Is God real post your thoughts!

[user1991]

God gave us the choice to do whatever we like. Where do choices come from exactly? That's all there is too it. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? If I make a kitchen knife, and someone uses it to kill people, is it my fault? Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No, It is the murderers' fault, I never intended for someone to kill people with it. God could control us if he wanted, but he wants us to decide for ourselves what we should or shouldn't do. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself!

 

 

 

I love this conversation-

 

 

 

[hide=]The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did".

 

 

 

The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.

 

 

 

Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " "Of course" answered the professor.

 

 

 

The young student stood up and asked : "Professor does Cold exists?"

 

 

 

The professor answered, "What kind of question is that? ...Of course the cold exists... haven't you ever been cold?"

 

 

 

The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot."

 

 

 

"And, does Dark exist?", he continued. The professor answered "Of course". This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness can not. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light."

 

 

 

Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil."

 

 

 

The student responded, Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man.

 

 

 

After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn't answer back.

 

 

 

The young man's name was ALBERT EINSTEIN.[/hide]

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, I got a little one of those myself:

 

 

 

[hide=]A theist on an internet forum posted a ridiculously disingenuous story that blatantly either never happened, or was exaggerated to a preposterous extent.

 

 

 

In this story, he shows a professor, in a position of authority debating arguments about morality and God with his students. The theist, being a moron, strawmans the actual argument against objective morality, turning it into something easily defeatable. The "young" student (he emphasised young to again show us how stupid the professor must be) makes a series of irrelevant arguments concerning "cold" and "dark", proceeding to give a number of loaded questions that presuppose that "cold" and "dark" are actual physical things instead of simply properties of a system or lack thereof. By using the word "exist" he does this, and then when the professor proceeds to say "yes" he says, "no, they are just absences of something else."

 

 

 

He then asks "does evil exist?", again presupposing with his chosen wording that "evil" refers to something physical instead of a concept or property of something arbitrary, the professor says "yes", and the stupid theist says "Ahah! Evil is the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man!", without ever addressing the 1) existence of this "God", again, God's existence is merely presupposed, 2) the phrase "hearts" of man doesn't actually mean anything concrete, and is used simply to reference some sort of vague moral compass, when in actuality "morality" comes from the genetic, and the external situations one occupies, and 3) How God could ever be absent from the "hearts of man". God is everywhere is he not? Unless by "God" you actually mean "self righteous moral certitude." and 4) if God is responsible for everything ever, including everything physical, and if everything happens because of something else, (this includes "choice" and "actions") how God is not responsible for everything we do (including sin).

 

 

 

The professor then apparently "bows his head" (yes, because obviously a professor would not 1) want to examine the arguments closely before conceding his side, and 2) have the capacity to see through the terrible terrible arguments and rhetoric just thrown at him.)

 

 

 

Then, he adds at the bottom that the young student was actually Albert Einstein (which it wasn't, in fact this story never even happened and is unfair both to Einsten as an intellectual and to the countless morons that actually believe it), as if simply because it was Albert Einstein this somehow proves his point without even the need to look at the content of the arguments.

 

 

 

The person who posted this story then proceeded to kill himself after realising how much of a plague he is to the human species.[/hide]

[Wisp]

God gave us the choice to do whatever we like. That's all there is too it. Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. If I make a kitchen knife, and someone uses it to kill people, is it my fault? No, It is the murderers' fault, I never intended for someone to kill people with it. God could control us if he wanted, but he wants us to decide for ourselves what we should or shouldn't do.

 

 

 

I love this conversation-

 

 

 

[hide=]The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did".

 

 

 

The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.

 

 

 

Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " "Of course" answered the professor.

 

 

 

The young student stood up and asked : "Professor does Cold exists?"

 

 

 

The professor answered, "What kind of question is that? ...Of course the cold exists... haven't you ever been cold?"

 

 

 

The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot."

 

 

 

"And, does Dark exist?", he continued. The professor answered "Of course". This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness can not. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light."

 

 

 

Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil."

 

 

 

The student responded, Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man.

 

 

 

After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn't answer back.

 

 

 

The young man's name was ALBERT EINSTEIN.[/hide]

 

I call bull on that quote. Some research shows that that quote was not only not from Einstein, but the logic is flawed too.

 

 

 

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it"

 

That's from a collection of Einsteins various journal entries.

 

 

 

No historians have ever claimed that was true. It's simply another [cabbage] chain letter that's been circulating the web. Next time get a real quote instead of a fake one.

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-on-a-Personal-God.htm

 

That's one link with various quotes about einstein's belief in god. I'm not going to take the time to verify those, but I've seen most of them on several different sites before, and in the actual books where some of them are compiled.

 

As for your actual argument, that's crap too. God, supposedly, is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, and so on.

 

He created everything. the environment Eve supposedly lived in, and most importantly Eve herself. He created it all from nothing, and, even if that itself made sense, that means he was fully responsible for making the persons brain, mind, and conscience. Eve's flaw was temptation, something that, could be traced to her experiences in life, or her brain itself, both of which were created, or indirectly created by god, which leaves her with no true free will.

[Lenticular_J]

Heh. Quoting "Atheism.com". I bet westborobaptist.com is an unbiased source, too.

[user1991]

Heh. Quoting "Atheism.com". I bet westborobaptist.com is an unbiased source, too.

 

 

 

Actually, it's atheism.about.com, which shows that the "atheism" part is simply a directory into which relevant subject matter (such as this) is rightly placed.

 

 

 

We can all be sarcastic Lenticular. You are pretty good at it too. In fact, it's pretty much all you ever do these days.

[Lenticular_J]

Well, long as I'm good at it.

 

 

 

Besides, what are we supposed to do? Present a court case or some [cabbage]? I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, Robert Downy Jr. believes what he believes - how are we supposed to avail in as ridiculous a subject as personal belief? Especially the personal belief of religion, which is right full of idiocy from every person from here to Timbuktu.

[Wisp]

Heh. Quoting "Atheism.com". I bet westborobaptist.com is an unbiased source, too.

 

Here's a source for everything on that page. go crazy.

 

quote 1

 

Quote 2

 

Quote 3

 

quote 4

 

quote 5

 

Quote 6

 

Quote 7

 

Quote 8

 

Quote 9

 

Quote 10

 

Quote 11

 

Quote 12

 

The page on atheism.about.com was just a collection of quotes, not something with the author's actual opinions.

[user1991]

Well, long as I'm good at it.

 

 

 

Besides, what are we supposed to do? Present a court case or some [cabbage]? I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, Robert Downy Jr. believes what he believes - how are we supposed to avail in as ridiculous a subject as personal belief? Especially the personal belief of religion, which is right full of idiocy from every person from here to Timbuktu.

 

 

 

No, but in a thread titled "Is God real post your thoughts!", it is sort of implied that debate/actual substance will be passed around here and there.

 

 

 

It is not as if I'm trying to force my beliefs onto anyone or make them the law. We are in a thread specifically made to debate such things.

 

 

 

I know that your belief in God is not open for debate and that's fine, but this thread it all about debating whether God exists or not. Granted there are a lot of religious people who say that their belief is based on something other than evidence, and yes it is pointless to debate them because by definition their beliefs won't change no matter what evidence is presented, but I'm debating for the people on the fence that may or may not read this and may be at a point where they are examining what they believe themselves.

[MisterGreen]

Where do choices come from exactly? Our brains. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? Yes and no, but for the most part no for the sake of fairness. Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No. God gave us intelligence, in other words will seperate from his own, to choose randomly for ourselves. God simply knows every possible choice we can make and responds accordingly. But it's our choice. I don't seem to see what is so difficult in understanding this. Just because someone knows what we are thinking doesn't mean that he controls us. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself! Yes, you choose whether to be good or not. The Bible tells you how to be a good person.

[user1991]

Where do choices come from exactly? Our brains. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? Yes and no, but for the most part no for the sake of fairness. Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No. God gave us intelligence, in other words will seperate from his own, to choose randomly for ourselves. God simply knows every possible choice we can make and responds accordingly. But it's our choice. I don't seem to see what is so difficult in understanding this. Just because someone knows what we are thinking doesn't mean that he controls us. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself! Yes, you choose whether to be good or not. The Bible tells you how to be a good person.

 

 

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

[MisterGreen]

Einstein did believe in God, but not a personal God.

 

 

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html

 

 

 

A little passage from said article-

 

 

 

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

 

 

 

However, it would also seem that Einstein was not an atheist, since he also complained about being put into that camp:

 

 

 

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

[MisterGreen]

[hide=]

Where do choices come from exactly? Our brains. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? Yes and no, but for the most part no for the sake of fairness. Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No. God gave us intelligence, in other words will seperate from his own, to choose randomly for ourselves. God simply knows every possible choice we can make and responds accordingly. But it's our choice. I don't seem to see what is so difficult in understanding this. Just because someone knows what we are thinking doesn't mean that he controls us. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself! Yes, you choose whether to be good or not. The Bible tells you how to be a good person.

 

 

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

[/hide]

 

 

 

That is where I disagree. He gave us the choice to do what we want. Just because he made us doesn't mean he should be responsible for everything we do. He doesn't want puppets.

[Flyingjj]

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

 

 

 

Those last couple lines provide my opening. This is going to sound like complete bull to all you steadfast logic people, but follow me for a second.

 

 

 

You are considering everything that goes into a choice. Everything follows a logical process, one thing flows from one to another, this builds on that. This is entirely logical. But it does not account for those rare instances outside logic. Those rare impulses that happen completely contrary to what anyone would expect based on "logic." Not everything can be or is built upon logic.

[Obtaurian]

He doesn't want puppets.

 

 

 

Can I get a source, please?

[Iamdan]

We don't get morals from the bible. Unless you treat women badly etc, you have your own set of morals based on today's society.

 

 

 

Where does it say in the bible to treat women badly? JW

 

 

 

 

 

I know it doesn't directly instruct people to treat them badly, but come on.. have you even read the bible?

[MisterGreen]

He doesn't want puppets.

 

 

 

Can I get a source, please?

 

 

 

http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm

 

 

 

Just go to Man's choice to good and evil, and read that.

[Obtaurian]

He doesn't want puppets.

 

 

 

Can I get a source, please?

 

 

 

http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm

 

 

 

Just go to Man's choice to good and evil, and read that.

 

 

 

I read it three times and it does not seem to imply that man has freewill. The last sentence of the first verse is the closest that it comes, but I'm just not seeing it.

[user1991]

[hide=]

Where do choices come from exactly? Our brains. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? Yes and no, but for the most part no for the sake of fairness. Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No. God gave us intelligence, in other words will seperate from his own, to choose randomly for ourselves. God simply knows every possible choice we can make and responds accordingly. But it's our choice. I don't seem to see what is so difficult in understanding this. Just because someone knows what we are thinking doesn't mean that he controls us. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself! Yes, you choose whether to be good or not. The Bible tells you how to be a good person.

 

 

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

[/hide]

 

 

 

That is where I disagree. He gave us the choice to do what we want. Just because he made us doesn't mean he should be responsible for everything we do. He doesn't want puppets.

 

 

 

So he "gave" us the "choice" to do what we want.. doesn't that make him responsible for sin?

 

 

 

Everything that goes into a "choice" is made by God..

[MisterGreen]

[hide=]

Where do choices come from exactly? Our brains. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? Yes and no, but for the most part no for the sake of fairness. Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No. God gave us intelligence, in other words will seperate from his own, to choose randomly for ourselves. God simply knows every possible choice we can make and responds accordingly. But it's our choice. I don't seem to see what is so difficult in understanding this. Just because someone knows what we are thinking doesn't mean that he controls us. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself! Yes, you choose whether to be good or not. The Bible tells you how to be a good person.

 

 

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

[/hide]

 

 

 

That is where I disagree. He gave us the choice to do what we want. Just because he made us doesn't mean he should be responsible for everything we do. He doesn't want puppets.

 

 

 

So he "gave" us the "choice" to do what we want.. doesn't that make him responsible for sin?

 

 

 

Everything that goes into a "choice" is made by God..

 

 

 

Yes he made us able to choose for ourselves, but in a random fashion. He simply knows every possible outcome chosen by us.

[Wisp]

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

 

 

 

Those last couple lines provide my opening. This is going to sound like complete bull to all you steadfast logic people, but follow me for a second.

 

 

 

You are considering everything that goes into a choice. Everything follows a logical process, one thing flows from one to another, this builds on that. This is entirely logical. But it does not account for those rare instances outside logic. Those rare impulses that happen completely contrary to what anyone would expect based on "logic." Not everything can be or is built upon logic.

 

Wrong. While it may not seem logical, everything is determined by a reaction of events. Even the most illogical thing is triggered by something, and based on the way your brain acts, you happen to make that choice. And the way your brain is is determined by genetics, which eventually, if you believe that, all leads back to adam and eve.

 

 

 

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being

 

My interpretation of all this, is Einstein doesn't, as he said, believe in a personal god, one that cares about humanity, but rather he believes in the possibility that there is something that created the universe. His stance is closest to agnosticism, and in the above quote, he simply said he doesn't have as strong an opinion about it as a all out atheist.

 

Anyway, arguing over Einstein quotes is rather pointless.

 

 

 

My point of view though, is if one is omnipotent, as god supposedly is, he can see the future. And if he can see the future, than there is no free will, since that means that it is all predetermined

[user1991]

[hide=]

Where do choices come from exactly? Our brains. Oh, well now you've said that, I guess that just proves your point entirely Just because you make something doesn't mean that the creator has full control of it. Make up your mind. Does God intervene or not? Yes and no, but for the most part no for the sake of fairness. Terrible analogy. If you create a kitchen knife, and then create EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and the person's genetic makeup which in turn leads them to kill someone, is it your fault? Yes. No. God gave us intelligence, in other words will seperate from his own, to choose randomly for ourselves. God simply knows every possible choice we can make and responds accordingly. But it's our choice. I don't seem to see what is so difficult in understanding this. Just because someone knows what we are thinking doesn't mean that he controls us. Wow, that's some good objective morality right there. That Bible, such a great rigid moral code. I spent all that time reading it to learn what to do, only to find out that I was supposed to decide for myself! Yes, you choose whether to be good or not. The Bible tells you how to be a good person.

 

 

 

Did God create everything?

 

 

 

If God created everything, is he not responsible for the products of what he created?

 

 

 

Do choices come from the genetic and our external experiences working together?

 

 

 

Did God create everything that makes up our external experiences?

 

 

 

Did God create our genetic makeups?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we "choose" to defy God, that doesn't matter because everything that goes into a "choice" was made by God. Everything that analyzes everything that goes into a choice (genetic) was made by God.

 

 

 

God is responsible for "sin" even if we choose what we do. He is responsible for every single item that goes into the product of a choice.

[/hide]

 

 

 

That is where I disagree. He gave us the choice to do what we want. Just because he made us doesn't mean he should be responsible for everything we do. He doesn't want puppets.

 

 

 

So he "gave" us the "choice" to do what we want.. doesn't that make him responsible for sin?

 

 

 

Everything that goes into a "choice" is made by God..

 

 

 

Yes he made us able to choose for ourselves, but in a random fashion. He simply knows every possible outcome chosen by us.

 

 

 

What goes into a choice?

 

 

 

The combination of the genetic makeup of a person and their external experiences working on that makeup.

 

 

 

God is responsible for both of these things.

[MisterGreen]

What goes into a choice?

 

 

 

The combination of the genetic makeup of a person and their external experiences working on that makeup.

 

 

 

God is responsible for both of these things.

 

 

 

I think of God like a father. He indirectly caused my existence, he helps me through things, but ultimately I have to make my own decisions.

[Flyingjj]

Those last couple lines provide my opening. This is going to sound like complete bull to all you steadfast logic people, but follow me for a second.

 

 

 

You are considering everything that goes into a choice. Everything follows a logical process, one thing flows from one to another, this builds on that. This is entirely logical. But it does not account for those rare instances outside logic. Those rare impulses that happen completely contrary to what anyone would expect based on "logic." Not everything can be or is built upon logic.

 

Wrong. While it may not seem logical, everything is determined by a reaction of events. Even the most illogical thing is triggered by something, and based on the way your brain acts, you happen to make that choice. And the way your brain is is determined by genetics, which eventually, if you believe that, all leads back to adam and eve.

 

 

 

 

You calling something wrong doesn't make it so, just like my calling something right doesn't make it so. A direct line of causation does not exist in either genetics or environment. There is more to it than that. At least, I believe it to be so, and I challenge you to prove me wrong. Don't go all burden-of-proof on me here, we're both arguing positive assertions that neither of us can really prove.

 

 

 

Either way, what does free will have to do with God really? What we really seem to be arguing at the moment is whether everything is predetermined and is just playing itself out with no oppurtunity for change. If we want to follow that path, I'll bring up something that actually has support. Psychologists have tried finding the source of our so-called "free will" and have so far only produced evidence that it does not exist. What they have found is something called "free won't." The way it is described is that though our actions are determined before they reach the level of consciousness, there is a sort of executive control that can act to stop something from carrying through.

[dpattle]

What I'm getting from all this is that you're all saying that if I create a creature, and create it's environment and all those other things, but give it a will of it's own, I am somehow responsible for what it chooses?

 

 

 

The whole point of the will is that the creature itself is responsible for it's choices. Let's not try to pass blame on the choices we make just because God created our surroundings and such.

[Wisp]

You calling something wrong doesn't make it so, just like my calling something right doesn't make it so. A direct line of causation does not exist in either genetics or environment. There is more to it than that. At least, I believe it to be so, and I challenge you to prove me wrong. Don't go all burden-of-proof on me here, we're both arguing positive assertions that neither of us can really prove.

 

 

 

Either way, what does free will have to do with God really? What we really seem to be arguing at the moment is whether everything is predetermined and is just playing itself out with no oppurtunity for change. If we want to follow that path, I'll bring up something that actually has support. Psychologists have tried finding the source of our so-called "free will" and have so far only produced evidence that it does not exist. What they have found is something called "free won't." The way it is described is that though our actions are determined before they reach the level of consciousness, there is a sort of executive control that can act to stop something from carrying through.

everything affects everything else, no matter how separated, or it will, eventually. Let's say, one day, in your normal life, someone steals your phone. Why they stole your phone is a different matter, but eventually it is all connected. Because they stole your phone, you miss a call from your friend, who you had been planning on meeting for coffee later that day. Your friend would have told you in that call, that he needs you to meet him an hour later, since he's running late. You don't know this, so you walk/drive to the coffee shop, and while going, you're hit by a car and you die. With your death, you effect countless people. The people who saw the accident, the guy who hit you, your friends, your family, the cops, the emergency workers, the truck that moved your car, all the people who had to wait in traffic for longer because of the accident, the staff at the hospital morgue, the funeral home, whoever your family/whatever pays to set up a funeral for them, and so on. And each of those tiny events, or large, in all those peoples lives affect many more people, in a small, or large way. Now, go back in time.

 

There are only two people, in a contained environment. From the start, everything that happens (which is all caused by gods creation of them, and everything) will affect the future.

 

What I'm getting from all this is that you're all saying that if I create a creature, and create it's environment and all those other things, but give it a will of it's own, I am somehow responsible for what it chooses?

 

 

 

The whole point of the will is that the creature itself is responsible for it's choices. Let's not try to pass blame on the choices we make just because God created our surroundings and such.

 

You can't just take a creature, and say, POW, i give you free will!

 

If you had the power to create a creature from scratch, and create it's environment, every "decision" it made would be linked back to you. And if your god, who is perfect, and omnipotent, you could see the future, and that would probably be how. You see what you did, and with your infinitely powerful mind, you could calculate and determine exactly how everything ever would happen.

[Flyingjj]

everything affects everything else, no matter how separated, or it will, eventually. Let's say, one day, in your normal life, someone steals your phone. Why they stole your phone is a different matter, but eventually it is all connected. Because they stole your phone, you miss a call from your friend, who you had been planning on meeting for coffee later that day. Your friend would have told you in that call, that he needs you to meet him an hour later, since he's running late. You don't know this, so you walk/drive to the coffee shop, and while going, you're hit by a car and you die. With your death, you effect countless people. The people who saw the accident, the guy who hit you, your friends, your family, the cops, the emergency workers, the truck that moved your car, all the people who had to wait in traffic for longer because of the accident, the staff at the hospital morgue, the funeral home, whoever your family/whatever pays to set up a funeral for them, and so on. And each of those tiny events, or large, in all those peoples lives affect many more people, in a small, or large way. Now, go back in time.

 

There are only two people, in a contained environment. From the start, everything that happens (which is all caused by gods creation of them, and everything) will affect the future.

 

That's a simple cause and effect chain, that has nothing to do with choice. Of course every action has a reaction, otherwise it wouldn't really be an action, but a thought is not necessarily an action. Again, this debate isn't the most relevant we've had, as most of this could be argued in a philosophy class outside of any connection to God. How much free will do we really have?