user1991 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so. Where do choices come from? Hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God knows all possible paths, but does not know what happens afterwords, he is not omniscient. If he does know what happens afterwords, he knows what decision we were going to make, thus taking away the thousands of possibilities and leaving one - the one he knew we'd make. IF GOD DOES NOT KNOW EVERYTHING, HE IS NOT GOD. Anyway, this is a pointless argument. Clearly, fundamental logic is lost here. Take a critical thinking class and get back to me. He does know everything, but in a way that maintains free will. He knows the results of our actions. Every single one. We choose those actions. His omniscence is based upon them. If I saw the future, and it came true, does that mean I made it happen? No. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so.[/hide] Where do choices come from? Our brains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGoddessI Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 and contrary to some personal beliefs, the opposite direction of the brain :P The only people who tell you that you can't do something are those who have already given up on their own dreams so feel the need to discourage yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1991 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so.[/hide] Where do choices come from? Our brains. Who created our brains? Hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so.[/hide] Where do choices come from? Our brains. Who created our brains? My parents, and indirectly God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Our parents, and God indirectly. So are you claiming that God did not create the human brain? You're not a Christian, are you? That would certainly explain your lack of knowledge on the subject of Christianity and its God. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1991 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Where do choices come from? Our brains. Who created our brains? My parents, and indirectly God. Indirectly? So all that stuff about God creating man in his own image is just bs then..? Hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. Yes. But what do you call it when someone knows everything that can happen? That's knowing the future and what it holds. It therefore can be considered omniscience. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. Yes. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. He limits himself. But he still has the power. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku3220 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. Yes. But what do you call it when someone knows everything that can happen? That's knowing the future and what it holds. It therefore can be considered omniscience. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. Yes. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. He limits himself. But he still has the power. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive. I could've sworn that it was the fruit that Eve ate was what gave us free will, not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Where do choices come from? Our brains. Who created our brains? My parents, and indirectly God. Indirectly? So all that stuff about God creating man in his own image is just bs then..? No. God created Adam in his image. God created Eve from Adam. They had children, and so on and so forth to present day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. Yes. But what do you call it when someone knows everything that can happen? That's knowing the future and what it holds. It therefore can be considered omniscience. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. Yes. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. He limits himself. But he still has the power. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive. The future is the future! If God knows what the future holds, he knows what might, can, could, almost, maybe, will happen, etc! So can God see the future or not? If not, he is not God. It's getting repetitive because you are unaware of this neat little thing called LOGIC. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. Yes. But what do you call it when someone knows everything that can happen? That's knowing the future and what it holds. It therefore can be considered omniscience. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. Yes. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. He limits himself. But he still has the power. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive.[/hide] I could've sworn that it was the fruit that Eve ate was what gave us free will, not God. She found out the difference between good and evil, not gain free will. Eve ate the fruit of her own decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1991 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Where do choices come from? Our brains. Who created our brains? My parents, and indirectly God. Indirectly? So all that stuff about God creating man in his own image is just bs then..? No. God created Adam in his image. God created Eve from Adam. They had children, and so on and so forth to present day. God created Adam. God created Eve from Adam. And this somehow negates the argument...? If God created Adam, and Eve came from Adam, "Eve" is directly dependent upon Adam (who God created) You keep insisting that we have a "choice".. I'm not arguing here that the future is determinable because if you look at the most prominent quantum theories it sort of seems as if there is some random element to it BUT at the same time.. God created EVERYTHING apparently, and choices come from the external, and our genetics, both of which God created. (every aspect of the external boils down to God's creation). Even if there was a totally random aspect to it, something inside us which was totally chaotic, according to you GOD created it. God created everything necessary for sin, and also created every single external situation, and our genetic makeup, and everything random, so our choices are directly dependent upon God's actions.. The constant repetition of the whole "we choose to do whatever" is getting annoying because you aren't taking my point. God is responsible for EVERYTHING that goes into a "choice". There is no part of a "choice" that is outside of God's influence because HE CREATED EVERYTHING. Hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. Yes. But what do you call it when someone knows everything that can happen? That's knowing the future and what it holds. It therefore can be considered omniscience. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. Yes. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. He limits himself. But he still has the power. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive.[/hide] The future is the future! If God knows what the future holds, he knows what might, can, could, almost, maybe, will happen, etc! So can God see the future or not? If not, he is not God. It's getting repetitive because you are unaware of this neat little thing called LOGIC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#Criticisms Please read this. What I am saying about God is considered omniscience. here's a passage from the article- Theists generally agree that God is a personal being and that God is omniscient[7] but there is some disagreement about whether "omniscient" means: 1. "knows everything that God chooses to know and that is logically possible to know"; Or instead the slightly stronger: 2. "knows everything that is logically possible to know"[8] I go with choice #1. God chooses to know what he wants to know. He knows the future, and all possible happenings, but in a way that gives us free will. Is it that hard to understand? Yes choice #2 is technically impossible, but that's not what I was trying to prove. I was arguing for #1, which you seemed to think wasn't omniscience. According to this, it is considered a definition for it. Now it's around 4:00 A.M. where I live, and I would like to go to bed. I'll continue the argument later. Goodnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]If God is omniscient, he knows what the future holds. Yes. But what do you call it when someone knows everything that can happen? That's knowing the future and what it holds. It therefore can be considered omniscience. If God does not know what the future holds, he is not omniscient. Yes. If God is not omniscient, he is not God. He limits himself. But he still has the power. If he knows what the future holds, he knows what path we take, limiting our options to one path - the one he knows we'll take. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. That is not free will. We do not have free will unless God is not omniscient, and thus, not God. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive.[/hide] The future is the future! If God knows what the future holds, he knows what might, can, could, almost, maybe, will happen, etc! So can God see the future or not? If not, he is not God. It's getting repetitive because you are unaware of this neat little thing called LOGIC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#Criticisms Please read this. What I am saying about God is considered omniscience. here's a passage from the article- Theists generally agree that God is a personal being and that God is omniscient[7] but there is some disagreement about whether "omniscient" means: 1. "knows everything that God chooses to know and that is logically possible to know"; Or instead the slightly stronger: 2. "knows everything that is logically possible to know"[8] I go with choice #1. God chooses to know what he wants to know. He knows the future, and all possible happenings, but in a way that gives us free will. Is it that hard to understand? The definition of omniscient does not change when we want it to benefit our argument. It's not hard to understand at all, actually. You're just wrong. So is God all knowing? To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollyboy Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 So essentially free will has never existed. I'll have to wait until something happens till I can make a decision. I've finished my post so I' am going to press submit. "I'd rather bear the comments people say to insult ya, then to poison my skin and erase my culture " - Deep Foundation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Repost- Yes choice #2 is technically impossible, but that's not what I was trying to prove. I was arguing for #1, which you seemed to think wasn't omniscience. According to this, it is considered a definition for it. Now it's around 4:00 A.M. where I live, and I would like to go to bed. I'll continue the argument later. Goodnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Repost- Yes choice #2 is technically impossible, but that's not what I was trying to prove. I was arguing for #1, which you seemed to think wasn't omniscience. According to this, it is considered a definition for it. Now it's around 4:00 A.M. where I live, and I would like to go to bed. I'll continue the argument later. Goodnight. Here's the definition from an accredited dictionary (Merriam-Webster.) 1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight 2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/omniscient So I guess your point is invalid. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsta Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 There is no God. It is greatly improbably for (the existence of whatever God is) to be Omnipotent and Omniscient. To be Omniscient you have to be infinitely complex - so complex that you can read the minds of every human being, listen to prayers and know the future etc. God would have to be so unimaginably complex. There is a greater probability therefore, that God does not exist. Omnipotent? What is his limit? Can God have the knowledge to create a boulder so big he can not live it. Does god have the power to change his future mind? To answer these questions one enters into an infinite regression therefore proving that Omnipotence and Omniscience are not compatible. If God knew the future, then we would not have freewill, we would only have the illusion of freewill. In which case, why does he create souls that he knows are going to Hell? God does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorca99 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 QUESTION TIME!!! If God is omnipotent and benevolent, why is there a devil? If God were truly benevolent he would use his omnipotence to rid the world of the devil. If he didn't, he would either be not omnipotent or not benevolent, and therefore not a God. Right? Great, I love when people ask questions such as this. First, there's a couple points I need to make, for everyone in this thread. Sin is not a concrete object. Sin is just breaking any of God's rules. Next, God did not create Satan as an evil being. He was an angel, the most beautiful of angels. (Isaiah 14:12) He was created with free will. I will explain this in a moment. He was set as a kind of head-angel. He decided that he wanted to be God, but was thrown out of heaven, along with many other angels who sinned along with him. To answer the question, it kind of still has to do with free will, and the character of God. Read this article. If God simply killed the Devil, we would then be afraid of him, and serve him out of fear. God instead wants us to serve him out of love. On the subject of free will, I guess I've already gone through it. God gave us the opportunity to obey or disobey him, and for us to choose to serve Him out of our love and reverence for Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorca99 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 [hide=]QUESTION TIME!!! If God is omnipotent and benevolent, why is there a devil? If God were truly benevolent he would use his omnipotence to rid the world of the devil. If he didn't, he would either be not omnipotent or not benevolent, and therefore not a God. Right? Great, I love when people ask questions such as this. First, there's a couple points I need to make, for everyone in this thread. Sin is not a concrete object. Sin is just breaking any of God's rules. Next, God did not create Satan as an evil being. He was an angel, the most beautiful of angels. (Isaiah 14:12) He was created with free will. I will explain this in a moment. He was set as a kind of head-angel. He decided that he wanted to be God, but was thrown out of heaven, along with many other angels who sinned along with him. To answer the question, it kind of still has to do with free will, and the character of God. Read this article. If God simply killed the Devil, we would then be afraid of him, and serve him out of fear. God instead wants us to serve him out of love. On the subject of free will, I guess I've already gone through it. God gave us the opportunity to obey or disobey him, and for us to choose to serve Him out of our love and reverence for Him.[/hide] So, God is a cowardly [bleep]? What? How did you get that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 QUESTION TIME!!! If God is omnipotent and benevolent, why is there a devil? If God were truly benevolent he would use his omnipotence to rid the world of the devil. If he didn't, he would either be not omnipotent or not benevolent, and therefore not a God. Right? I'm back. Anyway, God created the devil to tempt man, in other words the devil is the source of evil. He let's him exist because if only good existed, everyone wouldn't have true free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorca99 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 QUESTION TIME!!! If God is omnipotent and benevolent, why is there a devil? If God were truly benevolent he would use his omnipotence to rid the world of the devil. If he didn't, he would either be not omnipotent or not benevolent, and therefore not a God. Right? I'm back. Anyway, God created the devil to tempt man, in other words the devil is the source of evil. He let's him exist because if only good existed, everyone wouldn't have true free will. Excuse me, but since we're referencing the biblical God and devil, do you have any verses that support your hypothesis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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