TheAncient

Nothing more to say than that you should propably report it as a bug. At least for slayer, it doesn't make a big differance because the 10 hours isn't true anyway. I also think that it's a bug. I've never heard of this before, and I'm sure people would have whined about it... but then again I don't have any experience with chaotics yet. The numbers are to an extent arbitrary, but if you assume that the DPS calculator works then it's a fairly good approximation. Yes, veng is a large downside to the maul that I didn't account for. Still, there are workarounds for that such as the ones you mentioned, and using it as a pseudo-spec weapon only after your opponent's veng has been taken down. This is really hard to say because we don't know WF defense. But if we assume WF has 0 defense against crush (which isn't entirely true): Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear SS DPS: 91.25 ZS DPS: 87.29 CMaul DPS: 87.5 Now, let's assume WF's have about 100 defense (which is true because we know WF's boost turmoil to 29%. 14% of 100 is about 29% - 15%.). Let's also assume They have about 50 crush defense. I picked 50 because it calibrated the ZS accuracy to be about 95% which is roughly true with experience. Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear; WF has 100 defense level and 50 crush defense bonus SS DPS: 84.5 ZS DPS: 83.6 CMaul DPS: 87.5 (~100% accuracy!) If these assumptions are accurate, then CMaul's DPS is about 5% higher than ZS/SS, which are about the same. It's really arguable whether or not CMaul's DPS is really higher for WF. I can't say for sure, but it definitely isn't an obvious improvement. In reality, since WF doesn't have 0 defense, CMaul's DPS is slightly higher. However, you also have to take into account the death-loss effect (you often don't hit your max hit as a killing blow, wasting time and DPS. this affects slow weapons more than fast weapons). Where can I get the stats for the proposed chaotic weapons :blink: Are you talking about the Dg-specific Prom and Primal gear? Cause those weapons will only be available in Daemonheim and we have no idea of the stats of any Daemonheim foes.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I realize there is another post about this. However, it doesn't discuss the maul as much. Also, I'd like to bring in actual numbers instead of just speculation. Thought this was relevant in light of the DPS calculator I made (see other post on GenDis). It's not entirely accurate but it gives a reasonable estimate for DPS. Before I begin, let's start with some basic intuition about the Dungeoneering weapon choices. These weapons are very acutely balanced, with no clear winner among the three. The best weapon is highly situational. Rapier is fast, but less accurate. It is better for situations in which you hit most of the time. Maul is slow, but accurate and has KO potential. It is better for situations in which you want accuracy or to surprise an opponent with a large hit. The longsword is a balance between the two. LOW-DEFENSE First, let's compare the DPS (damage per second) of the weapons against 0 defense, to get a sense of Low-Defense situations. These values are calculated assuming Turmoil, Ex Str Pots, Max Str, regular strength gear (bandos etc), which is the typical gear when fighting things with low defense (i.e. slayer) CRapier w/ Def: 115 DPS (100% Acc) CLS w/ Def: 100.7 DPS (100% Acc) CMaul: 95.4 DPS (100% Acc) Whip w/ Def: 101.25 DPS (100% Acc) Rapier is the clear winner by roughly 15%. What is surprising is that Cmaul and CLS have comparable DPS. However, CMaul's actual DPS is slightly lower than the DPS listed because of the death-loss effect (you can't hit your max hit when your opponent has less hitpoints than your max hit). Maul and CLS are both worse than whip. MEDIUM-DEFENSE Now, let's consider Medium defense situations. These apply to cases such as dangerous PvP, where most people are wearing rune, or when your opponent is wearing low-defense armor such as Karil's or Ahrim's. I assumed the defense value was around 225, and that the opponent is praying turmoil. Regular and not extreme potions were used for these calculations. Also assume max stats for both players. You are wearing rune and neitiznot. CRapier w/ Shield: 32 DPS (30.8% Acc) CRapier w/ Def: 36.6 DPS (34.36% Acc) CLS w/ Shield: 33 DPS (36.14% Acc) CLS w/ Def: 37 DPS (39.5% Acc) CMaul: 38.95 DPS (43.75% Acc) Whip w/ Shield: 26.82 DPS (28.73% Acc) Whip w/ Def: 30.82 DPS (32.1% Acc) Assuming the results are accurate, CMaul is the winner (marginally) for DPS in dangerous PvP situations. Furthermore, it has the highest variance in its hits, making it a better KO weapon. Of course, these data neglect the 1-hand vs 2-hand benefit of having a shield, which may or may not be neglible in PKing, especially when defenders are annoying to lose and KO potential is the name of the game. Also, I didn't take into account vengeance. Veng is extremely powerful against the CMaul. CLS appears to be about the same DPS as the rapier. However, the CLS is worse for combo's since its speed is a problem (2 eats instead of 1). HIGH-DEFENSE Finally, let's investigate safe PvP situations in which your opponent is tanked out. Let's assume he has maximum stats, extreme pots, turmoil, and tank gear (at ~350 Melee defense). You are also wearing tank gear, and thus non-strength boosting gear. You have turmoil and extremes. CRapier w/ Shield: 23.7 DPS (21.4% Acc) CRapier w/ Def: 26.15 DPS (23.8% Acc) CLS w/ Shield: 24.4 DPS (25.0% Acc) CLS w/ Def: 26.44 DPS (27.4% Acc) CMaul: 27.9 DPS (30.35% Acc) Whip w/ Shield: 19.87 DPS (47.7% Acc) Whip w/ Def: 22.00 DPS (22.3% Acc)) CMaul comes out as a winner, but again only marginally, and the cost of losing the shield slot which is more important in safe PvP (because that's where you see Spirit shields and DFS's). CLS appears to be about the same DPS as the rapier. However, the CLS is much worse for KOing due to its speed (2 eats instead of 1). I would say CLS is slightly better for hybriding if you switch often. SITUATION-SPECIFIC WATERFIENDS [hide] This is really hard to say because we don't know WF defense. But if we assume WF has 0 defense against crush (which isn't entirely true): Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear SS DPS: 91.25 ZS DPS: 87.29 CMaul DPS: 87.5 Now, let's assume WF's have about 100 defense (which is true because we know WF's boost turmoil to 29%. 14% of 100 is about 29% - 15%.). Let's also assume They have about 50 crush defense. I picked 50 because it calibrated the ZS accuracy to be about 95% which is roughly true with experience. Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear; WF has 100 defense level and 50 crush defense bonus SS DPS: 84.5 ZS DPS: 83.6 CMaul DPS: 87.5 (~100% accuracy!) If these assumptions are accurate, then CMaul's DPS is about 5% higher than ZS/SS, which are about the same. It's really arguable whether or not CMaul's DPS is really higher for WF. I can't say for sure, but it definitely isn't an obvious improvement. In reality, since WF doesn't have 0 defense, CMaul's DPS is slightly higher. However, you also have to take into account the death-loss effect (you often don't hit your max hit as a killing blow, wasting time and DPS. this affects slow weapons more than fast weapons). [/hide] BOSS HUNTING [hide] From the Medium Defense Numbers: CRapier w/ Shield: 32 DPS (30.8% Acc) CRapier w/ Def: 36.6 DPS (34.36% Acc) CLS w/ Shield: 33 DPS (36.14% Acc) CLS w/ Def: 37 DPS (39.5% Acc) CMaul: 38.95 DPS (43.75% Acc) Whip w/ Shield: 26.82 DPS (28.73% Acc) Whip w/ Def: 30.82 DPS (32.1% Acc) A note can be made here about PvM. Examine the accuracy values. They are, on a rough estimate, about the same (if not, slightly less) the accuracy against Graardor and Kril. It is hard to say for sure the exact rank order against these bosses, since exact defense values for them are unknown. Either way, all of them are better than whip and approximately the same. Against TD's, the DPS rank is also more or less the same, but marginally, Rapier > Long > Maul. Rapier is best in this situation because the TD's defense is so low (assumed 70% accuracy of Rapier - 85% accuracy of maul). However, your weapon of choice should depend on play style. The main concern against TD's is the lag time between switching attacks. This lag time slows down faster weapons more than slower weapons, since switching with a slow weapon doesn't require as quick reaction times and thus involves less lag. Because of this lag, Thus, if you want to take your time and not have to switch as often and as quickly, but sacrifice some DPS, I'd go with the Maul. For balance, go with Long. For maximum DPS (but only marginally), go with Rapier.[/hide] CONCLUSIONS The best weapon is SITUATIONAL. No weapon is the best in all contexts. You must decide which context fits best for you. This was our original intuition, and the calculations support this. For Slayer/Training: Rapier is ~15% better than Whip, CLS, or Maul. Whip is marginally better than CLS is marginally better than maul. For PKing(Med-Def): Maul is the best, by about 5%. Rapier and CLS are about the same. Whip is worst. For Safe PvP(High-Def): Maul is the best, by about 5%, at the cost of losing shield slot. Rapier and CLS are about the same. Whip is worst. For PvM (GWD): CLS, Maul, and CR are roughly the same. They are all better than the whip. For PvM (TD's): Depends on playstyle and willingness to switch weapons quickly. Rapier is the best for raw DPS (marginally), but may be impractical due to switches. Longsword is the best balance. For PvM (WF's): No clear winner, among ZS, SS, and CMaul. General Rank Order (for PvPers): Maul > Rapier >= CLS. DEPENDS ON WHAT PVP YOU DO. General Rank Order (for MHers): No clear winner. General Rank Order (for Training): Rapier is clearly the best. Suggestion for General Use: First, Rapier. Second, Maul. Third (if at all) CLS. These calculations are not 100% correct. These conclusions may be invalid should my DPS calculator (which is explained in another post) be highly inaccurate.

That's exactly what I meant earlier. I think it'd be useful to do, too. We could get more or less conclusive evidence as to which weapons we should be using. I used to have a program that records accuracy, but it was on my old computer which crashed. I could write it again, but I've forgotten most of my Java and would prefer not to.

Actually, all you need is basic algebra, and the ability to calculate the area of triangles/rectangles ;) I explained it in a previous thread: but it boils down to this your accuracy is the area of the red triangle, divided by the area of the red triangle + the area of the blue shape the length of one edge(not hypotenuse) of the red triangle is approximately equal to your max accuracy. The length of the longest edge of the blue shape is approximately equal to the target's max defense. ^ This. My formula is a little bit convoluted, and requires extra calculations, but arrives at the same conclusion.

1) Can you have more than 1 at a time? 2) What drops effigys most often?

Grimy and I discussed this in game, and our basic consensus was that it's hard to say anything for sure because we don't know to what precision jagex calculates the maximum damage values. Hence, for negligible effects such as berserker ring vs warrior ring, we still can't say with certainty which one is better. I agree with this for the most part. Anyway, for Grimy's curiosity: Equivalent Strength Level = (Strength level with potions) + (fight style boost) + (Base Strength Level * (Percent Boost from Prayer) Strength Multiplier = (Strength Bonus) * 0.00175 + 0.1 Max hit = 10*((Equivalent Strength Level * Strength Multiplier) + 1.05), rounded down to the nearest integer.

Yes, I agree that it can't exactly find DPS against monsters, since you don't know their maximum defense values. But if you spend the time to record an approximate accuracy against a monster using the same set of gear each time, you can approximate the monster's maximum defense value. I agree with you about DPS against players in that it doesn't perfectly simulate a real match. It doesn't even incorporate eating time, which is a vital part of who wins fights. However, it's still useful to have a general sense of the DPS of a weapon against a certain kind of defense. It isn't predictive, but it can give you a relative rank order for how effective your setup is. To your first statements; b- I used Jard Y Dooku's max hit calc, which according to him is the most accurate max hit formula so far. c- I can upload the workbook as a MS Excel file, not Googledoc. To your comments; a- Right now I am treating equal rolls in favor of the attacker. I really think this is negligible, because of the damage*10 update. The chance that an attacker and defender get the same value is pretty small if you're dealing with max hits in the 500-1000 damage range. (About 1/500 chance) b- I would guess that it's a 10X resolution (or even higher). I doubt they have rounding on their max hit values. From a coding perspective, it only requires changing data types away from using an int. Hm. How did you get this? + How do you know the minimum roll value is nonzero?

I've recently heard of a plausible mechanism for how Runescape determines your melee accuracy against monsters. I'm not sure whether or not the theory has sufficient evidence backing it up, but the values I'm getting from it seem to be consistent with experience. The theory says that the game calculates "Maximum Hit Values" from your Attack Bonus, Attack Level and Boosts using the same equation that it uses to calculates your maximum hit from your Strength Bonus, Strength Level and Boosts. Call this number "X". It also calculates a "Maximum Hit Value" from your opponent's Defense Bonus, Defense Level and Boosts using the maximum hit formula too. Call this number "Y". It then takes a random number generated from the interval (0 to X) and a random number generated from the interval (0 to Y). If the random value from the (0 to X) interval is larger than the random value from the interval (0 to Y), then your attack hits. In simple terms, the game calculates a value for "damage" using your Attack Bonus and Levels, and a value for "damage" using your opponent's Defense Bonus and Levels, and then compares the two. If your "attack damage value" is higher than your opponent's "defense damage value", then the attack hits. What is really convenient about this theory is that maximum hit formulas are known to a high degree of accuracy already. Using some basic math, it is therefore possible to calculate expected accuracies. I have written an Excel program that does exactly this. I will not release it yet, because I still want to do more extensive research with it and want to tinker with it. But here's an explanation of how it works. In order to understand it, you also have to understand how the game calculates your max hit. It does by calculating an "equivalent level" of your strength after prayer and pot boosts, and an "equivalent bonus" of your strength equipment. It then multiples the two to find a max hit. Assumptions: -- Damage values are random values sampled from a uniform distribution on the interval (0, max hit) -- Jard Y Dooku's Max hit formula is accurate What the Excel sheet does: -- Input relevant levels and equipment bonuses for you and your opponent. -- Calculate the "equivalent level" for your attack, and your opponent's defense. + + + Formula: Equivalent Level = Potted Level + Attack Style + (Base Level * (1+0.01*Prayer Boost) - Base Level). Taken from Jard Y Dooku's Max hit calculator. -- Calculate the "equivalent bonus" for your attack and strength, and your opponent's defense. + + + Formula: Equivalent Bonus = 0.00175*Bonus + 0.1 -- Calculate the maximum "attack damage value" and "defense damage value". + + + Formula: Max Hit = floor(EL * EB * 10) -- Calculate the probability that a random value sampled from a uniform distribution on the interval (0, max attack damage value) is greater than a random value sampled from a uniform distribution on the interval (0, max defense damage value). + + + Formula: [hide] This may require some knowledge in introductory college Probability. Let n = "maximum attack damage value" Let m = "maximum defense damage value" Let X be a random value (RV) sampled from the uniform distribution on the interval (0, n). Let Y be a random value (RV) sampled from the uniform distribution on the interval (0, m). Find P(X>Y). P(X>Y) = for all i, P(X = a) * P(Y<a) = sum(1/n*a/m) for a = 0:n = n/(2m) using the formula for the sum of an arithmetic series [/hide] -- The above probability is your accuracy. What we can take from all of this convoluted math is a new potential way to calculate DPS of weapons and equipment, and what gear is best in each situation. This is what I will be doing soon, after I have made sure the formula works. Here are some sample accuracy values: Assume 99 Attack, and 99 Defense, OL and turmoil on both players. 1) Attacker has 120 Att bonus. Defender has 500 Def bonus. Acc = 16% 2) Attacker has 120 Att bonus. Defender has 250 Def bonus. Acc = 28% Assume 99 Attack, OL, turmoil for attacker; 70 Defense, Super Def, piety for defender. 3) Attacker has 120 Att bonus. Defender has 250 Def bonus. Acc = 45% 4) Attacker has 155 Att bonus. Defender has 150 Def bonus. Acc = 80% What I'd like to hear are things I can do to improve the formula (including the validity of it), what you'd like to be calculated from the formula (I'll be comparing all of the Chaotic weapons as one example), or any other comments. Here's the file. As far as I know, my computer is virus-free. And I'm a pretty trustworthy source if I say so myself \:D/ http://www.mediafire.com/?yhwnvjcjhzn :grin:

I am considering writing and mailing a letter of complaint to Jagex. I might post what I write so people can copy, print, and paste, and then send to Jagex too. I might be overreacting, but I just find it really appalling how Jagex has treated this whole situation. If anyone else wants to send Jagex mail: Jagex Ltd. St. John's Innovation Centre Cowley Road Cambridge CB4 0WS United Kingdom Postage only costs about a dollar.

Wow. So not only did Jagex F up the game, they're also treating their player base like [cabbage], for lack of a better word.

Sometimes I wonder why I'm not playing Wow or Cod4

^+1 Very true :thumbup: Tip's staff is awesome.

In all honest, RSWiki > all in terms of usability. Just pop in a search term and out comes a good answer. Runehq/tip help sites are mostly useful for item database / calculator functions.

Still deciding <_< The last round I did was terrible... Dg'ers have been getting worse. I repeated " Don't end the level yet, we have rooms to do " 4 times. Some kid says "Oh end it? end it?" and ends it. Almost missed 200K cause of the terrible bonus room %... not really a big deal, but I can't put up with stupid people.

Any speculations on if DgBatch2 will have even better goodies to spend tokens on? I'm near 200K now and am still in a rut as to if I should wait, get CR, or get CLS.

All today: 80 Dg (This is a pro fake. Leveling part is real, everything else I faked!) 99 Magic

Yet magic completely destroys range, obviously a problem there. Pure mage vs pure range I'm pretty sure range will win. Mage/range Hyb vs pure range I'm pretty sure Hyb will win.

*CR. <_<

IT'S UNDER 9000!!!! OT: I am looking to eventually get a Divine/Ely. What are my best options? -- Earn enough cash to straight up buy the street value of Div/Ely (I can make 4-5M/hr) -- Play with / Merch stuff until I have enough anti-junk to buy -- Do Corp (I'd rather not - if I don't get a Div/Ely Sigil I'll have wasted many hours in which I could have earned enough money)

Exactly what I was thinking, but what is really important is whether a godsword is better than a rapier at tds for anyone who will most likely only get one barring some major structural changes...like me. In my experience, Whip = GS at TD's. I've had a long history of killing TD's with both and the killrate is about the same. Whip is just more APM intensive. I think it'd be safe to assume GR > GS at TD's.

Convenience of SS FAR outweighs the accuracy bonus that piety gives.

I was getting 15 a trip with Tortoise/Titan

Dang. Now my question is if I should get maul or rapier first if I'm doing 99 summ. I might never use a maul other than for wf...

You don't need to alch all 125. Just alch 60-70 and it should be enough. I think you can go down to 0 but I wouldn't risk it.

Torags + DFS + other tank gear Divine doesn't contribute to damage Vesta's bonuses arent THAT large