Curing the Disease by Killing the Patient

[qeltar]

(Originally published on TruthScape and copied here for the benefit of the Tip.It community and to spur discussion.)

 

 

 

The TruthScape Soapbox - Issue #2 - Curing the Disease by Killing the Patient

 

 

 

 

Published: November 21, 2007

 

 

 

With yesterdayÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s restrictions involving single player dueling, Jagex has confirmed its recent emphasis on getting tough on real world trading (RWT). This sounds good on paper, but the implementation has turned out to be rather unsavory. The debacle that has resulted from the companyÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s ham-fisted efforts show that it is set on continuing down a path that will do more harm than good to its customers.

 

 

 

This essay is not about the duel arena changes specifically, but more generally about how those changes represent a much larger problem at Jagex. The company appears to be determined to repeat every mistake made by every reactionary authority in history. As I will show, the predictable end result of misguided and ineffective efforts to stop crime is simply more harm and inconvenience to innocents, with little effect on the intended targets.

 

 

 

The Road to Hell, but Paved with What?

 

 

 

First, a quick recap for those of you who have been under a rock for the last 24 hours. (Or those who have a real life, unlike me.) :) On November 20, 2007, Jagex made significant changes to the duel arena feature. One change was adding a new multi-player tournament option, an update that had been anticipated; what was not anticipated was an overhaul to the existing single player duel arena, the most important aspect of which is a limit on stakes of 3k per player over any 15 minute period. Yes, you heard that right: you can now stake no more than 12k of gold or itemsÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[chaosgone]

Good article. You raise some good points. You are correct, real world traders will just find a new way to sell their gold if they can't use the duel arena anymore. Also, what about duelers who lost the way they make money? How many of them will try to buy gold now?

[Dharockslayer]

ok i didnt read the topic cuz it was too long but i love the name!

 

OMG yay free post count? \ [/sarcasm] <_<

 

 

 

Ive red the article, and yes, I do agree with it. Jagex is using far too extreme methods. I don't stake myself, but some time when I felt like taking a small gamble I would simply take my dds and 200k and give it a go.

 

 

 

Nobody is going to bother with the dueling arena anymore. Simply because:

 

-1v1 staking is ruined

 

-In a tournament, the lvl 126's often win or those with the best armour.

 

If only the most supreme can win, why would the lesser people bother staking 1m? It'll end up with another fight pits. Another abandonned place.

 

 

 

Real world item traders still use the wilderniss, what are you going to do about that Jagex? Make a brick wall instead of the ditch?

 

Or, I dunno, make it so you can only bring mithrill or lower armour to battle RWIT.

 

 

 

They've killed a small bit of the RWITers, but they've killed the whole staking community. Nice :roll:

[Peronix]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

[Peronix]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

What? How could they possibly screw up staking more? They KILLED it.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

What? How could they possibly screw up staking more? They KILLED it.

 

 

 

Yes, your point being, what?

 

Stakers don't own RS, they need to shut up and get over it. And quick.

 

The comic raise up to 5k per 15 minutes should be a big sign, enough for even dumb people to understand that Jagex has made their decision, and if not respected, than stop playing. And by all means stop paying $5. I'm sure even Jagex would rather miss out on money than keep having a barrel of rotten apples intent on spoiling the bunch.

[casthewiz]

Good article. You raise some good points. You are correct, real world traders will just find a new way to sell their gold if they can't use the duel arena anymore. Also, what about duelers who lost the way they make money? How many of them will try to buy gold now?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure Jagex thought of how to deal with that... (sarcasm).

 

 

 

Andi if they haven't, I'm sure they'll think of something. Probably a limit on how many trees you can cut or how many people you can kill in the wilderness for an hour... Heck, why don't we just turn runescape into a large chat room... The way the updates are going, it looks like that's happening.

[Dharockslayer]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

Actually, they listen to the majority, and the majority is mostly 13-12 year olds who just want to have an "Ub0r pwnz0r" account with 1200 blue partyhats.

 

 

 

These people don't understand the game enough to actually make changes. But some people here at tif actually try to understand how the game will flex if an update is made. How the market will be effected, how pking is effected, how skilling is effected, all sorts of variables.

 

 

 

If Jagex listened to intelligent players more then the masses, then yes, the game would improve loads.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Good article. You raise some good points. You are correct, real world traders will just find a new way to sell their gold if they can't use the duel arena anymore. Also, what about duelers who lost the way they make money? How many of them will try to buy gold now?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure Jagex thought of how to deal with that... (sarcasm).

 

 

 

Duellers are mentally impaired if they can't think of another way to make money.

 

And it will be their own effing fault if they stay poor now.

[casthewiz]

Good article. You raise some good points. You are correct, real world traders will just find a new way to sell their gold if they can't use the duel arena anymore. Also, what about duelers who lost the way they make money? How many of them will try to buy gold now?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure Jagex thought of how to deal with that... (sarcasm).

 

 

 

Duellers are mentally impaired if they can't think of another way to make money.

 

And it will be their own effing fault if they stay poor now.

 

 

 

 

 

Well yes, but making players poorer generally leads to more players breaking the rules to get richer. 15 out of 16 duellers may go work on skills or hunt monsters, but that one dueller may go to a pay for gold site to get rich quick, since their method of getting rich quick is now gone.

[qeltar]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

Do you think you could possibly explain *why* you write off the whole article as being "more negative effect in the long run"?

[FooK-A-Ji]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

Actually, they listen to the majority, and the majority is mostly 13-12 year olds who just want to have an "Ub0r pwnz0r" account with 1200 blue partyhats.

 

 

 

These people don't understand the game enough to actually make changes. But some people here at tif actually try to understand how the game will flex if an update is made. How the market will be effected, how pking is effected, how skilling is effected, all sorts of variables.

 

 

 

If Jagex listened to intelligent players more then the masses, then yes, the game would improve loads.

 

 

 

You only speak half-truth though.

 

I know many don't agree with this post, and they aren't dumb 13-12 year olds, who's way of winning a debate is who can scream the longest and loudest.

 

So fact of the matter is, that intelligent people also disagree, meaning we wouldn't get much further from the state we're in. I don't think Jagex should listen to anyone at all except themselves.

 

 

 

Fun though, in 2001 jagex actually DID listen to the intelligent players, more than the masses. and still rs2'ers say that their game is better.. maybe now ppl know why RSC is better and will remain better in the eyes of those who played it.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

Do you think you could possibly explain *why* you write off the whole article as being "more negative effect in the long run"?

 

 

 

I thought it was obvious that this post is like all the others.. An attempt to undermine Jagex' authority, decisions and pretty much their image as a good company.

 

For gods sake the post even mentions WTC 9/11.

[Adam007]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

What? How could they possibly screw up staking more? They KILLED it.

 

 

 

Yes, your point being, what?

 

Stakers don't own RS, they need to shut up and get over it. And quick.

 

The comic raise up to 5k per 15 minutes should be a big sign, enough for even dumb people to understand that Jagex has made their decision, and if not respected, than stop playing. And by all means stop paying $5. I'm sure even Jagex would rather miss out on money than keep having a barrel of rotten apples intent on spoiling the bunch.

 

Fook, we understand that you think just dm'ing in the wild is fine, but jagex had a great system in place that people could all meet together and have duels. Whether or not a duel can occur in the wild like it would in the arena has no bearing. The point is that jagex had a great thing going for people. Those people invested a ton of time into it. And jagex just took it away and ruined the practicality of it, turning the duel arena into another gimmicky minigame. Just because it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it doesn't effect a lot of other people. I don't know what you have against stakers, calling them rotten apples, but to me, they have a genuine reason to be upset. They play rs for staking, just like you play rs for whatever reason you do. What if they took away the reason you play rs? You'd complain. And the last thing you'd want would be stakers laughing at you and calling you an idiot, telling you to go play another game and give up because you're not worth it to jagex.

 

 

 

Qeltar, great article. I was thinking of writing something along the same lines, but you did a perfect job. Really though, with the way they're approaching rwt, what'll be next? Protecting us from the evils of drop trading by limiting us to only be able to drop 3k on the floor at once? Only allowing us to drop 1 item per hour? Making it so we can only drop items at certain predetermined locations? They've already made items like spinach rolls needlessly untradable, what else are they going to do? By taking these drastic measures to protect the 'honest players,' they're ruining the game for them. I can't help ask if the end really justify the means.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

What? How could they possibly screw up staking more? They KILLED it.

 

 

 

Yes, your point being, what?

 

Stakers don't own RS, they need to shut up and get over it. And quick.

 

The comic raise up to 5k per 15 minutes should be a big sign, enough for even dumb people to understand that Jagex has made their decision, and if not respected, than stop playing. And by all means stop paying $5. I'm sure even Jagex would rather miss out on money than keep having a barrel of rotten apples intent on spoiling the bunch.

 

Fook, we understand that you think just dm'ing in the wild is fine, but jagex had a great system in place that people could all meet together and have duels. Whether or not a duel can occur in the wild like it would in the arena has no bearing. The point is that jagex had a great thing going for people. Those people invested a ton of time into it. And jagex just took it away and ruined the practicality of it, turning the duel arena into another gimmicky minigame. Just because it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it doesn't effect a lot of other people.

 

 

 

Qeltar, great article. I was thinking of writing something along the same lines, but you did a perfect job. Really though, with the way they're approaching rwt, what'll be next? Protecting us from drop trading by limiting us to only be able to drop 3k on the floor at once? Only allowing us to drop 1 item per hour? Making it so we can only drop items at certain predetermined locations? They've already made items like spinach rolls needlessly untradable, what else are they going to do? By taking these drastic measures to protect the 'honest players,' they're ruining the game for them. I can't help ask if the end really justify the means.

 

 

 

I understand that YOU think there was a stable duel system running.

 

 

 

But.

 

Is it rational that a level 50 has more money than someone level 99 smithing who worked for it?

 

Is it rational that a level 50 has BILLIONS worth in items, gained in few months, when someone else playing the exact same game for longer has practically nothing, seeing as the person wanted to .. hmm lets just say construct, or do smithing.

 

 

 

I'm sure you can see how imbalanced that is.

 

 

 

It was ridiculous that stakers, a mere different kind of fighter, with stats so obvious and so easy to get, could be the most powerful people in RS, moneywise.

 

Lets face it, its only because people can't make millions in a matter of minutes, that they whine like female dogs now. Well news flash, people played before staking was changed, and they certainly will AFTER. I know I will, and I hope that the ones who played for staking ONLY, actually do quit. Either that or stop whining.

[Alg]

just because it mentions 9/11, it's less an editorial...?

 

 

 

it's not that they listen to the majority, it's that they listen to the ones that whine the loudest.

 

the majority may very well be high level players, but,as a whole, they're the ones that remain fairly silent about the issues. they are easily drowned out by the (possibly) few that know how to whine until they get their way, regardless of whether or not they know what they're whining about.

 

-could be wrong though

[FooK-A-Ji]

just because it mentions 9/11, it's less an editorial...?

 

 

 

it's not that they listen to the majority, it's that they listen to the ones that whine the loudest.

 

the majority may very well be high level players, but,as a whole, they're the ones that remain fairly silent about the issues. they are easily drowned out by the (possibly) few that know how to whine until they get their way, regardless of whether or not they know what they're whining about.

 

-could be wrong though

 

 

 

I'm just saying that its tasteless to mention 9/11 on a gaming forum that has nothing to do with it, much less draw parallels between the two, simply to try to win ppl over in a debate.

[Dragonlordjl]

Haha, I don't know what to think about [bleep]ex er.... I mean... Jagex, anymore. They have displayed so many times in the past that they are obsessed with money and value it over everything else, but then they go and do this... Which resulted in probably a good 15% or more of the RS population canceling their subscriptions. One would think they would've been able to foresee that result... But they probably just thought to themselves "Oh, they'll get over it. They always do *snicker*"

 

 

 

Also, as you mentioned the senseless obsession to stop RWT, it makes me fear what the Grand Exchange will be like. Will they go as far as to remove player-to-player trades, and force everybody to use the GE? Will they set maximum prices for items, which are completely unrepresentative of the actual market prices? Honestly, nothing Jagex does anymore surprises me. They have proven time and time and time and time again that they are completely and utterly out of touch with their player base, which only spells disaster, regardless of what updates they make.

[Adam007]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

What? How could they possibly screw up staking more? They KILLED it.

 

 

 

Yes, your point being, what?

 

Stakers don't own RS, they need to shut up and get over it. And quick.

 

The comic raise up to 5k per 15 minutes should be a big sign, enough for even dumb people to understand that Jagex has made their decision, and if not respected, than stop playing. And by all means stop paying $5. I'm sure even Jagex would rather miss out on money than keep having a barrel of rotten apples intent on spoiling the bunch.

 

Fook, we understand that you think just dm'ing in the wild is fine, but jagex had a great system in place that people could all meet together and have duels. Whether or not a duel can occur in the wild like it would in the arena has no bearing. The point is that jagex had a great thing going for people. Those people invested a ton of time into it. And jagex just took it away and ruined the practicality of it, turning the duel arena into another gimmicky minigame. Just because it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it doesn't effect a lot of other people.

 

 

 

Qeltar, great article. I was thinking of writing something along the same lines, but you did a perfect job. Really though, with the way they're approaching rwt, what'll be next? Protecting us from drop trading by limiting us to only be able to drop 3k on the floor at once? Only allowing us to drop 1 item per hour? Making it so we can only drop items at certain predetermined locations? They've already made items like spinach rolls needlessly untradable, what else are they going to do? By taking these drastic measures to protect the 'honest players,' they're ruining the game for them. I can't help ask if the end really justify the means.

 

 

 

I understand that YOU think there was a stable duel system running.

 

 

 

But.

 

Is it rational that a level 50 has more money than someone level 99 smithing who worked for it?

 

Is it rational that a level 50 has BILLIONS worth in items, gained in few months, when someone else playing the exact same game for longer has practically nothing, seeing as the person wanted to .. hmm lets just say construct, or do smithing.

 

 

 

I'm sure you can see how imbalanced that is.

 

 

 

It was ridiculous that stakers, a mere different kind of fighter, with stats so obvious and so easy to get, could be the most powerful people in RS, moneywise.

 

Lets face it, its only because people can't make millions in a matter of minutes, that they whine like female dogs now. Well news flash, people played before staking was changed, and they certainly will AFTER. I know I will, and I hope that the ones who played for staking ONLY, actually do quit. Either that or stop whining.

 

I'm not whining. Why would I be whining? This update doesn't effect me. I don't play rs anymore. But I'm able to realize when jagex did an idiotic thing. You think that since the duel arena allowed people to make millions in a short period of time, it's not a legitimate part of the game, nor a legitimate way to make money. But you're not against dm'ing in the wild? Regardless, the amount of money they make should have no bearing on anything.

 

 

 

What about merchanting? Because they can make more money than a smith can, merchanting's a bad part of the game? What ever happened to playing the game how you want to play it, making what you want to make out of it? That's what the game's about. Not you deciding what's a decent way to make money and what isn't.

 

 

 

I don't understand why you think dueling isn't a legitimate way to make money, but it's been implemented as part of the game for several years now. And people have been playing with that ever since they joined. Yes, we've been around when dueling wasn't around, but what's that matter? It's around now, and it made no sense whatsoever for jagex to remove it.

[casthewiz]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

What? How could they possibly screw up staking more? They KILLED it.

 

 

 

Yes, your point being, what?

 

Stakers don't own RS, they need to shut up and get over it. And quick.

 

The comic raise up to 5k per 15 minutes should be a big sign, enough for even dumb people to understand that Jagex has made their decision, and if not respected, than stop playing. And by all means stop paying $5. I'm sure even Jagex would rather miss out on money than keep having a barrel of rotten apples intent on spoiling the bunch.

 

Fook, we understand that you think just dm'ing in the wild is fine, but jagex had a great system in place that people could all meet together and have duels. Whether or not a duel can occur in the wild like it would in the arena has no bearing. The point is that jagex had a great thing going for people. Those people invested a ton of time into it. And jagex just took it away and ruined the practicality of it, turning the duel arena into another gimmicky minigame. Just because it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it doesn't effect a lot of other people.

 

 

 

Qeltar, great article. I was thinking of writing something along the same lines, but you did a perfect job. Really though, with the way they're approaching rwt, what'll be next? Protecting us from drop trading by limiting us to only be able to drop 3k on the floor at once? Only allowing us to drop 1 item per hour? Making it so we can only drop items at certain predetermined locations? They've already made items like spinach rolls needlessly untradable, what else are they going to do? By taking these drastic measures to protect the 'honest players,' they're ruining the game for them. I can't help ask if the end really justify the means.

 

 

 

I understand that YOU think there was a stable duel system running.

 

 

 

But.

 

Is it rational that a level 50 has more money than someone level 99 smithing who worked for it?

 

Is it rational that a level 50 has BILLIONS worth in items, gained in few months, when someone else playing the exact same game for longer has practically nothing, seeing as the person wanted to .. hmm lets just say construct, or do smithing.

 

 

 

I'm sure you can see how imbalanced that is.

 

 

 

It was ridiculous that stakers, a mere different kind of fighter, with stats so obvious and so easy to get, could be the most powerful people in RS, moneywise.

 

Lets face it, its only because people can't make millions in a matter of minutes, that they whine like female dogs now. Well news flash, people played before staking was changed, and they certainly will AFTER. I know I will, and I hope that the ones who played for staking ONLY, actually do quit. Either that or stop whining.

 

I half agree with what you said. The Duel Arena was unstable. Why? Because, you could lose or gain 50 mill in a matter of minutes. This makes it and its users unstably rich or poor. Its like gambling. I have a job, I work hard, does that mean that its unfair that people win money in the lottery? No, its merely an unstable way of making money. You could win the grand prize, or spend thousands of dollars buying losing lottery tickets. Either way, I make a stable income from work. So yes, there are the rich low levels that gained that money in short amounts of time. But there are also those who lost duels and got poor. Somebody who gets 99 smithing is going to make money for sure along the way. Participating in a duel is a 50/50 chance. You either win it all or lose it all. It just depends whether you like to take risks with your money or if you like to make money steadily. (I don't stake btw.)

[Wachtwoord]

I have two (quite) off topic comments:

 

First: I surely think all that killing on the schools and university will continue too if we ban guns. Just as all those gun accidents. But I understand this is a debate on its own and I won't discuss is any further.

 

Second: Why does everyone here hate this change but didn't care about PC change? It's about the same IMO, they did something the majority didn't want and it ruined a good way of training for a lot of people.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Makes no sense bawling your eyes out over something that they won't give back . Raising to 5k is obviously a smack in the face to the whiners, one they deserve, and I'd happily do it IRL to everyone of them with a metal glove.

 

 

 

And you misread my last lines, I'm talking about the stakers to stop whining. If you take it personally its not my affair.

 

 

 

p.s. IMBALANCED, and illegitimate are two different words, where do i mention illegitimate?

[qeltar]

Good read, as always, Qeltar. Sums up my thoughts in a very organized, intelligent manner. I sure hope the guys over at Jagex Towers read this article, and do something about it.

 

 

 

I hope they throw it in the bin.

 

History proves that listening to players and their complaints merely screws it up more.

 

 

 

This post actually does more negative effect in the long run.

 

 

 

Do you think you could possibly explain *why* you write off the whole article as being "more negative effect in the long run"?

 

 

 

I thought it was obvious that this post is like all the others.. An attempt to undermine Jagex' authority, decisions and pretty much their image as a good company.

 

For gods sake the post even mentions WTC 9/11.

 

 

 

So it seems you *cannot* come with any good counter-arguments, you just think my article is bad and that's that. Okay. :)

[Dragonlordjl]

I have two (quite) off topic comments:

 

First: I surely think all that killing on the schools and university will continue too if we ban guns. Just as all those gun accidents. But I understand this is a debate on its own and I won't discuss is any further.

 

Second: Why does everyone here hate this change but didn't care about PC change? It's about the same IMO, they did something the majority didn't want and it ruined a good way of training for a lot of people.

 

 

 

The Pest Control update was needed... It was extremely overpowered experience and was not even meant to replace normal combat for training.

 

 

 

This update was absolutely unnecessary and extreme overkill.