Homosexuality: Right or Wrong?

[Serpent Eye]

I meant 6:9-10. Whoops.

 

 

 

...Ah.

 

 

 

Well, I'm not going to quote that nonsense :P.

 

 

 

What does "homosexual offender" mean anyways? Does it mean that being homosexual is offensive? Or that you can get away with committing a sin of the flesh, unless you're homosexual, in which case, you'd be punished?

 

 

 

The Bible is very gray when it comes to the more important subjects as these >.<

[obfuscator]

From a religious point of veiw, being gay is not a sin, and has never been called that.

 

 

 

The veiw(of the catholic church at least) is as follows:

 

 

 

Being gay is not a sin.

 

Having sex outside marriage is a sin.

 

The purpose of marriage is to procreate.

 

Since two men can never procreate, they cannot marry.

 

Since they cannot marry, they cannot have sex inside marriage.

 

Since they must have sex outside marriage, the sex is a sin.

[Serpent Eye]

From a religious point of veiw, being gay is not a sin, and has never been called that.

 

 

 

The veiw(of the catholic church at least) is as follows:

 

 

 

Being gay is not a sin.

 

Having sex outside marriage is a sin.

 

The purpose of marriage is to procreate.

 

Since two men can never procreate, they cannot marry.

 

Since they cannot marry, they cannot have sex inside marriage.

 

Since they must have sex outside marriage, the sex is a sin.

 

 

 

So... the fact that you're gay doesn't really matter to the Catholic church? They just... don't want you to be intimate with your lover... as the sex itself is sinful.

 

 

 

That's just as silly as saying being gay is a sin.

[Legosimx]

Yeah honestly as a pretty decent practicing Catholic, I think there is absouletely nothing wrong with being homosexual, for either Gender. Or any of the tid-bits that go along with marriage.

 

 

 

Gays deserve every right that "normal" people do imo.

[obfuscator]

 

 

 

So... the fact that you're gay doesn't really matter to the Catholic church? They just... don't want you to be intimate with your lover... as the sex itself is sinful.

 

 

 

That's just as silly as saying being gay is a sin.

 

 

 

Sex, when done for the right reasons, isn't sinful. The right reason, the first reason, the most basic reason, is to procreate, to give life. If you are having sex without any possibility of that, it is a sin. That goes for straight couple's using contraception as well.

 

 

 

And I don't think it is the same thing. I know several gay people who are deeply in love with their partners, but do not feel it necessary to fulfil their sexual urges to show that love. Being gay gives you a great oportunity, to show your love for someone that isn't, and can't be conditional on how much you enjoy the sex.

[Serpent Eye]

Sex, when done for the right reasons, isn't sinful. The right reason, the first reason, the most basic reason, is to procreate, to give life. If you are having sex without any possibility of that, it is a sin. That goes for straight couple's using contraception as well.

 

 

 

And I don't think it is the same thing. I know several gay people who are deeply in love with their partners, but do not feel it necessary to fulfil their sexual urges to show that love.

 

 

 

I guess I just don't agree that there is a "right" reason to have sex. I'm also not Catholic, so I also don't hold any belief in contraceptives being sinful.

 

 

 

Being gay gives you a great oportunity, to show your love for someone that isn't, and can't be conditional on how much you enjoy the sex.

 

 

 

Can you expand? I'm having trouble sorting out what you're getting at here...

[obfuscator]

 

I guess I just don't agree that there is a "right" reason to have sex. I'm also not Catholic, so I also don't hold any belief in contraceptives being sinful.

 

 

 

Yeah, I understand that. Personally, I don't even believe a lot of that stuff, I am merely trying to clear up some misconceptions people have. And beleive me, I know. (The official teachings anyway)

 

 

 

 

Can you expand? I'm having trouble sorting out what you're getting at here...

 

 

 

Ok.

 

 

 

Basically, you have a relationship.

 

It has many aspects.

 

Personality, circumstance, events, and sex.

 

Those things are what you "love" about someone.

 

Example: You like their jokes, they always have time for you, you have so much fun on a date, and the sex is great.

 

 

 

A major factor that undermines relationships is sex life going bad. If you have ever talked to divorced couples, or been in a relationship that went bad, sex is a huge issue. Basically, if you don't make sex a priority in a relationship, it makes it stronger in the end, because the sex can suck, but you love the person regardless of that.

 

I hate to point to statistics, but there is data that shows that:

 

 

 

A) A large majority of divorced couples have sex before they are married.

 

B) A very small minority of couples who wait until marriage to have sex get divorced.

 

 

 

Now this gets into another debate, really, but basically, if you are gay, and religious (and wanting to follow the teachings of the church), you have a relationship where sex is going to be a sin. Therefore, you have so much more potential to understand and appreciate the person for their other qualities, that the relationship can be very strong. And yes, I know gay people who have this type of relationship. They love each other very much, and manage to show that love and affection without resorting to sex.

 

 

 

I hope that helped explain it a bit more?

[Serpent Eye]

[hide=Quote]

Ok.

 

 

 

Basically, you have a relationship.

 

It has many aspects.

 

Personality, circumstance, events, and sex.

 

Those things are what you "love" about someone.

 

Example: You like their jokes, they always have time for you, you have so much fun on a date, and the sex is great.

 

 

 

A major factor that undermines relationships is sex life going bad. If you have ever talked to divorced couples, or been in a relationship that went bad, sex is a huge issue. Basically, if you don't make sex a priority in a relationship, it makes it stronger in the end, because the sex can suck, but you love the person regardless of that.

 

I hate to point to statistics, but there is data that shows that:

 

 

 

A) A large majority of divorced couples have sex before they are married.

 

B) A very small minority of couples who wait until marriage to have sex get divorced.

 

 

 

Now this gets into another debate, really, but basically, if you are gay, and religious (and wanting to follow the teachings of the church), you have a relationship where sex is going to be a sin. Therefore, you have so much more potential to understand and appreciate the person for their other qualities, that the relationship can be very strong. And yes, I know gay people who have this type of relationship. They love each other very much, and manage to show that love and affection without resorting to sex.

 

 

 

I hope that helped explain it a bit more?

[/hide]

 

 

 

Ah.

 

 

 

Well, yes, it did explain to me what you were saying.

 

 

 

It just... still doesn't make sense to me though.

 

 

 

I think that sex is more often a benefit to a relationship - a lasting relationship, anyways. It helps to deepen the sense of intimacy between two partners.

 

 

 

I think I disagree because your above points are based on the fact that the people in the relationship are religious. As I don't really have any religious beliefs, I don't really see eye-to-eye with what you've brought up.

 

 

 

And as far as statistics go, I'd be interesting to see why the couples actually ended up divorcing - I doubt the couples that had pre-marital sex divorced over anything to do with the actual sex.

 

 

 

Anyways... I don't mean to deviate from the whole point of the OP...

[obfuscator]

Yeah, best to stay on topic. If you want to pm me, I wouldn`t mind continueing the discussion.

[aguz]

I don't promote homosexuality but I tolerate it. The only thing I believe that is wrong is dressing up like a lady. I totally disagree with that. I think it's ok being gay but dressing up like a man.

[Zierro]

I don't promote homosexuality but I tolerate it. The only thing I believe that is wrong is dressing up like a lady. I totally disagree with that. I think it's ok being gay but dressing up like a man.

 

 

 

Do you disagree with it because it's a repulsive site or because of moral purposes?

[aguz]

I find it repulsive and it's disturbing for most people especially little children who don't know things in life.

[Shinjula]

But why shouldnt men have equal clothing right, women get far more interesting clothing options and its completely unfair, as for it being disturbing to children, that only true because its frowned upon, if it wasnt frowned upon kids wouldnt care, thats circular logic.

 

 

 

Many male children dress up as girls at some point in thier childhood, its just experimenting so theres nothing inherently disturbing in it.

[Serpent Eye]

I find it repulsive and it's disturbing for most people especially little children who don't know things in life.

 

 

 

I doubt little kids are disturbed when they see a cross-dresser. At best, they are just inquisitive as to "Why that man is wearing mommy's clothes."

 

 

 

And being gay doesn't mean you enjoy dressing up in women's clothes - I definently don't. And it's unfair to even say that all people who cross-dress are gay. They are two seperate things, really.

[RichieMcD]

I don't promote homosexuality but I tolerate it. The only thing I believe that is wrong is dressing up like a lady. I totally disagree with that. I think it's ok being gay but dressing up like a man.

 

 

 

Ehhh, not every transvestite is gay. Some just get a kick out of it, same can be said for Gays, the vast majority aren't transvestites. Were you thinking of Chris Crocker when you made that post?

[gman019]

I don't promote homosexuality but I tolerate it. The only thing I believe that is wrong is dressing up like a lady. I totally disagree with that. I think it's ok being gay but dressing up like a man.

 

 

 

Not all transvestites are gay, you know. What's the real harm in it?

 

 

 

Your last sentence's structure confuses me. You think it's wrong for a man to dress up like a woman, but it's okay for a woman to dress up like a man?

 

 

 

I find it repulsive and it's disturbing for most people especially little children who don't know things in life.

 

 

 

Since when are children going to gay bars and such to where they can find transvestites? Or, are they looking it up on the internet/seeing it on TV? Then, it is much more their parent's fault for letting them see that.

[user1991]

 

 

 

So... the fact that you're gay doesn't really matter to the Catholic church? They just... don't want you to be intimate with your lover... as the sex itself is sinful.

 

 

 

 

 

That's just as silly as saying being gay is a sin.

 

 

 

Sex, when done for the right reasons, isn't sinful. The right reason, the first reason, the most basic reason, is to procreate, to give life. If you are having sex without any possibility of that, it is a sin. That goes for straight couple's using contraception as well.

 

 

 

And I don't think it is the same thing. I know several gay people who are deeply in love with their partners, but do not feel it necessary to fulfil their sexual urges to show that love. Being gay gives you a great oportunity, to show your love for someone that isn't, and can't be conditional on how much you enjoy the sex.

 

 

 

Okay, here's one for you.

 

 

 

SIN DOESN'T EXIST.

 

 

 

I don't know if you believe what you said or if you're just informing someone of what certain religions say, but let me say it again. SIN - DOES NOT - EXIST. There is no "right" or "wrong" in an objective sense. And sly wizard if you're reading this just stop with your whole "moral relativism is stupid because you can't criticize other cultures without have moral absolutes" etc etc bs because this just isn't true. There is no "right" or "wrong" from God (at least there isn't any evidence for this anyway). And we can criticize other cultures if our own system of morality says that we should not defer from our own system of morality (unless of course the zeitgeist changes over time). For example, if we look at Nazi Germany, we can say, we believe that what you are doing is unacceptable, unfair to millions of people, and we are going to step in and stop this. Of course we aren't going to say that what they did is "wrong" because wrong is a stupid [bleep]ing word and the concept behind it doesn't make sense. If you replace "wrong" with "unacceptable in a world where countries should work together for peace and we should care more about others" then finally, we're getting somewhere. The reason why murder and rape is "wrong" is because we cannot have a stable society if such things were legal. Our morals change over time, you go back a few thousand years and they were murdering humans as a sacrifice to "God". In a world with nuclear weapons we can not afford to let people like Hitler get in power again. This is not because "God said it was wrong".

 

 

 

Anyway, back on the homosexuality topic. Well, I've been reading the website "www.protectmarriage.com" (It would be funny if it wasn't so sad), and I've come to the conclusion that a) *these Christians are AGAIN, full of [cabbage]. B) *these Christians will hide behind children at every opportunity, c) the average IQ of the people on that website must be about 90. As George Carlin said, "people have traditionally hidden behind three things, the Bible, the flag, and children." Where do they get this whole "protect marriage" thing from? What do they mean "protect marriage." They make it sound as if marriage is being attacked. At the core of their reasoning is a hatred for homosexuality. I don't know where they get it from, maybe they were beaten into it by their parents, but I guarantee, if you look you'll find it. Yet they continuously hide behind children (what is the big deal with children knowing about homosexuality? Is this just an American thing..?) I saw a gay couple when I was like 5, and I asked my Dad something about it, and he said, oh, they're gay, which means they are attracted to men and not women (in this case), I was like, oh okay, and went on with my day. NO MENTAL TRAUMA, NO MURDEROUS RAMPAGE, NO RAPE SPREE. What the hell?

 

 

 

ALL of their arguments are bullship. Every single one of them.

 

 

 

1. Gay marriage will lead to polygamy.

 

 

 

False. And even if it was true, what's the big deal?

 

 

 

2. Marriage is about having children.

 

 

 

Gay people can still have children, not by themselves of course, but there are various methods of going about it. Plus, there is a huge population problem in the world, so even if this were true (which it isn't), it would probably be a good thing.

 

 

3. Children will be taught about homosexuality.

 

 

 

True, I think. But who even cares? Sure, you can teach your kids whatever you like, but why the scare of telling them about homosexuality? Most of these conservative d-bags are happy to teach their kids about how glorious it is to die for one's country *cough government cough* whilst blowing the brains out of innocent people in the Middle East yet they start shuddering when it comes to homosexuality. It is a part of life.

 

 

 

4. God/the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong.

 

 

 

Well, unless you're living in a theocracy, this has no place in your system of law. Plus, if homosexuality is so "wrong" why didn't God make it so that humans couldn't be gay? Being gay isn't a choice you know, (so don't even think about playing the whole "free will" card.)

 

 

 

5. The culture war will have been won by them evil gays!

 

 

 

Ok. Culture war = time and inevitable change. Things will never ever be the same, ever. Sure, celebrate your culture, that's fine. But what is this bs about "culture war?". Sure, I can understand class war, or just plain old normal war, but culture war? And why would homosexual marriage mean the end of your culture? This just doesn't make sense. I'm used to this from these fundamentalists, and usually I can sort of see their train of thought, but this [cabbage] just doesn't flow, at all.

 

 

6. Marriage is between a man and a woman, and they can get the same rights without being married!

 

 

 

Well, it isn't this simple. What you're saying in essence, is the whole "separate but equal" (therefore not equal) thing. Equal means equal, not separate. There really aren't any reasons other than your hatred for gays to make it illegal. Keeping people separate (but apparently equal) does one thing, and that is creates a framework of "us and thems". According to neo-cons, apparently humans need an enemy in order to function as a society, maybe that's why they enjoy war and killing so much, who knows.

 

 

 

 

 

*I said "these Christians" instead of "Christians" because if I had said the latter it would have obviously lead to about 20 people replying to me without reading my post using the old no true scotsman by claiming that these people aren't "real Christians".

[ThurinEthir]

 

4. God/the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong.

 

 

 

Well, unless you're living in a theocracy, this has no place in your system of law. Plus, if homosexuality is so "wrong" why didn't God make it so that humans couldn't be gay? Being gay isn't a choice you know, (so don't even think about playing the whole "free will" card.)

 

 

Though in general I agree with you, I'd probably explain this with some crap about original sin. (Or ooh, maybe gays are spawns of Satan!)

 

But yes, if someone isn't religious then why does it matter to them whether or not homosexuality is a sin?

[Zierro]

I find it repulsive and it's disturbing for most people especially little children who don't know things in life.

 

 

 

I doubt little kids are disturbed when they see a cross-dresser. At best, they are just inquisitive as to "Why that man is wearing mommy's clothes."

 

 

 

And being gay doesn't mean you enjoy dressing up in women's clothes - I definently don't. And it's unfair to even say that all people who cross-dress are gay. They are two seperate things, really.

 

 

 

True, it's usually the adults who give the weird reactions to stuff like that. While very few homosexuals dress like that, I still think it's quite strange. Women attire was made to fit a woman's anatomy - not a man's.

[Omar]

I don't know how I feel about transvestites. I just tend to look away.

[ThurinEthir]

I personally think becoming a transsexual is a better way to express oneself rather than becoming a transvestite, and both use basically the same reasoning.

 

Of course, the latter saves more money, so I'd understand.

[obfuscator]

 

Okay, here's one for you.

 

 

 

SIN DOESN'T EXIST.

 

 

 

I don't know if you believe what you said or if you're just informing someone of what certain religions say, but let me say it again. SIN - DOES NOT - EXIST. There is no "right" or "wrong" in an objective sense. And sly wizard if you're reading this just stop with your whole "moral relativism is stupid because you can't criticize other cultures without have moral absolutes" etc etc bs because this just isn't true. There is no "right" or "wrong" from God (at least there isn't any evidence for this anyway). And we can criticize other cultures if our own system of morality says that we should not defer from our own system of morality (unless of course the zeitgeist changes over time). For example, if we look at Nazi Germany, we can say, we believe that what you are doing is unacceptable, unfair to millions of people, and we are going to step in and stop this. Of course we aren't going to say that what they did is "wrong" because wrong is a stupid [bleep] word and the concept behind it doesn't make sense. If you replace "wrong" with "unacceptable in a world where countries should work together for peace and we should care more about others" then finally, we're getting somewhere. The reason why murder and rape is "wrong" is because we cannot have a stable society if such things were legal. Our morals change over time, you go back a few thousand years and they were murdering humans as a sacrifice to "God". In a world with nuclear weapons we can not afford to let people like Hitler get in power again. This is not because "God said it was wrong".

 

 

 

Anyway, back on the homosexuality topic. Well, I've been reading the website "www.protectmarriage.com" (It would be funny if it wasn't so sad), and I've come to the conclusion that a) *these Christians are AGAIN, full of [cabbage]. B) *these Christians will hide behind children at every opportunity, c) the average IQ of the people on that website must be about 90. As George Carlin said, "people have traditionally hidden behind three things, the Bible, the flag, and children." Where do they get this whole "protect marriage" thing from? What do they mean "protect marriage." They make it sound as if marriage is being attacked. At the core of their reasoning is a hatred for homosexuality. I don't know where they get it from, maybe they were beaten into it by their parents, but I guarantee, if you look you'll find it. Yet they continuously hide behind children (what is the big deal with children knowing about homosexuality? Is this just an American thing..?) I saw a gay couple when I was like 5, and I asked my Dad something about it, and he said, oh, they're gay, which means they are attracted to men and not women (in this case), I was like, oh okay, and went on with my day. NO MENTAL TRAUMA, NO MURDEROUS RAMPAGE, NO RAPE SPREE. What the hell?

 

 

 

In your opinion, sin doesn't exist. Please realize that it is your OPINION and everyone is entitled to their own.

 

And you think that Nazi Germany was stopped simply because it was "unfair"? A lot of unfair things happen in this world, but they are seen as acceptable by society. Why was that "unfairness" different?

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. God/the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong.

 

 

 

Well, unless you're living in a theocracy, this has no place in your system of law. Plus, if homosexuality is so "wrong" why didn't God make it so that humans couldn't be gay? Being gay isn't a choice you know, (so don't even think about playing the whole "free will" card.)

 

 

 

The bible does not say homosexuality is wrong, as I have stated several times before. You clearly aren't religious, but are attempting to explain something you know nothing about. Try actually doing some research before you jump to conclusions.

 

 

 

Murder is wrong, why didn't God make it so we couldn't kill each other? I am playing the free will card, because we have free will. In every aspect of our life, we have a choice. That is why being gay IS NOT WRONG. Simply acting on it is. Just as wanting to kill someone is not wrong, doing it is.

[Zierro]

Okay, about the procreation argument, I don't get what's so wrong about "spilling your seed". If you ask me it's like stepping through grass. Yeah you're killing lots of plants and bugs but they are so insignificant that it barely matters. Most of your sperm just goes to waste anyways. You can say that sex is for the sole purpose of procreation but I don't see how going against that can be considered bad. Eating is for the sole purpose of survival but if we eat a few sweets it's not considered bad.

[3rkid]

This is why Atheism is the best.

[obfuscator]

This is why Atheism is the best.

 

 

 

I'm just wondering, have you ever made an intelligent comment that actually contributes to the discussion rather then just spamming for post count?

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, about spilling the seed. It is true that plants die, but they are just plants. It's true that 99.9% of sperm will be wasted, but since they have the potential to become a human, so they should not be wasted unneccesarily.