Homosexuality: Right or Wrong?

[Shinjula]

Anyway, about spilling the seed. It is true that plants die, but they are just plants. It's true that 99.9% of sperm will be wasted, but since they have the potential to become a human, so they should not be wasted unneccesarily.

 

Doesnt this imply that every month that a woman doesnt have a baby and the egg is wasted that that is just as much a sin?

 

Isnt this where the dark ages concept that women and their periods are evil, comes from? And have we really not got past this?

[obfuscator]

Anyway, about spilling the seed. It is true that plants die, but they are just plants. It's true that 99.9% of sperm will be wasted, but since they have the potential to become a human, so they should not be wasted unneccesarily.

 

Doesnt this imply that every month that a woman doesnt have a baby and the egg is wasted that that is just as much a sin?

 

Isnt this where the dark ages concept that women and their periods are evil, comes from? And have we really not got past this?

 

 

 

Its the difference between unavoidable and accidental. Say you are carrying a large plate of food. Nothing wrong if you slip and drop it by accident. But if you just throw it on to the floor, that's bad.

[Shinjula]

Ok sure, I can accept that its unavoidable on the womans part, now what about god, god designed woman to produce an egg once a month, why would he do that if it were a sin to waste potential life?

 

(After all hes omnipotent and could presumably design us differently - so that this wouldn't be necessary)

[obfuscator]

Ok sure, I can accept that its unavoidable on the womans part, now what about god, god designed woman to produce an egg once a month, why would he do that if it were a sin to waste potential life?

 

(After all hes omnipotent and could presumably design us differently - so that this wouldn't be necessary)

 

It isn't a sin to waste an egg. He made women that way so that there is a potential for life once a month. However, it is just a potential. As long as it is not deliberately being destroyed there is no harm done.

[NoMoreDead]

 

Murder is wrong, why didn't God make it so we couldn't kill each other? I am playing the free will card, because we have free will. In every aspect of our life, we have a choice. That is why being gay IS NOT WRONG. Simply acting on it is. Just as wanting to kill someone is not wrong, doing it is.

 

 

 

I lol'ed.

 

 

 

Planning and attempting murder are illegal. As a matter of fact, pre-meditated murder will land you more time in prison than spur of the moment will. It IS wrong to want to kill someone, but it's infinitly more wrong to complete the act.

 

 

 

Acting on a feeling isn't wrong. Acting on what comes natural to yourself isn't wrong (assuming of course you're not infringing on the rights of others).

 

 

 

"In every aspect of our life, we have a choice."

 

 

 

We don't have a choice as to who our parents are. We have no choice as to where we grow up. We have no choice as to what school we attend as a pre-schooler. We don't have choices on lots of things we do. I can't choose who I'm attracted to. I can't help that blondes are more appealing to me than redheads, just as homosexuals cannot help the fact that they are attracted to the same sex. It's not wrong if it comes naturally. As long as you aren't infringing upon my rights, I could care less. Why worry about what others do if it's not hurting anyone else?

[Zierro]

Ok sure, I can accept that its unavoidable on the womans part, now what about god, god designed woman to produce an egg once a month, why would he do that if it were a sin to waste potential life?

 

(After all hes omnipotent and could presumably design us differently - so that this wouldn't be necessary)

 

It isn't a sin to waste an egg. He made women that way so that there is a potential for life once a month. However, it is just a potential. As long as it is not deliberately being destroyed there is no harm done.

 

 

 

But it still goes against God's plan to "not waste potential lives". If it's potential we're talking about then technically it all comes down to God since he makes everything in the universe happen. God is the one who chooses whether a potential live makes it or not. If God really didn't want us wasting lives unnecessarily, then why would he deliberately do it himself?

[obfuscator]

 

Murder is wrong, why didn't God make it so we couldn't kill each other? I am playing the free will card, because we have free will. In every aspect of our life, we have a choice. That is why being gay IS NOT WRONG. Simply acting on it is. Just as wanting to kill someone is not wrong, doing it is.

 

 

 

I lol'ed.

 

 

 

Planning and attempting murder are illegal. As a matter of fact, pre-meditated murder will land you more time in prison than spur of the moment will. It IS wrong to want to kill someone, but it's infinitly more wrong to complete the act.

 

 

 

Acting on a feeling isn't wrong. Acting on what comes natural to yourself isn't wrong (assuming of course you're not infringing on the rights of others).

 

 

 

"In every aspect of our life, we have a choice."

 

 

 

We don't have a choice as to who our parents are. We have no choice as to where we grow up. We have no choice as to what school we attend as a pre-schooler. We don't have choices on lots of things we do. I can't choose who I'm attracted to. I can't help that blondes are more appealing to me than redheads, just as homosexuals cannot help the fact that they are attracted to the same sex. It's not wrong if it comes naturally. As long as you aren't infringing upon my rights, I could care less. Why worry about what others do if it's not hurting anyone else?

 

 

 

You have the choice to have gay sex or not, thats as simple as it gets. Acting on what comes naturally to yourself certainly is very wrong. I know someone who was exceptionally good at pickpocketing. That's right, he could steal anything, from anybody's pockets. He used to steal Pokemon cards that way when I was in elementary school, and only I knew. It came naturally to him, but he decided to stop, because stealing is wrong.

 

 

 

Ok sure, I can accept that its unavoidable on the womans part, now what about god, god designed woman to produce an egg once a month, why would he do that if it were a sin to waste potential life?

 

(After all hes omnipotent and could presumably design us differently - so that this wouldn't be necessary)

 

It isn't a sin to waste an egg. He made women that way so that there is a potential for life once a month. However, it is just a potential. As long as it is not deliberately being destroyed there is no harm done.

 

 

 

But it still goes against God's plan to "not waste potential lives". If it's potential we're talking about then technically it all comes down to God since he makes everything in the universe happen. God is the one who chooses whether a potential live makes it or not. If God really didn't want us wasting lives unnecessarily, then why would he deliberately do it himself?

 

 

 

Because we have free will. I know people don't like it when I bring it up, but it is true. We have the choice of what we want to do in our life, and to be honest, if god was going to control every aspect of our lives, what would be the point of our existence?

[Bauke]

 

You have the choice to have gay sex or not, thats as simple as it gets. Acting on what comes naturally to yourself certainly is very wrong. I know someone who was exceptionally good at pickpocketing. That's right, he could steal anything, from anybody's pockets. He used to steal Pokemon cards that way when I was in elementary school, and only I knew. It came naturally to him, but he decided to stop, because stealing is wrong.

 

 

Lol, you're comparing the love two men have with eachother with stealing? Fact is, stealing is universally accepted as morally wrong, while homosexuality is not. In fact, homosexuality is getting accepted more and more, especially by people who are a bit more in touch with reality and understand the fact that two males (or females for that matter) having sex does absolutely no harm. Except for people who think they can force their medieval morals upon other people.

 

 

Because we have free will. I know people don't like it when I bring it up, but it is true. We have the choice of what we want to do in our life, and to be honest, if god was going to control every aspect of our lives, what would be the point of our existence?

 

What does that have to do with the fact that "god" doesn't want potential lives to be lost while he destroys millions of eggs each day worldwide? If that is "god's way" then god is a hypocrite (which he is in more ways, but I'll leave that out).

 

 

 

Also do notice the fact that produced semen can only survive for a couple of days. If it's not wasted by ejaculation, then it will be by degradation in our body.

 

 

 

The whole "wasting semen" thing is based on non-consistant arguments.

[3rkid]

This is why Atheism is the best.

 

 

 

I'm just wondering, have you ever made an intelligent comment that actually contributes to the discussion rather then just spamming for post count?

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, about spilling the seed. It is true that plants die, but they are just plants. It's true that 99.9% of sperm will be wasted, but since they have the potential to become a human, so they should not be wasted unneccesarily.

 

 

 

Whoops, I'm sorry that I don't have a religion, that bases itself on an ancient book that contradicts itself many times and tells us that (basically everyone in the world has committed a sin worthy of going to a fake place called "Hell", to write and argue about.

 

 

 

Oh yes, and I want post count. Who ever respects or cares about post count in any way (maybe you're concerned about post count) is a moron. I think I'll go spam some more to increase a small number right above my location, see ya!

 

 

 

And yes I think homosexuality is completely right, and they should be allowed to marry.

 

 

 

P.S. Do you happen to be conservative Y_Guy?

[RichieMcD]

 

Murder is wrong, why didn't God make it so we couldn't kill each other? I am playing the free will card, because we have free will. In every aspect of our life, we have a choice. That is why being gay IS NOT WRONG. Simply acting on it is. Just as wanting to kill someone is not wrong, doing it is.

 

 

 

What's to say other than your 2,000 year old book filled with contradictive statements and logic defying situations it's wrong?

 

 

 

By your logic, masturbating is just as wrong as being a homosexual performing sexual acts as "the seed is wasted" yet most people wont be persecuted and bullied for doing what the average person does, odds are you "waste the seed" too.

[Serpent Eye]

How did the whole "needlessly spilling the seed" topic come up, anyways?

 

 

 

It's just sperm, for goodness sake, people!

 

 

 

Who cares if it's wasted!

 

 

 

First it was all about "protecting the sanctity of marriage," and now it's about "protecting the sanctity of sperm" ...?

 

 

 

This argument lacks.

[gman019]

How did the whole "needlessly spilling the seed" topic come up, anyways?

 

 

 

It's just sperm, for goodness sake, people!

 

 

 

Who cares if it's wasted!

 

 

 

First it was all about "protecting the sanctity of marriage," and now it's about "protecting the sanctity of sperm" ...?

 

 

 

This argument lacks.

 

 

 

 

 

It started with y_guy talking about how the Catholic church says: "Homosexuality isn't a sin, Homosexual sex is, because the meaning of sex is to procreate. You get married to procreate, so since males together/females together can't procreate, they shouldn't marry."

[ThurinEthir]

How did the whole "needlessly spilling the seed" topic come up, anyways?

 

 

 

It's just sperm, for goodness sake, people!

 

 

 

Who cares if it's wasted!

 

 

 

First it was all about "protecting the sanctity of marriage," and now it's about "protecting the sanctity of sperm" ...?

 

 

 

This argument lacks.

 

 

 

 

 

It started with y_guy talking about how the Catholic church says: "Homosexuality isn't a sin, Homosexual sex is, because the meaning of sex is to procreate. You get married to procreate, so since males together/females together can't procreate, they shouldn't marry."

 

I'm pretty sure he never said the point of getting married was to procreate. (Only that the point of sex was) Though it's rather irrelevant at this point.

[Zierro]

Actually he did say that.

 

 

 

From a religious point of veiw, being gay is not a sin, and has never been called that.

 

 

 

The veiw(of the catholic church at least) is as follows:

 

 

 

Being gay is not a sin.

 

Having sex outside marriage is a sin.

 

The purpose of marriage is to procreate.

 

Since two men can never procreate, they cannot marry.

 

Since they cannot marry, they cannot have sex inside marriage.

 

Since they must have sex outside marriage, the sex is a sin.

 

 

 

How isn't it relevant though? I see it as a bad argument of why gays shouldn't marry because that's saying that infertile couples shouldn't marry either.

[ThurinEthir]

Ah, I see.

 

The comment about irrelevance was in agreement with SerpentEye, concerning the argument about wasting sperm. Sperm has basically the same role as eggs, so if eggs are allowed to be wasted, then sperm should be too. Right?

[Zierro]

Yes, nothing more than a potential of life. You know, a woman is preventing potential lives from existing by not having a child every year. Yet nothing suggests that it is a sin to not bare children every single time you are able to.

[Shinjula]

It isn't a sin to waste an egg. He made women that way so that there is a potential for life once a month. However, it is just a potential. As long as it is not deliberately being destroyed there is no harm done.

 

 

 

Ok but you did start off with

 

 

 

Anyway, about spilling the seed. It is true that plants die, but they are just plants. It's true that 99.9% of sperm will be wasted, but since they have the potential to become a human, so they should not be wasted unneccesarily.

 

 

 

OK now maybe I've misinterpreted where youve been coming from, but I was assuming from that second quote that you were implying that it was a sin to waste semen. Or at least extremely undesirable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re Gays are fine as long as they dont have sex, that just makes no sense to me. I can vaguely undestand the idea the some people might think being gay is an abomination (historically at least) but to say being gay is fine but to express your love is what is forbidden seems ludicrous. If its not a sin to love another man why on earth would it be a sin to express it?

[Bauke]

Yes, nothing more than a potential of life. You know, a woman is preventing potential lives from existing by not having a child every year. Yet nothing suggests that it is a sin to not bare children every single time you are able to.

 

Oh, but she is preventing many more potential lives. A woman body at the start of life has millions of eggs inside of her, from which only a few manage to make it to the state in which they are "released" so they are able to fertilize with a male sperm cell.

 

 

 

Millions of eggs... wasted.. in a rat race where the eggs compete over growth.

 

 

 

Also, I mentioned above that male sperm can only survive a couple of days, thus wasting sperm already happens inside the body by degradation.

 

 

 

Another point is that during the ejaculation

 

The body is one big waste of potential lives

 

 

 

And seriously... the male body literally produces an incredible ammount of sperm during it's life. 200 million sperm cells are released each ejaculation. Can you imagine how many sperm cells are created during a male's life? That's a number that is almost unimaginable.

 

 

 

Kinda puts the whole wasting argument in perspective. Next to the fact that it's based on some kind of religion that thinks it has a monopoly on truth and regards their medieval morals as superior, the "wasting sperm" argument contradicts with what our body tells us.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with "wasting" potential lifes. Sperm is inclined to be potential. Regardless of what you do, gazillions of sperm cells will inevitably be wasted during life.

 

 

 

But alas, almost every religious argument can be counterfacted by logic arguments and factual statements, sadly most religious people are deaf for anything that "threatens" their simplistic view of the world.

[obfuscator]

Yes, nothing more than a potential of life. You know, a woman is preventing potential lives from existing by not having a child every year. Yet nothing suggests that it is a sin to not bare children every single time you are able to.

 

Oh, but she is preventing many more potential lives. A woman body at the start of life has millions of eggs inside of her, from which only a few manage to make it to the state in which they are "released" so they are able to fertilize with a male sperm cell.

 

 

 

Millions of eggs... wasted.. in a rat race where the eggs compete over growth.

 

 

 

Also, I mentioned above that male sperm can only survive a couple of days, thus wasting sperm already happens inside the body by degradation.

 

 

 

Another point is that during the ejaculation

 

The body is one big waste of potential lives

 

 

 

And seriously... the male body literally produces an incredible ammount of sperm during it's life. 200 million sperm cells are released each ejaculation. Can you imagine how many sperm cells are created during a male's life? That's a number that is almost unimaginable.

 

 

 

Kinda puts the whole wasting argument in perspective. Next to the fact that it's based on some kind of religion that thinks it has a monopoly on truth and regards their medieval morals as superior, the "wasting sperm" argument contradicts with what our body tells us.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with "wasting" potential lifes. Sperm is inclined to be potential. Regardless of what you do, gazillions of sperm cells will inevitably be wasted during life.

 

 

 

But alas, almost every religious argument can be counterfacted by logic arguments and factual statements, sadly most religious people are deaf for anything that "threatens" their simplistic view of the world.

 

 

 

And once again, your failure to actually understand the teachings of the church lead to you bashing something that isn't even believed. I don't know how we got on to the topic of wasting sperm in the first place, but since you asked.

 

 

 

Wasting sperm isn't the reason why premarital sex, masturbation, contraception etc are seen as wrong by the catholic church. Basically, it is taking the pleasure meant to be in a intimate relationship with one person for the sole purpose of creating new life and using it carelessly.

[user1991]

 

Okay, here's one for you.

 

 

 

SIN DOESN'T EXIST.

 

 

 

I don't know if you believe what you said or if you're just informing someone of what certain religions say, but let me say it again. SIN - DOES NOT - EXIST. There is no "right" or "wrong" in an objective sense. And sly wizard if you're reading this just stop with your whole "moral relativism is stupid because you can't criticize other cultures without have moral absolutes" etc etc bs because this just isn't true. There is no "right" or "wrong" from God (at least there isn't any evidence for this anyway). And we can criticize other cultures if our own system of morality says that we should not defer from our own system of morality (unless of course the zeitgeist changes over time). For example, if we look at Nazi Germany, we can say, we believe that what you are doing is unacceptable, unfair to millions of people, and we are going to step in and stop this. Of course we aren't going to say that what they did is "wrong" because wrong is a stupid [bleep] word and the concept behind it doesn't make sense. If you replace "wrong" with "unacceptable in a world where countries should work together for peace and we should care more about others" then finally, we're getting somewhere. The reason why murder and rape is "wrong" is because we cannot have a stable society if such things were legal. Our morals change over time, you go back a few thousand years and they were murdering humans as a sacrifice to "God". In a world with nuclear weapons we can not afford to let people like Hitler get in power again. This is not because "God said it was wrong".

 

 

 

Anyway, back on the homosexuality topic. Well, I've been reading the website "www.protectmarriage.com" (It would be funny if it wasn't so sad), and I've come to the conclusion that a) *these Christians are AGAIN, full of [cabbage]. B) *these Christians will hide behind children at every opportunity, c) the average IQ of the people on that website must be about 90. As George Carlin said, "people have traditionally hidden behind three things, the Bible, the flag, and children." Where do they get this whole "protect marriage" thing from? What do they mean "protect marriage." They make it sound as if marriage is being attacked. At the core of their reasoning is a hatred for homosexuality. I don't know where they get it from, maybe they were beaten into it by their parents, but I guarantee, if you look you'll find it. Yet they continuously hide behind children (what is the big deal with children knowing about homosexuality? Is this just an American thing..?) I saw a gay couple when I was like 5, and I asked my Dad something about it, and he said, oh, they're gay, which means they are attracted to men and not women (in this case), I was like, oh okay, and went on with my day. NO MENTAL TRAUMA, NO MURDEROUS RAMPAGE, NO RAPE SPREE. What the hell?

 

 

 

In your opinion, sin doesn't exist. Please realize that it is your OPINION and everyone is entitled to their own.

 

And you think that Nazi Germany was stopped simply because it was "unfair"? A lot of unfair things happen in this world, but they are seen as acceptable by society. Why was that "unfairness" different?

 

 

 

[/b]

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. God/the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong.

 

 

 

Well, unless you're living in a theocracy, this has no place in your system of law. Plus, if homosexuality is so "wrong" why didn't God make it so that humans couldn't be gay? Being gay isn't a choice you know, (so don't even think about playing the whole "free will" card.)

 

 

 

The bible does not say homosexuality is wrong, as I have stated several times before. You clearly aren't religious, but are attempting to explain something you know nothing about. Try actually doing some research before you jump to conclusions.

 

 

 

Murder is wrong, why didn't God make it so we couldn't kill each other? I am playing the free will card, because we have free will. In every aspect of our life, we have a choice. That is why being gay IS NOT WRONG. Simply acting on it is. Just as wanting to kill someone is not wrong, doing it is.

 

 

 

Okay, let me introduce you to my friend, Mr. Burden of Proof. What is the evidence for "sin" existing? The Bible? Well the Bible is terrible evidence.

 

 

 

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. "Wrong" does not exist in the sense that it is "wrong" because God says so. Things are only "wrong" because it is what the majority of certain groups/nations/etc believes. The reason what Hitler did was "wrong" was because the majority of the people in the world thought it was wrong. The reason the majority thinks this is because they believe that society would not be able to function if we allowed these things. Sorry if you don't like it, but until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt/even show me the slightest bit of evidence for a) God's existence, B) That you know HIS MIND AND HIS WILL, then I don't believe a word you say. I'm not defending Hitler here, what he did was despicable, but it wasn't "wrong" in the sense that you believe.

 

 

 

And okay, mr. Semantics, how about you cut the [cabbage] and stop avoiding my arguments? I have read the Bible. The Bible says "if a man lies with another man, it is an abomination, and they will surely be put to death." So okay, being gay is not a sin, but if you're gay and you have sex it is. So again, why would God make it so that people could be gay AND that they would have sexual urges? Let me guess, to test their faith?

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but you sound like the sort of person that has never read any of the arguments against your position, EVER. EVER. EVER. I have read the Bible, and I don't buy any of it. Sure, a lot of it is good, and sure, people do good things because of it. However, I believe that the bad done in the name of the religion vastly outweighs the good, and religion still continues to deny people rights (gay marriage). Until we sort this [cabbage] out and you keep your goddamn religions to yourselves I will argue my point. Stop pretending you know God's mind. All you religious people just want to be able to subject your will onto the people as the will of God.

[obfuscator]

 

Okay, let me introduce you to my friend, Mr. Burden of Proof. What is the evidence for "sin" existing? The Bible? Well the Bible is terrible evidence.

 

 

 

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. "Wrong" does not exist in the sense that it is "wrong" because God says so. Things are only "wrong" because it is what the majority of certain groups/nations/etc believes. The reason what Hitler did was "wrong" was because the majority of the people in the world thought it was wrong. The reason the majority thinks this is because they believe that society would not be able to function if we allowed these things. Sorry if you don't like it, but until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt/even show me the slightest bit of evidence for a) God's existence, B) That you know HIS MIND AND HIS WILL, then I don't believe a word you say. I'm not defending Hitler here, what he did was despicable, but it wasn't "wrong" in the sense that you believe.

 

 

 

And okay, mr. Semantics, how about you cut the [cabbage] and stop avoiding my arguments? I have read the Bible. The Bible says "if a man lies with another man, it is an abomination, and they will surely be put to death." So okay, being gay is not a sin, but if you're gay and you have sex it is. So again, why would God make it so that people could be gay AND that they would have sexual urges? Let me guess, to test their faith?

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but you sound like the sort of person that has never read any of the arguments against your position, EVER. EVER. EVER. I have read the Bible, and I don't buy any of it. Sure, a lot of it is good, and sure, people do good things because of it. However, I believe that the bad done in the name of the religion vastly outweighs the good, and religion still continues to deny people rights (gay marriage). Until we sort this [cabbage] out and you keep your goddamn religions to yourselves I will argue my point. Stop pretending you know God's mind. All you religious people just want to be able to subject your will onto the people as the will of God.

 

 

 

The majority of people in the world believe homosexuality is wrong also, but it is accepted. I live in Canada. When polls were done, about public opinion as to whether gay marriage should be legalized, 53% of Canada's population was against it. If one of the most "progressive" countries in the world is more against than for it, how do you think the billions of people in the more traditional countries feel? I can assure you, there are far more who oppose then support gay marriage.

 

 

 

As I have said before, if you actually read my posts, I am merely attempting to clarify the church's position on this issue. I have many gay friends. They all know my beliefs and accept them as my opinions. I have never tried to force them to change their ways and never will, because in their opinion, what they are doing is fine, and as much as I disagree with it I accept it, because I cannot and should not force people to change their minds. I am merely trying to explain my views and my reasons for having them.

 

 

 

You think you are so "progressive" to be able to call me closed minded just because I believe in something that doesn't have to be shoved right in front of my face? There are a lot of things that have no "evidence" for existence, and just because you don't agree with the existence of sin you point out the fact that there is no writing on the wall. I am sure there are many things you believe that have no evidence for them, or less evidence then sin does, either way. Global warming perhaps?

 

 

 

You say society cannot function with Hitler killing whoever he wanted? He killed 6 million people. That was a horrible loss of life.

 

Abortion kills 1.7 million children in the United States ALONE each year, probably close to 100 million world wide. That is accepted, isn't it? Society still functions? Yes it does.

 

 

 

And yes, it is a test of faith, being gay. We all have tests of faith. Even if you are not religious, daily life, and society requires that time and time again, we chose between what is right and what is easy. I am sure you have made those choices, for better or worse, at some point, and I am sure you will again, as will I. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you have to do it. You suggest that we should act on whatever feels natural, but if we did that, we would be no better than animals.

[Shinjula]

OK so 53% of Canadian still think gay marriage is wrong, fine but now take a look at what has happened to that figure over the last ten years.

 

 

 

Gay men and women have been steady campaigning over the last forty years, it started with the stonewall riots and it will continue.

 

That stat that you mentioned has been steadily dropping along with all the other stats relating to inequal rights for homosexuals ever since we came out of the closet and started helping to change the way people thought of us.

 

 

 

As for Canada being progressive, forty years of progression from a point of it being punishable with up to 14 years in prison in 1969 is still early days.

 

 

 

More and more people are learning that we are no threat to society and through discussions such as this thread society moves towards a more enlighten stance.

 

 

 

No one is forcing a viewpoint on anyone (after all, short of brainwashing how could we?), people are simply realising that there is simply no good reasons not to let us be who we want to be, its just freedom thats all.

 

 

 

You chose to come to this thread, no one forced you, if the things here challenge how you think, even to the point of discomfort, then good, you can, of course always choose not to come back.

[obfuscator]

OK so 53% of Canadian still think gay marriage is wrong, fine but now take a look at what has happened to that figure over the last ten years.

 

 

 

That poll was in 2006.

 

 

 

 

Gay men and women have been steady campaigning over the last forty years, it started with the stonewall riots and it will continue.

 

That stat that you mentioned has been steadily dropping along with all the other stats relating to inequal rights for homosexuals ever since we came out of the closet and started helping to change the way people thought of us.

 

 

 

As for Canada being progressive, forty years of progression from a point of it being punishable with up to 14 years in prison in 1969 is still early days.

 

 

 

More and more people are learning that we are no threat to society and through discussions such as this thread society moves towards a more enlighten stance.

 

 

 

No one is forcing a viewpoint on anyone (after all, short of brainwashing how could we?), people are simply realising that there is simply no good reasons not to let us be who we want to be, its just freedom thats all.

 

 

 

You chose to come to this thread, no one forced you, if the things here challenge how you think, even to the point of discomfort, then good, you can, of course always choose not to come back.

 

 

 

I can't say I take issue with anything you are saying. I am not forcing my views, simply trying to explain them. I am not going to change my views, but as i have said before, while I believe gay marriage is wrong I accept that it is an individual choice and have and will never try to prevent people from doing that.

[Bauke]

 

 

 

And once again, your failure to actually understand the teachings of the church lead to you bashing something that isn't even believed. I don't know how we got on to the topic of wasting sperm in the first place, but since you asked.

 

 

I don't need to understand all that religious stuff to understand that it's a load of crap. Wake up already. The middle ages are over.

 

 

Wasting sperm isn't the reason why premarital sex, masturbation, contraception etc are seen as wrong by the catholic church. Basically, it is taking the pleasure meant to be in a intimate relationship with one person for the sole purpose of creating new life and using it carelessly.

 

That's your opinion, based on questionable beliefs. Just keep it to yourself instead of judging others.

[Bauke]

 

The majority of people in the world believe homosexuality is wrong also, but it is accepted. I live in Canada. When polls were done, about public opinion as to whether gay marriage should be legalized, 53% of Canada's population was against it. If one of the most "progressive" countries in the world is more against than for it, how do you think the billions of people in the more traditional countries feel? I can assure you, there are far more who oppose then support gay marriage.

 

 

You have absolutely no idea about global feelings about homosexuality. You're making things up.

 

 

As I have said before, if you actually read my posts, I am merely attempting to clarify the church's position on this issue. I have many gay friends. They all know my beliefs and accept them as my opinions. I have never tried to force them to change their ways and never will, because in their opinion, what they are doing is fine, and as much as I disagree with it I accept it, because I cannot and should not force people to change their minds. I am merely trying to explain my views and my reasons for having them.

 

 

 

You think you are so "progressive" to be able to call me closed minded just because I believe in something that doesn't have to be shoved right in front of my face? There are a lot of things that have no "evidence" for existence, and just because you don't agree with the existence of sin you point out the fact that there is no writing on the wall. I am sure there are many things you believe that have no evidence for them, or less evidence then sin does, either way. Global warming perhaps?

 

 

There's a difference between not having to have things shoved right in front of your face and plain ignorance. For years and years scientists in all fields have presented non-religious evidence and all the church does is "nananana, I can't hear you", desperately trying to keep their primitive beliefs alive.

 

 

You say society cannot function with Hitler killing whoever he wanted? He killed 6 million people. That was a horrible loss of life.

 

Abortion kills 1.7 million children in the United States ALONE each year, probably close to 100 million world wide. That is accepted, isn't it? Society still functions? Yes it does.

 

 

Ok, that's just being sad

 

 

And yes, it is a test of faith, being gay. We all have tests of faith. Even if you are not religious, daily life, and society requires that time and time again, we chose between what is right and what is easy.

 

 

Fact is, there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. And "test of faith" is one of those non-arguments religious people make up whenever something can't be explained with normal reasoning.

 

 

I am sure you have made those choices, for better or worse, at some point, and I am sure you will again, as will I. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you have to do it. You suggest that we should act on whatever feels natural, but if we did that, we would be no better than animals.

 

Fact is, we are animals. We're built exactly the same.