The abortion debate

[Necromagus]

So in the three years that this topic has been going on... has anything new been added?

[NorthernHero]

Laws and Religion follow the same trend of Retribution. Being punished for sins or crimes you commit. Therefore it is rational to think Law came straight out of Religion. However unfair or fair it was.

 

 

 

If you read 'The Merchant of Venice' By Shakespeare you'll see the laws are anti-semittic (sp?) and pro christian. If this isn't based off religion then i dont know what is...

 

 

 

The world is based off Religion. What is Religion? A Person's beliefs.

 

 

 

Someone who is atheist still has beliefs, morals therefore he believes in a higher power who will punish him for doing wrong.

 

 

 

You can't deny that there isn't a higher power if its in logical or not logical to believe so. I'll say it now, i am an atheist but i do know that i am in fear of something. Everyone is afraid of something. And i am fearful of retribution. That is why i will not commit the crimes i have wished to many times.

 

 

 

Atheists don't believe higher power will punish them if they do wrong. Can't you just accept that some people actually don't do bad things because it will make them feel bad and they can relate to the other person. Not because they fear something will happen to themselves.

[assassin_696]

Stop pigeonholing atheists, atheism tells you nothing about that person's beliefs.

[Rebdragon]

The world is based off Religion. What is Religion? A Person's beliefs.

 

 

NO.

 

 

 

Hope you were able to read that, 'cause I don't think it goes any bigger.

 

 

 

Oh, and please tell me that you have reasons beyond fear of the unknown for doing good things, 'cause that's just scary. Honestly, can you say that the only thing holding you back from killing someone is the thought that there might be a hell, no matter how small the chance?

 

 

 

If so, what the hell is wrong with you?

[amalgam]

pro-choice. no-one has the right to use my body without my consent.

some may argue that a foetus is a potential body and aborting it means killing it without its consent.

 

 

 

I don't really have a stance on abortion but I'm all for sexual education and protection to cut down on it.

 

 

 

yet, a foetus is incapable of giving consent, considering it has no functional brain to think with, so any decisions regarding it transfer to its nearest relative, i.e. the woman who's body it is inhabiting.

 

 

 

much the same as sending an animal to slaughter. an animal is incapable of giving consent for its own killing, so that transfers to its owner.

 

 

 

 

 

i agree with you on the education thing, the amount of ignorance out there about sex and contraception is astounding.

 

 

 

i personally believe that contraception should be free at point of use for everyone.

[warren211]

~So, a thread back from 2004, when the Sith was a mod, and Lionheart wrote leik a nubz.~

 

 

 

The only exception i'd say in abortion is in rape. the baby is born because of a malicious crime, not an act of love.

 

Let's say I'm in a wild party, OK? Both me and this girl that has a crush on me get too drunk, and have sex. The girl gets pregnant and drops out of school because the insults of her classmates and the economic burden a child is. Of course, the mother will unconsciously hate the child because of what he caused to her, etc. The child will have no responsible parent figures to look up to, he won't be loved as he ought to.

 

 

 

That baby wouldn't be the affect of an act of love, would it? According to your argument, why shouldn't the girl get the chance to undergo abortion?

 

 

 

Solution? Don't get drunk underage, don't have premarital sex. Why shouldn't the girl get a chance to undergo abortion? she had chances before having sex. she blew them all for a night of fun. and besides, in rape the woman was not willing, she might not be physically ready for a child which is why she doesn't have one, then a baby is forced into her. If you want to say rape and an uncaring mother has the same result, an unwanted kid, there's always the option of adoption. There are some parents who would die for a child but cannot have one. Meanwhile, there are teens out there who can have a child, end up having one, and instead of having the child and giving it to someone who could care for it, decides to take its life because its easier. again, in rape it would be pretty unfair to force the woman to have the baby when it was not her fault in the first place, she had no choices. the girl getting drunk and had premarital sex HAD choices, but tossed them all away.

[rushrock]

I think that it's perfectly reasonable once you draw that solid line between when a fetus feels pain and when it doesn't. Life isn't so black and white that you can say "Oh, all babies need to live and people need to be more careful." There are lots of complications with everything. So I'm for abortion.

 

 

 

I think in most cases that is one of the key debates. However, it is extremely tough to figure out when the fetus feels pain or not.

 

Yes, but haven't they already found that date?

[warri0r45]

thats really sad, you cant say the bible cant be applied to modern day society because its scriptures like the Bible (Christian), Qu'ran(Muslim), Bhagavat Gita(Hindu) that stops the world from descending into complete anarchy. Every country has been united by religion in some way people argue that people are divided by religion more than united.

 

Hey? Then what would you call the increasingly secular countries such as Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Japan, France, etc? Are they just some freakish anomalies to you? They at least prove diminishing religiosity does not turn a society to crap. IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢d hardly see how unity into these secluded tribes called ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâreligionsÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ and tribal wars between them over the centuries and still today could be called unity. To me, exclusive unity is not unity. ItÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s a crock. If you want some tired old examples, you neednÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t look further than the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, modern day Islamic jihadists who want to kill the infidels and return the world to their state of Islam, Catholic-Pretestant terrorism in Northern Ireland, etc.

 

Teachings in any religion and holy book follows the same trend. Trying to supress the brutal, savage nature of man by giving him guidelines in the way he should live his life, make himself happy without hurting others...

Damn, you make us sound so unevolved both biologically and culturally. As above, we donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t need a religious book to make us moral beings. ItÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s interesting that someone can read through the bible, put their finger on the passage ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹Ãâdo unto others as youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢d have them do unto youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ and say good while a quick read of Leviticus ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ killing disrespectful kids, stoning wizards to death, killing gays, stoning blasphemers to death and burning [bleep] in fire and we say bad. So what should that tell you? That we as human have a moral sense and a holy book as an absolute source of morality is irrelevant. I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t know about you, but I think thatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s a good thing. Imagine if we didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t think Leviticus was a moral atrocity and we took this command by Jesus seriously (Matthew 5):

 

 

 

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

 

The only people you need guidelines from are your parents.

 

Laws and Religion follow the same trend of Retribution. Being punished for sins or crimes you commit. Therefore it is rational to think Law came straight out of Religion. However unfair or fair it was.

 

 

 

If you read 'The Merchant of Venice' By Shakespeare you'll see the laws are anti-semittic (sp?) and pro christian. If this isn't based off religion then i dont know what is...

 

 

 

The world is based off Religion. What is Religion? A Person's beliefs.

 

 

 

Someone who is atheist still has beliefs, morals therefore he believes in a higher power who will punish him for doing wrong.

 

 

 

You can't deny that there isn't a higher power if its in logical or not logical to believe so. I'll say it now, i am an atheist but i do know that i am in fear of something. Everyone is afraid of something. And i am fearful of retribution. That is why i will not commit the crimes i have wished to many times.

 

You are so wrong there. Atheists donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe in divine retribution. I think your views of why people are moral are skewed. I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t act ethically because of divine retribution, I do so because I rather a peaceful coexistence with my fellow man. I can argue this is biologically instilled if youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢d like, however that pesky old tribalism in the form of religion these days isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t helping humanity much. By the way perhaps you should differentiate between how you define ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâreligionÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ and organized religion.

[Defender2516]

What the hell? What is this.. battle of the trolls?

 

 

 

I think you all suck. (joking)

 

 

 

well anyways, on to the topic.

 

 

 

I think abortion is wrong, no matter how you slice the orange, someone's once to be life who could have probably cured aids, has ended.

 

 

 

Now what I find intresting on girls is they say "no one should use my body without consent" but they let boys use it all the time. Then when a baby just so-pops-up, uh oh, abortion time. Kinda hypocritical when they already knew the consequences.

 

 

 

Rape cases, however, are different situations.

[mrpez]

Christian organizations maintain that "life" begins at conception (which I think is ridiculous. Just because conception took place does not mean pregnancy will follow.)

 

 

 

Most doctors, however, insist that true life does not begin until the presence of a heartbeat, which is much later in pregnancy.

 

 

 

Abortion should be allowed, and will not be banned in America due to our love of freedom of choice. After all, America was founded on and because of a want for freedom of speech, choice, and decision.

 

 

 

I'm glad I'm male though...

[BlueTear]

Solution? Don't get drunk underage, don't have premarital sex. Why shouldn't the girl get a chance to undergo abortion? she had chances before having sex. she blew them all for a night of fun. and besides, in rape the woman was not willing, she might not be physically ready for a child which is why she doesn't have one, then a baby is forced into her.

And thus you wave your true colours; It's not about preserving the life of an innocent child - who is just an innocent when it comes to rape as when it comes to unintended pregnancies, yet you consider one to be morally justified and one not to aboty - it's about punishing the woman for having the audacity to make her own choices regarding her own body.

 

 

 

Her body. Her choice. When the foetus can be sustained without her body, then it's an independant entity with it's own rights. Until that point, it is her body.

[Flame_guy3]

Laws and Religion follow the same trend of Retribution. Being punished for sins or crimes you commit. Therefore it is rational to think Law came straight out of Religion. However unfair or fair it was.

 

 

 

If you read 'The Merchant of Venice' By Shakespeare you'll see the laws are anti-semittic (sp?) and pro christian. If this isn't based off religion then i dont know what is...

 

 

 

The world is based off Religion. What is Religion? A Person's beliefs.

 

 

 

Someone who is atheist still has beliefs, morals therefore he believes in a higher power who will punish him for doing wrong.

 

 

 

You can't deny that there isn't a higher power if its in logical or not logical to believe so. I'll say it now, i am an atheist but i do know that i am in fear of something. Everyone is afraid of something. And i am fearful of retribution. That is why i will not commit the crimes i have wished to many times.

 

 

 

Atheists don't believe higher power will punish them if they do wrong. Can't you just accept that some people actually don't do bad things because it will make them feel bad and they can relate to the other person. Not because they fear something will happen to themselves.

Your telling me that there is NO Fear involved in any of your judgements. Okay maybe not fear in God or whatever but what about the law? What will your peers and friends think of you? What about your family?

 

 

 

If you tell me there is no fear involved in your decision making process either your some kind of complex higher human being than all of us or trying to be some kind of 'no fear no [cabbage]' kinda guy? Yes i admit i have morals in me and i hate to do wrong things because of morals as well, but fear is also what constructs these morals.

 

 

 

If someone doesn't want to do something then it is because of their judgement. Judgement is based upon what you feel are the consequences and the fruits of your actions. If the cons outweigh the pros and your not willing to take the chance its because of fear of taking the cons.

 

 

 

Early man had an idea of higher power. We can see this in aboriginal art people believe in spirits, demons, monsters and beings that will punish/reward respectively (sp?) for doing right or wrong.

 

 

 

Higher power was instilled into law, fear was instilled into law. And fear is what stops the world running into complete anarchy today.

 

 

 

If you are genuinely not afraid of anything, then your technically not human.

[NorthernHero]

^ Ok I agree with you that fear is normal to human beings, we wouldn't survive without it. And I admit even some of MY decisions are based of fear :P . When I was very poor and I really felt like stealing something, it was the chance that i may been caught doing it stopped me (not that I haven't stealed anything in my life ever :lol: ). Everything is relative thought, I couldn't imagine myself hurting someone else for no good reason (like self defense), or robbing some small store and make a bankruptcy for the storekeeper and scaring the hell out of him.

 

 

 

By the way, why were we discussing this? I kind of lost that.

[Utopianflame]

but fear is also what constructs these morals.

 

So fear constructs and guides your morality? In short you are saying that your personal morality is defined as "What I can get away with", forgive us if not everyone is so self-centered.

 

 

 

Early man had an idea of higher power. We can see this in aboriginal art people believe in spirits, demons, monsters and beings that will punish/reward respectively (sp?) for doing right or wrong.

 

 

 

Humanity has an instinctive fear of the unknown, we create such things to cover what we don't understand, hence we ended up with the early polythesitic religions where ever natural phenonemom and occurance has it's own diety/spirit/demon.

 

 

 

And fear is what stops the world running into complete anarchy today.

 

 

 

Fear when backed up with uncertainty (often from the unkown, which conviently of course is often the source of the fear in the first place) creates panic, panic will take any given society to anarchy far faster than the lack of fear and the feeling impunity it instills in some people (such as yourself from your words so far) can ever do so.

 

 

 

If you are genuinely not afraid of anything, then your technically not human.

 

 

 

Mind giving the rest of us your definition of human, i'd be interested in seeing it.

[Flame_guy3]

If you are genuinely not afraid of anything, then your technically not human.

 

 

 

Mind giving the rest of us your definition of human, i'd be interested in seeing it.

 

 

 

Emotions is what makes up existance for human beings. We know its true for other animals as well. Mammals cry when they lose their offspring, Birds get angry when their eggs get broken etc etc.

 

 

 

Emotions is in fact the very reason we all live and breathe today. Love, Hate etc. These emotions in turn determine our actions and no matter how rational a thinker you are emotions get involved in every day life. An emotional purpose to everything.

 

 

 

Fear is one of the most vital, most powerful emotions as it limits ourselves. Some people choose to break certain 'fear barriers' and others choose to just be scared. But no matter how many things you do that you have been scared of doing, you'll always be scared of something.

 

 

 

Fear, Love and Curiosity i think are probably the three biggest drives in human society. The love for wealth tempts you to steal. The curiosity drives you to steal. The Fear deters you from stealing.

 

 

 

If you tell me you have no fear of doing anything then i clearly wont believe you.

[StrOwez]

pro-choice. no-one has the right to use my body without my consent.

some may argue that a foetus is a potential body and aborting it means killing it without its consent.

 

 

 

I don't really have a stance on abortion but I'm all for sexual education and protection to cut down on it.

 

 

 

yet, a foetus is incapable of giving consent, considering it has no functional brain to think with, so any decisions regarding it transfer to its nearest relative, i.e. the woman who's body it is inhabiting.

 

 

 

much the same as sending an animal to slaughter. an animal is incapable of giving consent for its own killing, so that transfers to its owner.

 

I agree with you on the fact that the foetus can't make decisions however it still has potential to be a fully functional human and a constructive member of society unlike the animals who will never be able to communicate with us.

[Iamdan]

I think until a baby has developed enough to survive outside the womans body, it is still part of that womans body, and she has every right to do what she wants with it.

 

 

 

It is unfair to bring an unwanted child into the world, it's not fair on the child.

 

 

 

A fetus is a life, but it isn't a really human being yet.

[____]

If you tell me you have no fear of doing anything then i clearly wont believe you.

That's your choice. But I'm going to disagree with you on the basis (and mel could probably back me up to a certain degree) that there are people in the world who have refined control over their emotions to a point where it's almost like they do not exist.

[Utopianflame]

If you tell me you have no fear of doing anything then i clearly wont believe you.

 

 

 

Whether you believe it or not has no bearing on whether it is true or not.

 

 

 

I note that you don't seem to be disagreeing the idea that your morals are defined solely by what you can get away with.

[Grim_Jokes]

What's the hub-hub? You perform abortion everytime you use contraception?

 

 

 

How you make ask? Simple. At the end, you still take away chance from a life.

 

 

 

Oh, and you also take it away by not having sex with every woman that walks out there. After all, all those million sperms cells are potential children? Too bad they die whether you [bleep] or not.

 

 

 

That's my stance on abortion.

 

 

 

Fear is one of the most vital, most powerful emotions as it limits ourselves. Some people choose to break certain 'fear barriers' and others choose to just be scared. But no matter how many things you do that you have been scared of doing, you'll always be scared of something.

 

 

 

Fear, Love and Curiosity i think are probably the three biggest drives in human society. The love for wealth tempts you to steal. The curiosity drives you to steal. The Fear deters you from stealing.

 

 

 

If you tell me you have no fear of doing anything then i clearly wont believe you.

 

 

 

Fear is a safety precaution. We use it to survive.

 

 

 

Curiousty is to satisfy that nagging need to know.

 

 

 

Love is considered a mental disease by some psychologists, and I think it's just an idea shoved down our throat by the religious nuts to keep monogamy alive and kicking.