The abortion debate

[insane]

More people = more poor people = more welfare = higher taxes = less spending money for middle class = econony falling.

 

 

 

So.... go up to a poor person and tell them that the world would be better off had they been aborted.

[apinagez]

More people = more poor people = more welfare = higher taxes = less spending money for middle class = econony falling.

 

 

 

So.... go up to a poor person and tell them that the world would be better off had they been aborted.

 

 

 

I think the point is beyond that.

 

Would you rather be born to a poor, unstructured, or even inexistent family or don't get to be born at all?

 

I would like not to be born, because I think life's only worth it if you can enjoy your time in the Earth.

 

The idea of a life of suffering and pain doesn't appeal to me.

[insane]

More people = more poor people = more welfare = higher taxes = less spending money for middle class = econony falling.

 

 

 

So.... go up to a poor person and tell them that the world would be better off had they been aborted.

 

 

 

I think the point is beyond that.

 

Would you rather be born to a poor, unstructured, or even inexistent family or don't get to be born at all?

 

I would like not to be born, because I think life's only worth it if you can enjoy your time in the Earth.

 

The idea of a life of suffering and pain doesn't appeal to me.

 

 

 

Well I think it appeals to the billions of suffering humans that haven't committed suicide yet.

 

 

 

It's a question you can't truthfully answer, since you don't know what it's like to not exist. You can say "nothing", but in truth, you really don't know.

 

 

 

And yea, if suffering was worse than non-existence, then people that suffer would kill themselves. Which begs the conclusion - go tell someone that has only suffered to kill themselves - or tell them they'd be better off never having been born. So really, your question didn't go "beyond" what I said - it just took the part that you didn't like away :P

[apinagez]

In my opinion, people just don't kill themselves at astonishing rates because there are physical pain and fear involved. Among others, religion and reputation are two important factors on that fear. If it weren't for their religion and the society pressures, people wouldn't tolerate as much as they do. I have no doubt they'd rather die than live suffering.

 

As for myself, I surely can't tell wether the life after death, or the absolute nothing would be more painful than the real life, however, I believe after death humans quit existing, as, I believe, all those feelings and sensations we call our "soul" are nothing more than our bodies' reaction to the chemical and biological reactions involved in life. Therefore, I'd take death.

[mad4u689]

More people = more poor people = more welfare = higher taxes = less spending money for middle class = econony falling.

 

 

 

So.... go up to a poor person and tell them that the world would be better off had they been aborted.

 

 

 

I think the point is beyond that.

 

Would you rather be born to a poor, unstructured, or even inexistent family or don't get to be born at all?

 

I would like not to be born, because I think life's only worth it if you can enjoy your time in the Earth.

 

The idea of a life of suffering and pain doesn't appeal to me.

 

 

 

You're assuming that everyone who is poor lives a life of suffering and pain.

 

 

 

If their life is so terrible they'd prefer not to live, they'd choose to commit suicide. Since more people choose to live than to commit suicide, let's safely assume that they are glad to be alive, and if you asked them if they'd rather not be alive, they'd look at you like you were crazy.

[apinagez]

You're assuming that everyone who is poor lives a life of suffering and pain.

 

 

 

If their life is so terrible they'd prefer not to live, they'd choose to commit suicide. Since more people choose to live than to commit suicide, let's safely assume that they are glad to be alive, and if you asked them if they'd rather not be alive, they'd look at you like you were crazy.

 

 

 

Oh, glad you've touched that point Mad.

 

What I understand as an abortion elective situation is something along the lines of a 14 year old educationless, poor mother, whose child is fruit of rapeing and is unwanted by the mother and the mother's relatives.

 

That child's life is surely going to be disgraceful.

[mad4u689]

You're assuming that everyone who is poor lives a life of suffering and pain.

 

 

 

If their life is so terrible they'd prefer not to live, they'd choose to commit suicide. Since more people choose to live than to commit suicide, let's safely assume that they are glad to be alive, and if you asked them if they'd rather not be alive, they'd look at you like you were crazy.

 

 

 

Oh, glad you've touched that point Mad.

 

What I understand as an abortion elective situation is something along the lines of a 14 year old educationless, poor mother, whose child is fruit of rapeing and is unwanted by the mother and the mother's relatives.

 

That child's life is surely going to be disgraceful.

 

 

 

No, you're neglecting the HUGE factor of human free choice. The child's life might be "disgraceful" or it might wind up okay. The child may wind up going to public school, where the child will (ideally) get a good enough education to function in society and improve hir economic situation; alternatively, ze may not improve hir economic situation, but at least may be happy to be alive anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless of what is better for this individual baby or for society, you have to consider whether you're violating a human right or not.

 

 

 

I consider murder to be not okay. Regardless of the context, murder is something that is not alright, and the government must legislate against. For example, let's say Criminal X kills my mother. That means that it's not okay for me to go out and murder Criminal X. This is still wrong, and this is still murder, and this should be illegal, even though my reasons are "understandable."

 

 

 

Similarly, I believe abortion is murder, once the fetus has achieved a certain point of "consciousness." This is a difficult line to draw, so I'll leave that for another later topic.

 

 

 

If abortion is murder, then regardless of context (I don't want this baby / I was raped and don't want the child of a rapist / etc), it is not okay, and the government should legislate against it, even if the reasons are understandable.

 

 

 

The exception to this is in cases where the mother's life is threatened. Similarly, you are allowed to kill in defense of your own life, if someone has broken into and entered your home, for example. When another life is in danger, the line of "murder" blurs.

[apinagez]

Again Mad, that's what I would like to happen to myself in such situation. I would give up on my free choice in order to be relieved of such a tough upcoming life.

 

I agree with you there's an age limit for abortion to be acceptable, too.

 

 

 

Please notice I'm looking at the problem from my perspective. In Brazil, a children born in those conditions would probably get involved with drugs and violence and be killed by drugdealers or by the police before he reached legal majority.

 

His only chance of success would be becoming a football player, which is extremely unlikely.

[mad4u689]

Again Mad, that's what I would like to happen to myself in such situation. I would give up on my free choice in order to be relieved of such a tough upcoming life.

 

I agree with you there's an age limit for abortion to be acceptable, too.

 

 

 

Please notice I'm looking at the problem from my perspective. In Brazil, a children born in those conditions would probably get involved with drugs and violence and be killed by drugdealers or by the police before he reached legal majority.

 

His only chance of success would be becoming a football player, which is extremely unlikely.

 

 

 

Then the real issue isn't allowing abortion, but rather establishing support structures so that babies who live are given a fighting chance. This means education reform, prison reform, etc etc :D

[apinagez]

Not gonna happen.

[mad4u689]

Not gonna happen.

 

 

 

Now that's idealistic :P

 

 

 

If you ever want a hope of reaching the "ideal" society, someone's gotta strive for it :D

 

 

 

Also, it is important to separate the two issues:

 

-whether abortion should be legal or illegal

 

-the social ramifications of legalizing/illegalizing abortion, and how to counteract those effects in a way that is most beneficial to society

[apinagez]

Spend half an hour of your day researching our latest corruption scandals, our stagnant economy and the fact the 10% richer concentrate 50% of the income while the 50% poorer concentrate 10% of it.

 

Add to that the fact the global economy needs some peripheral in order to work, and therefore, the rich countries are happy with us being that way.

[kelem_ryu]

You can't deny that you are killing something when you abort a baby.

 

 

 

Nevertheless women aborted since ages. Making it illeal will make it just more risky to the health of the mother.

 

 

 

Personally i believe that it is right to kill anything that is inside your body if you want to.

 

 

 

Basically the last statement is my final thought on this topic. I could blather on and on, but this most likely is my final stance on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Let me tell the law in Austria: Abortion is illegal, but there is no punishment as long as you abort until the third? month.

[FuBai]

You can't deny that you are killing something when you abort a baby.

 

 

 

Nevertheless women aborted since ages. Making it illeal will make it just more risky to the health of the mother.

 

 

 

Personally i believe that it is right to kill anything that is inside your body if you want to.

 

 

 

Basically the last statement is my final thought on this topic. I could blather on and on, but this most likely is my final stance on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Let me tell the law in Austria: Abortion is illegal, but there is no punishment as long as you abort until the third? month.

 

 

 

A creature living inside you is no more than a cancer, a tumor, a parasite if it is unwanted. A woman has the right to get rid of it, in the same way she has the right to get rid of a cancer. I am completly pro-choice on the issue. Potentiality does not equal actuality either. Uprooting an oak is different from unearthing an acorn.

[Guest GhostRanger]

My belief is that A creature living inside you is no more than a cancer, a tumor, a parasite if it is unwanted. A woman has the right to get rid of it, in the same way she has the right to get rid of a cancer. I am completly pro-choice on the issue. Potentiality does not equal actuality either. Uprooting an oak is different from unearthing an acorn.

 

 

 

There. I fixed it for you.

[kelem_ryu]

You can't deny that you are killing something when you abort a baby.

 

 

 

Nevertheless women aborted since ages. Making it illeal will make it just more risky to the health of the mother.

 

 

 

Personally i believe that it is right to kill anything that is inside your body if you want to.

 

 

 

Basically the last statement is my final thought on this topic. I could blather on and on, but this most likely is my final stance on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Let me tell the law in Austria: Abortion is illegal, but there is no punishment as long as you abort until the third? month.

 

 

 

A creature living inside you is no more than a cancer, a tumor, a parasite if it is unwanted. A woman has the right to get rid of it, in the same way she has the right to get rid of a cancer. I am completly pro-choice on the issue. Potentiality does not equal actuality either. Uprooting an oak is different from unearthing an acorn.

 

 

 

Nah. You can't really say it this way, because a baby probably won't kill the mother. Also the people who argue wheter an embryo is sentinent or not will tear you into pieces.

 

 

 

Still an embryo is an organism that feeds off the mother. She has to eat enough to support both her and the baby. Despite that an embryo isn't a parasite because it is philogenetically ident (just looked up the definition), although this part of the definition just seems to be there to exclude embryos.

[FuBai]

You can't deny that you are killing something when you abort a baby.

 

 

 

Nevertheless women aborted since ages. Making it illeal will make it just more risky to the health of the mother.

 

 

 

Personally i believe that it is right to kill anything that is inside your body if you want to.

 

 

 

Basically the last statement is my final thought on this topic. I could blather on and on, but this most likely is my final stance on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Let me tell the law in Austria: Abortion is illegal, but there is no punishment as long as you abort until the third? month.

 

 

 

A creature living inside you is no more than a cancer, a tumor, a parasite if it is unwanted. A woman has the right to get rid of it, in the same way she has the right to get rid of a cancer. I am completly pro-choice on the issue. Potentiality does not equal actuality either. Uprooting an oak is different from unearthing an acorn.

 

 

 

Nah. You can't really say it this way, because a baby probably won't kill the mother. Also the people who argue wheter an embryo is sentinent or not will tear you into pieces.

 

 

 

Still an embryo is an organism that feeds off the mother. She has to eat enough to support both her and the baby. Despite that an embryo isn't a parasite because it is philogenetically ident (just looked up the definition), although this part of the definition just seems to be there to exclude embryos.

 

 

 

I beleive I said "no more than" which is not nesecarily equal to. A cancer may kill the mother, but this is an irrelevance. What is relevant is that it is an unwanted part of thier body, and the mother has the right to eject it. AN embyo may not be defined as a parasite by a dictionary or a scientific journal, but it is still an unwanted creature drawing its life from a host.

[kelem_ryu]

hm.. okay, but cancer is always unwanted. Embryos are sometimes wanted, sometimes not.

[Guest GhostRanger]

I beleive I said "no more than" which is not nesecarily equal to. A cancer may kill the mother, but this is an irrelevance. What is relevant is that it is an unwanted part of thier body, and the mother has the right to eject it. AN embyo may not be defined as a parasite by a dictionary or a scientific journal, but it is still an unwanted creature drawing its life from a host.

 

 

 

If you don't think it's actually like a cancer, tumor, or parasite then don't say it is. Say it is the same as an unwanted body part - don't compare it to three different things that are unwanted because they kill you. Compare it to something more relevant, like clipping your toenails or cutting your hair. It's not defined as a parasite because it's not - if you're trying to make a point, use accurate language please.

 

 

 

Despite that an embryo isn't a parasite because it is philogenetically ident (just looked up the definition),

 

 

 

Man, that's obnoxiously self-righteous. Why do you think we don't know what that means? Do you honestly think you're that smart that you know all these words other people don't know? We don't need to be told to look up words we don't know, and we don't need you to assume we don't know things.

[kelem_ryu]

I beleive I said "no more than" which is not nesecarily equal to. A cancer may kill the mother, but this is an irrelevance. What is relevant is that it is an unwanted part of thier body, and the mother has the right to eject it. AN embyo may not be defined as a parasite by a dictionary or a scientific journal, but it is still an unwanted creature drawing its life from a host.

 

 

 

If you don't think it's actually like a cancer, tumor, or parasite then don't say it is. Say it is the same as an unwanted body part - don't compare it to three different things that are unwanted because they kill you. Compare it to something more relevant, like clipping your toenails or cutting your hair. It's not defined as a parasite because it's not - if you're trying to make a point, use accurate language please.

 

 

 

Despite that an embryo isn't a parasite because it is philogenetically ident (just looked up the definition),

 

 

 

Man, that's obnoxiously self-righteous. Why do you think we don't know what that means? Do you honestly think you're that smart that you know all these words other people don't know? We don't need to be told to look up words we don't know, and we don't need you to assume we don't know things.

 

 

 

 

 

Well actually i wanted to agree that an embryo IS a parasite. To be save i looked up the definition of a parasite.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't be so hot headed Ranger!

[Guest GhostRanger]

Don't be so hot headed Ranger!

 

 

 

Don't call me 'Ranger'?

[apinagez]

From cancer we came and to cancer we shall return.

[Guest GhostRanger]

From cancer we came and to cancer we shall return.

 

 

 

If I didn't already have such an awesome apinagez quote in my sig, that one would definitely get put in there.

[Viktorkrum77]

Again Mad, that's what I would like to happen to myself in such situation. I would give up on my free choice in order to be relieved of such a tough upcoming life.

 

I agree with you there's an age limit for abortion to be acceptable, too.

 

 

 

Please notice I'm looking at the problem from my perspective. In Brazil, a children born in those conditions would probably get involved with drugs and violence and be killed by drugdealers or by the police before he reached legal majority.

 

His only chance of success would be becoming a football player, which is extremely unlikely.

 

 

 

Then the real issue isn't allowing abortion, but rather establishing support structures so that babies who live are given a fighting chance. This means education reform, prison reform, etc etc :D

 

 

 

And as Apinagaz said, not going to happen. This stuff takes time, lots of it. And most importantly, money.

 

 

 

Now Mad, I do not know your age, but I'm sure you are aware that taxes are high, and I'm sure you wouldn't want them to sky rocket even more.

 

 

 

If we implement such drastic changes and improvements, it's going to cost loads of loads of money.

 

 

 

It's sad actually, improvement costs money, seems like everything does now-a-days.

[Guest GhostRanger]

And as MPC said, not going to happen. This stuff takes time, lots of it. And most importantly, money.

 

 

 

MPC said that? You sure?