Global Warming. Whats your opinion?

[Rebdragon]

Let's see your evidence for why Global Warming is caused primarily by humans, besides "I saw an Inconvenient Truth! OMGZORZ!"

 

 

 

 

Thank you. It just seemed like all he did was watch the Inconvient Truth, look at no other data, and assume that Gore HAD to be right. Sorry, but when people make blind assumptions it just kind of annoys me.

 

 

 

Just wondering, what's the source of that graph?

 

 

 

I have a rebuttal, I suppose, but I don't want to drag this on too much; I pretty much agree with the past decision on this thread that if leading scientist can't figure out what the truth is, us posting random graphs isn't going to do us any good.

 

 

 

Anyways....:

 

 

 

Two Sides to Global Warming

 

Is it proven fact, or just conventional wisdom?

 

 

 

Ronald Bailey has a very balanced piece on global warming in Reason. Long on detail; short on hysteria.

 

 

 

With so many researchers in the climatological community apparently convinced of the reality of dangerously rapid man-made climate change, why do I continue to rely so much on the skeptical Christy? Christy is the climatologist who has put together the highly accurate atmospheric temperature data from satellites since 1978. And confidence in his data is bolstered by the fact that they correlate nicely with temperature data from radiosondes, which are a completely independent measure of temperature. Christy's data show that since 1978 the planet is warming up at a rate of 0.08 degrees Celsius per decade. The Arctic, according to Christy's data, is indeed warming faster than the rest of the planet, at a rate of 0.39 per decade. But the Antarctic is cooling by 0.12 degrees Celsius per decade.

 

 

 

For the nationalistic, Christy's satellite data find that the lower 48 states of the U.S. are warming at a rate of 0.07 degrees per decade. If temperatures continue to increase by 0.08 degrees Celsius per decade, the planet will warm by 0.8 degrees Celsius by the end of the century. That compares to an increase of 0.6 degrees Celsius during the 20th century. Not much of a crisis. Richard Lindzen says he's willing to take bets that global average temperatures in 20 years will in fact be lower than they are now.

 

Ya, the data's a little recent, but that just shows why it's so hard for scientists to find the truth #-o .

[warri0r45]

So before you go on about how it is humans fault and we are the only thing responsible for this warming of the globe, tell me how it will be accomplished without having dramatic impacts on our economy and the worlds economy. This issue is more than whether or not we should clean up our act, because if we could, it would not hurt. But honestly, I do not see how it is possible.

 

 

 

 

Firstly we're not exactly talking about solutions to the problem as some people are still skeptical of the problem at all. I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about solution, though. Clean coal technology and carbon sequestering come to mind although there aren't any methods I'm aware of that take existing CO2 out of the atmosphere. As for your comments on reducing emissions harming economies, you do have a point however you need to look at the bigger picture. Think of the billions in the anti-pollution or 'green' market when everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Think of the mass devistion due to climate shifts predicted. Think of countries like mine (Australia) that are literally drying up.

 

 

 

As far as I can see the only reason why these green technologies aren't widespread is that governments are greedy for the money rich fossil fuel industries so they can flaunt thier growing economy to the less intelligent masses.

[beniscool218]

 

It just seemed like all he did was watch the Inconvient Truth, look at no other data, and assume that Gore HAD to be right. Sorry, but when people make blind assumptions it just kind of annoys me.

 

 

 

 

I realize I stated that I wouldn't post on this thread again, but this just "erks" me a little too much. In absolutely no way did I make a blind assumption that Al Gore had to be right, and in no way did I rely on the information in the movie to present my argument. In fact, most of my argument was based upon scientific fact on the cause of global warming. And about your comments of being omniscient; please, did you even read most of the other posts on this thread? Really; it seemed like these people were pulling these explanations out of their rears. I realize it was condescending but I was just annoyed by the lack of correct information being used in each arguments. I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone, it was purely for the sake of argument.

[warri0r45]

 

It just seemed like all he did was watch the Inconvient Truth, look at no other data, and assume that Gore HAD to be right. Sorry, but when people make blind assumptions it just kind of annoys me.

 

 

 

 

I realize I stated that I wouldn't post on this thread again, but this just "erks" me a little too much. In absolutely no way did I make a blind assumption that Al Gore had to be right, and in no way did I rely on the information in the movie to present my argument. In fact, most of my argument was based upon scientific fact on the cause of global warming. And about your comments of being omniscient; please, did you even read most of the other posts on this thread? Really; it seemed like these people were pulling these explanations out of their rears. I realize it was condescending but I was just annoyed by the lack of correct information being used in each arguments. I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone, it was purely for the sake of argument.

 

 

 

So when I responded to you a few posts up, was I doing that or were you? I'm happy to be corrected if needed.

[beniscool218]

 

It just seemed like all he did was watch the Inconvient Truth, look at no other data, and assume that Gore HAD to be right. Sorry, but when people make blind assumptions it just kind of annoys me.

 

 

 

 

I realize I stated that I wouldn't post on this thread again, but this just "erks" me a little too much. In absolutely no way did I make a blind assumption that Al Gore had to be right, and in no way did I rely on the information in the movie to present my argument. In fact, most of my argument was based upon scientific fact on the cause of global warming. And about your comments of being omniscient; please, did you even read most of the other posts on this thread? Really; it seemed like these people were pulling these explanations out of their rears. I realize it was condescending but I was just annoyed by the lack of correct information being used in each arguments. I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone, it was purely for the sake of argument.

 

 

 

So when I responded to you a few posts up, was I doing that or were you? I'm happy to be corrected if needed.

 

 

 

No no, not you. Your explanation was definitely valid. I'm talking about the people who believe there is no problem or that Co2 is sucking out the atmosphere, or that it's all just a big government conspiracy.

[warri0r45]

 

It just seemed like all he did was watch the Inconvient Truth, look at no other data, and assume that Gore HAD to be right. Sorry, but when people make blind assumptions it just kind of annoys me.

 

 

 

 

I realize I stated that I wouldn't post on this thread again, but this just "erks" me a little too much. In absolutely no way did I make a blind assumption that Al Gore had to be right, and in no way did I rely on the information in the movie to present my argument. In fact, most of my argument was based upon scientific fact on the cause of global warming. And about your comments of being omniscient; please, did you even read most of the other posts on this thread? Really; it seemed like these people were pulling these explanations out of their rears. I realize it was condescending but I was just annoyed by the lack of correct information being used in each arguments. I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone, it was purely for the sake of argument.

 

 

 

So when I responded to you a few posts up, was I doing that or were you? I'm happy to be corrected if needed.

 

 

 

No no, not you. Your explanation was definitely valid. I'm talking about the people who believe there is no problem or that Co2 is sucking out the atmosphere, or that it's all just a big government conspiracy.

 

 

 

It just seemed to me that you're explanation for what global warming is was actually explaining ozone depletion. Or did I miss something?

[Sumpta]

I've said it before, but then again, repeating yourself seems to be popular in this kind of thread anyway, so I'll say it again :lol:.

 

For heaven's sakes, wake up! We're running out of oil, we're wasting loads of energy, we're polluting and draining the earth we live on. It's very charming to whine about the scientific truth of global warming, but don't be fooled, it's putting your head in the sand. We just can't sustain the way we live anymore. Too bad. Now's the time to look for solutions and change things, not arguing over things that -quite frankly- are above our heads anyway (unless there are qualified climate experts on this board, which I highly doubt).

[Ghost-Knigth]

The world is heating up for sure. No doubt about that. But then we must see what can be done to prevent the current, massive leak of CO2.

 

 

 

You are mentioning "An Inconvinient Truth". For me that documentary/film is a propaganda for Al Gore. Nothing more. Yes, he has some facts that might be true but I believe that he only dealing with that subject to increase his popularity all over the world. Because, of course it's the perfect subject to deal with if you wanna solve it. Still, good that the subject is being lightened upon.

[warri0r45]

I've said it before, but then again, repeating yourself seems to be popular in this kind of thread anyway, so I'll say it again :lol:.

 

For heaven's sakes, wake up! We're running out of oil, we're wasting loads of energy, we're polluting and draining the earth we live on. It's very charming to whine about the scientific truth of global warming, but don't be fooled, it's putting your head in the sand. We just can't sustain the way we live anymore. Too bad. Now's the time to look for solutions and change things, not arguing over things that -quite frankly- are above our heads anyway (unless there are qualified climate experts on this board, which I highly doubt).

 

 

 

Don't worry sumpta, I agree and it needs to be droned into everyone on this planet until we wake up to ourselves. Unfortunately, the jingling and folding stuff seems to block peoples ears, eyes ad the reasoning part of thier brain. :wall:

[Dalcyte]

Just wondering, what's the source of that graph?

 

 

 

It's from this, it seemed pretty refutable, as it was based off findings from this one guy, and i think the guy who found the...findings, made the graph.

 

 

 

http://www.mng.org.uk/gh/threat/threat6.htm

 

 

 

 

 

I think you're right to an extent reb, its just too hard to tell at this current time, because its all so recent. To be sure, we need a lot more years of evidence and data. But unfortunately, if it is real, we don't necessarly have all that time :?

 

 

 

Anyway, i'm defiently leaning towards yes, there is a problem, because of that 95% [bleep]e in the ocean temperatures, with no other cause but human influence.

[captindeath]

Warrior, my point on why someone whould come up with solutions is that if people want something to happen, they need to think of some ways to come to a solution. It is great that we are talking about lowering polution emissions, etc, but what does that do for us. Also, there may be an entire industry that would balance the economy if everyone jumped on the bandwagon, but these just wont because it has already been tried.

 

 

 

Daclyte, the Earth has been warming and cooling since it was formed. Whether we stop burning all oil and stop cutting down treesand things of this nature, will not matter. We know that there was an ice age prior to human domination of the Earth, and it was warming before that and no matter what we do now, the Earth will cool off againand warm up. At one point the earth was a fiery mass in space, and also the earth was a complete ice ball. I dont see how people put the responsibilty on humans when there is scientific data that shows that the earth has been warming and cooling (much greater temperature differences than we know today) forever and it will not stop whether we burn everything at once or never burn anything again.

 

 

 

Nature has always strived for equilibrium. You see it in the food chain, you see it chemical reaction, and not only do you see this in nature but you see it economics and now people are noticing it in weather. Except people do not realize that it is natural for the Earth to warm and cool Nature is constantly striving to reach the point where everything is in balance. This day is far into the future, probably farther than what the human race will live through.

 

 

 

You can not really blame humans for this because we have no data from beyond what we have collected in what, the last 50 years, 100 years maybe? The earth has been around for billions of years, now is that enough data to say that we are the cusp of the worst change in climate history. Maybe our brief history of existence, but it is hard to say that we are the cuase of this and that if we stop polluting and emitting that everything will go back to how we knew it.

 

 

 

I am not saying we should not cut down on emissions and pollution, because we do affect the environment negatively in some ways (such as killing animals polluting streams, oceans, and landfills are a nasty thing), but I do not think it will have an effect on the climate, especially one that most people are looking for.

 

 

 

The Earth is changing place and it has been changing for much longer than we have occupied it and what makes people think that whatever we do will change that.

[Dalcyte]

Daclyte, the Earth has been warming and cooling since it was formed. Whether we stop burning all oil and stop cutting down treesand things of this nature, will not matter. We know that there was an ice age prior to human domination of the Earth, and it was warming before that and no matter what we do now, the Earth will cool off againand warm up. At one point the earth was a fiery mass in space, and also the earth was a complete ice ball. I dont see how people put the responsibilty on humans when there is scientific data that shows that the earth has been warming and cooling (much greater temperature differences than we know today) forever and it will not stop whether we burn everything at once or never burn anything again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Um, did you just not see what i posted a bit ago? It's down below.

 

 

 

 

Lead researchers Tim Barnett and David Pierce used a combination of computer models and real-world "observed" data to capture signals of warming in the oceans caused by greenhouse gases...For the study, warming in the world's oceans was measured over the last 40 years. In all the ocean basins, the warming signal found in the upper 700 metres predicted by the models corresponded to the measurements obtained at sea with confidence exceeding 95%...Efforts to explain the ocean changes through naturally occurring variations in the climate or external forces, such as solar or volcanic factors, did not come close to reproducing the observed warming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you're completely right, but also completely wrong. You seem to believe that the earth fluctuates in terms of temperature and such, going through periods of cold and warmth. That is 100% true, and data supports that. You don't seem to be getting that an abnormal [bleep]e jutting out of the graph, well..isn't normal. a 95% increase in water temperature, with NO OTHER CAUSES OF HEATING BESIDES US, isn't "normal". Cutting down trees makes all the difference! Burning oil makes all the difference! Do you know what trees do? Photosynthesis! Do you know what burning oil does? Makes CO2!

 

 

 

Here's the equation for photosynthesis in case you don't know.

 

 

 

6CO2 + 6H20 + Sunlight --yields--> C6H12O6(glucose) + 6O2.

 

 

 

Take a look at that first part. that 6 carbon dioxide molecules being used up. Guess what happens when trees get cut down. They die and can't do that anymore, thus a buildup of CO2. Now, that would be bad, but as long as there's no huge increase in CO2 being created, it won't be a big issue. Now wait a second....we ARE burning oil that makes CO2...so we got a build up then. Now, with that build up of CO2, we've got global warming there, and i'm not gonna go into the details of that. Can you provide proof for when you say:

 

 

 

I dont see how people put the responsibilty on humans when there is scientific data that shows that the earth has been warming and cooling (much greater temperature differences than we know today) forever and it will not stop whether we burn everything at once or never burn anything again.

 

 

 

 

For the thing you said a while ago about how people can believe there is global warming, when there isn't a good solution, right?

 

 

 

Problems don't need to have solutions to be problems. This problem does have a solution, its just one that we can't do at our current economic standpoint. That doesn't make it less of a problem. All the same, i think taking the attitude of "what do i care, one person isn't gonna make a difference", its the same with voting right? One doesn't do much, but a lot do. Maybe you can't or won't choose to vote, but still, one person, plus another, plus another so on, WILL make a difference.

[Led-Zeppelin]

It's just something that happens naturally. We've gone through periods of extreme low (ice age anyone) and warm periods. And CO2 isn't the main culprit. It is actually water vapour. Thats what I learned back at school anyway..

 

 

 

And alot of it is media hype, they tell you all about the extreme highs. But what about the extreme lows everyone is having. Isn't the US having one of the coldest winters on record at the moment? Or some country is lol.

 

 

 

It's extremes in weather, not just 'warming'.

[hellbellz]

It's just something that happens naturally. We've gone through periods of extreme low (ice age anyone) and warm periods. And CO2 isn't the main culprit. It is actually water vapour. Thats what I learned back at school anyway..

 

 

 

And alot of it is media hype, they tell you all about the extreme highs. But what about the extreme lows everyone is having. Isn't the US having one of the coldest winters on record at the moment? Or some country is lol.

 

 

 

It's extremes in weather, not just 'warming'.

Exactly.

 

 

 

I've seen on the news about crap how "Global Warming" is making the weather unusual the past couple of years. Bull, if you averaged out the weather temperatures I'm sure they're the average temperature of that day, week, month, etc.

 

 

 

I'm sure that humans don't play a big role in "Global Warming".

[Agunimon979]

We will never, EVER run out of oil, because if I'm correct, when skeletons decompose the skeleton turns to oil. So we just all have a die and bury ourselves in the ground! yeyyy liberals

[hellbellz]

We will never, EVER run out of oil, because if I'm correct, when skeletons decompose the skeleton turns to oil. So we just all have a die and bury ourselves in the ground! yeyyy liberals

Well we can use more than it's being created. It takes millions of years to make.

 

 

 

It's not just skeletons, it's anything that was living, which is then decomposed, pressure and heat compact it, and it eventually turns into oil. (something like that).

[Dalcyte]

Again, my graph. it's not little dips or anything...its not "normal" fluctuation, that [bleep]e...isn't exactly "normal"

 

 

 

This is seriously just not looking like your basic trend that happens.

 

 

 

See temperature graphs fluctuate, they [bleep]e up and down through different years. Some years, we'll have very high temperatures, the next year, we may drop multiple degrees. It's all part of earth's cycle. But! What 'we're seeing with the more recent 21st century and late 20th century years, is not large [bleep]es in the graphs, we're seeing the whole thing move up, [bleep]es and lows and all. So basically, we're seeing the lows like the US did in spring, which is perfectly normal. But we're seeing it at a very high point, a higher point than normal. Basically, the graphs look like this. This one from the Goddard Institute for Space Sciences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, i love that water vapor theory. Now, water vapor is a crucial greenhouse gas that regulates global climate. Water vapor is simply evaporated water, right? Yep. Now, we've had water around for a while, and its a pretty constant regulator. Things fluctuate, heat goes up, evaporation goes up, temp goes up more and vice versa. Now, guess what happens when we release other greenhouse gases from human causes, like....CO2? Things get hotter :?

 

 

 

When the temperature gets hotter, water evaporates. More water vapor, more global warming. Humans, again, the culprit.

[warri0r45]

It's just something that happens naturally. We've gone through periods of extreme low (ice age anyone) and warm periods. And CO2 isn't the main culprit. It is actually water vapour. Thats what I learned back at school anyway..

 

 

 

And alot of it is media hype, they tell you all about the extreme highs. But what about the extreme lows everyone is having. Isn't the US having one of the coldest winters on record at the moment? Or some country is lol.

 

 

 

It's extremes in weather, not just 'warming'.

 

 

 

You're right, but then why do people constantly talk about CO2? The answer is because it's the only one with a significant net increase in recent years. And in regards to your skepticism of 'global warming' because some places are having freakish cold snaps, it's all part of the bigger picture - climate change. You can't expect the climate to remain stagnant for all eternity and the recent cold snaps can be factored into global warming if you look at broader data, i.e. average temperature of the planet, not just a localised area.

[captindeath]

Daclyte on your graph, even a thousand years is not that significant. That represents .0000002% of earths life span. Give me a graph of of 50%, heck even 25% of Earths life span, then we can talk about trends in climate. 2.222222x10^-7 is not enough data to say there is something abnormal. I will admit, it is extremly abnormal for our data and for how long humans have been occupying Earth, but both you and I know that a small percent of data is not very convincing. I cant prove to you that it has always [bleep]ed like that and you cant prove that it has always been a smooth curve for the majority of Earths existence (unless you find me some data and then I will reconsider my opinion).

[warri0r45]

Daclyte on your graph, even a thousand years is not that significant. That represents .0000002% of earths life span. Give me a graph of of 50%, heck even 25% of Earths life span, then we can talk about trends in climate. 2.222222x10^-7 is not enough data to say there is something abnormal. I will admit, it is extremly abnormal for our data and for how long humans have been occupying Earth, but both you and I know that a small percent of data is not very convincing. I cant prove to you that it has always [bleep]ed like that and you cant prove that it has always been a smooth curve for the majority of Earths existence (unless you find me some data and then I will reconsider my opinion).

 

 

 

Pretty much the point I was going to raise with you. In modern man's short time in existance relative to the billions of years the earth has been here, things are dire for us. That's all that matters - us. The past dosen't matter in fixing the problems we have now. Sure, I'd love to know weather data over the past few billions of years but I'm thinking it's a tad more difficult than looking back in time through the phylogeny of orgaisms or through radioactive decay of some elements in rocks. With the data we have at the moment, it's predicted that things will get dire for us and the weather could threaten our existance. I, for one, would like to cast aside debate as to what causes global warming or if it is natural and at least try. If we don't cover all bases, we've already lost. We're already potentially dead. Well, that's in the broader sense of the debate over the entire world. In this forum scenario, we're not the problem fixers (but you can be! revolt! start a revolution today! :lol: ) so there's nothing wrong with the aformentioned debate.

[captindeath]

Well I have said enough on this topic now and I am getting annoyed with it. Warrior is right and we must do what is best for humans as whole. I could not tell whether or not humans are at fault for global warming or whether or not it is just a trend in climate. I do know it is getting warmer and this could be catestrophic to the human race. But, we are the great inovators right, we will come up with something, especially if it gets to a point where it is really doing some damage. Since a lot of people think it is our fault, they should try and get something changed and like warrior said, we should try something. I have no idea what it is though, but hopefully we find it before its too late.

 

 

 

 

 

The best way to slow human pollution would be to kill about 4 billion of us. That would cut all kinds of fual burning, power plants, cars, etc way down. The only hard part is to decide which 4 billion get to die. Or we could just stop buring or using all fuels for like 50 years or so and see what happens. We could power everything with nuclear power and people could learn to bike again(this could cut down on obesity too). The only thing we would use oil for would be the military. Well heck, we could just sign a treaty stating no more war. Or we could have all of these plans at once and basically eliminate all pollution and we could cool off some.

 

 

 

(that was all sarcasm)

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously, if people think it is their fault, do something. Dont complain how it is our fault and go on and on about. Make a change, move towards your goal. If something of real value was achieved I would probably be happy. Heck, if it is good enough, I would probably follow it myself. But until then, I do not believe it is entirely our fault. Good night, and good luck with finding your answers for the stopping warming of the globe.

[Dalcyte]

Fair enough.

 

 

 

The best way to slow human pollution would be to kill about 4 billion of us

 

 

 

That's the one thing i find intriguing in what you say. This has absolutely nothing to do with global warming, and is a completley side-note on something i have thought about before.

 

 

 

Disease, if you think about it, is nature's way of monitoring a population, right? When a population hits its carrying capacity, factors like disease, predation and other factors will begin to come into play.

 

 

 

Now, humans are freakish. We've long exceeded our carrying capacity, and are completley over-developing land, and have a extremely large and overpopulated species.

 

 

 

Recently, we're seeing a plethera of fatal and terminal disease like cancers and AIDS, that ravage the land. I'm thinking that this is mother nature's way of telling us that we need to get a little smaller in terms of population. We continue to fight and try to find cures to the diseases. My belief now is that...well, that may not be good. We're trying to alter with the elite of diseases here, we're at a point where these massive epidemics and such are bringing us down. That's where evolution has to take its course and have the strongest survive. We're not giving that a chance, but that's a completley separate note.

 

 

 

Back to global warming, this disease ravaging and killing off of 4 billion people would be the best worst thing that humanity has seen in a very long time.

[beniscool218]

Raise your hand if you're depressed.

 

 

 

*Raise Hand*

[Peronix]

Raise your hand if you're depressed.

 

 

 

*Raise Hand*

 

 

 

*Raises Hand* -.-

 

 

 

I find it extremely depressing that we're speeding off into a grim future and the majority of the population is continuing to turn a deaf ear to scientists that proclaim this unpopular message. The population has many times in the past ignored scientists that warned them of looming disasters, and have paid the price for it. This is a price we're not prepared to pay. You'd think that if there was even a remote chance of anything that those scientists were talking about would happen, and that we might be responsible, we would try, even if a little to do something about it... but we're not. Our governments are not. And why not? Because nobody cares.

[Agunimon979]

 

 

 

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Lighting bolts produce more carbon dioxide then any car does. In fact, the last 3 volcanic eruptions have produced more carbon dioxide then any car has in history. And what do I say to that?

 

 

 

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