drop in players. The reason for this maybe totally due to bots, or it maybe down to players quitting or it may just be down to weather, those are all debatable, but the fact that their is a drop at all is not debatable.. there is a cleear and distinct drop of numbers online at the low point, clear is very clearly 1/3rd down. As I have said a few times, I don't really want this to be a topic about if the update was right or wrong, it was initially to decide if the fact numbers were down was a fact.. now it is obviously fact.. now people are talking about why that is the case. In my view probably 50/50 bots / PKers not playing. Vincent please describe how the 2 lines on this image are not a drop. btw the lines are 20k apart