Is God real post your thoughts!

[MisterGreen]

There is no God. It is greatly improbably for (the existence of whatever God is) to be Omnipotent and Omniscient. To be Omniscient you have to be infinitely complex - so complex that you can read the minds of every human being, listen to prayers and know the future etc. God would have to be so unimaginably complex. There is a greater probability therefore, that God does not exist.

 

Omnipotent? What is his limit? Can God have the knowledge to create a boulder so big he can not live it. Does god have the power to change his future mind? To answer these questions one enters into an infinite regression therefore proving that Omnipotence and Omniscience are not compatible.

 

If God knew the future, then we would not have freewill, we would only have the illusion of freewill. In which case, why does he create souls that he knows are going to Hell?

 

God does not exist.

 

 

 

That's you're opinion.

 

 

 

So you're saying that we exist because of nearly impossible events occuring many times (Such as life sprouting from a chemical mix, the Earth being the perfect distance from the Sun as not to fry anything alive, etc.,) is more probable than a creator? I fail to see the logic. God can do everything that doesn't contradict itself, no God can't make a sandwich so big even he couldn't finish it, or make rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, what you are saying is nonesense and therefore null and void. God change his future mind? Time is an illusion, it is merely a series of events of change within an object that are recorded, and we percieve this phenomena as time. It is a finite thing now matter how long it goes on because it had a beginning, and God existed before time, and he will exist afterward if it ever ends. In other words, God has no beggining, or an end.

 

 

 

Like I said, God limits himself so that we have free will, but he could do whatever he wants at any time. God is not a coward, He wants something that can think for itself to choose the right path, not a puppet.

[MisterGreen]

QUESTION TIME!!!

 

 

 

If God is omnipotent and benevolent, why is there a devil? If God were truly benevolent he would use his omnipotence to rid the world of the devil. If he didn't, he would either be not omnipotent or not benevolent, and therefore not a God. Right?

 

 

 

I'm back.

 

 

 

Anyway, God created the devil to tempt man, in other words the devil is the source of evil. He let's him exist because if only good existed, everyone wouldn't have true free will.

 

Excuse me, but since we're referencing the biblical God and devil, do you have any verses that support your hypothesis?

 

 

 

What do you want, exactly? An example? The devil tempting Jesus, The devil destroying Job's life, etc.?

 

 

 

Here's the links for each-

 

 

 

Job

 

Temptation of Christ

[Fedorca99]

No, I know that the devil does tempt people, but I do not believe that he was created for that purpose. What I'm asking about is if you can give me evidence that says that he is the source of evil.

[mmmcannibalism]

So you're saying that we exist because of nearly impossible events occuring many times (Such as life sprouting from a chemical mix, the Earth being the perfect distance from the Sun as not to fry anything alive, etc.,) is more probable than a creator? I fail to see the logic. God can do everything that doesn't contradict itself, no God can't make a sandwich so big even he couldn't finish it, or make rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, what you are saying is nonesense and therefore null and void. God change his future mind? Time is an illusion, it is merely a series of events of change within an object that are recorded, and we percieve this phenomena as time. It is a finite thing now matter how long goes on, and God existed before time, will exist after it if it ever ends.

 

 

 

Like I said, God limits himself so that we have free will, but he could do whatever he wants at any time. God is not a coward, He wants something that can think for itself to choose the right path, not a puppet.

 

 

 

life sprouting from chemicals is not as complex as god because it could be understood by a human, if I recall the bible specifically says god is beyond human understanding(wording may be different)

 

 

 

the earth is the perfect distance from the sun due to the anthropic principle, life isnt going to "generate" where it cant live. For a practical example, you wont find a snake in antartica because it cant live there

 

 

 

agreed, the attempts at illogical questions arent good, I do ask though, can god kill/decreate himself? Which amounts to is god a being or a force?

 

 

 

Time does exist, its relative but it never moves backward. One second passing here isnt one second the universe, but change is occuring in a forward direction everywhere. Time goes on forever because conservation of mass proves that what exists now cannot cease to exist.

 

 

 

If god can change anything at any time, then I find him at fault for allowing every single murder througout time. Just because you made the choice to shoot the president(for instance) doesnt mean god cant give you a seizure to stop it. If we already had free will, then god allowing the devil to come to earth(knowing he had bad intentions) is allowing evil to propagate. From my understanding of the bible, adam and eve were "perfect" in behavior before they ran into the devil. So its logical to assume that its possible we would still be in eden if god hadnt allowed the devil to come to earth. Now that leads me to think god was perfectly fine with all human suffering since he did nothing to discourage it occuring.

[MisterGreen]

No, I know that the devil does tempt people, but I do not believe that he was created for that purpose. What I'm asking about is if you can give me evidence that says that he is the source of evil.

 

 

 

Finally found it-

 

 

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:44;&version=9;

 

 

 

Here's a quote from the passage, Jesus is talking to Jewish leaders that are conspiring to kill him, and their relation to the devil.

 

 

 

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

[MisterGreen]

[hide=]

So you're saying that we exist because of nearly impossible events occuring many times (Such as life sprouting from a chemical mix, the Earth being the perfect distance from the Sun as not to fry anything alive, etc.,) is more probable than a creator? I fail to see the logic. God can do everything that doesn't contradict itself, no God can't make a sandwich so big even he couldn't finish it, or make rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, what you are saying is nonesense and therefore null and void. God change his future mind? Time is an illusion, it is merely a series of events of change within an object that are recorded, and we percieve this phenomena as time. It is a finite thing now matter how long goes on, and God existed before time, will exist after it if it ever ends.

 

 

 

Like I said, God limits himself so that we have free will, but he could do whatever he wants at any time. God is not a coward, He wants something that can think for itself to choose the right path, not a puppet.

 

 

 

life sprouting from chemicals is not as complex as god because it could be understood by a human, if I recall the bible specifically says god is beyond human understanding(wording may be different)

 

 

 

the earth is the perfect distance from the sun due to the anthropic principle, life isnt going to "generate" where it cant live. For a practical example, you wont find a snake in antartica because it cant live there

 

 

 

agreed, the attempts at illogical questions arent good, I do ask though, can god kill/decreate himself? Which amounts to is god a being or a force?

 

 

 

Time does exist, its relative but it never moves backward. One second passing here isnt one second the universe, but change is occuring in a forward direction everywhere. Time goes on forever because conservation of mass proves that what exists now cannot cease to exist.

 

 

 

If god can change anything at any time, then I find him at fault for allowing every single murder througout time. Just because you made the choice to shoot the president(for instance) doesnt mean god cant give you a seizure to stop it. If we already had free will, then god allowing the devil to come to earth(knowing he had bad intentions) is allowing evil to propagate. From my understanding of the bible, adam and eve were "perfect" in behavior before they ran into the devil. So its logical to assume that its possible we would still be in eden if god hadnt allowed the devil to come to earth. Now that leads me to think god was perfectly fine with all human suffering since he did nothing to discourage it occuring.[/hide]

 

 

 

"With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

 

 

 

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly exercised thereby (Hebrews 12:11).

 

 

 

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, for the present, He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives. "

 

 

 

source-

 

 

 

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

[mmmcannibalism]

So its okay to suffer because we can make it good? That seems like a very convienent cop out to me. I dont like logic that is clearly self covering, if god is infinitely powerful how is it he cant find a better way of improving us then suffering? Would it not make sense that god revealing his "divine" presence to the world would save many "sinners"?

 

 

 

Im not familiar with specifics so I need an answer first

 

 

 

does the bible state all human souls were in heaven before they were on earth? If so I ask the question what was gained from sending us here.

[MisterGreen]

So its okay to suffer because we can make it good? That seems like a very convienent cop out to me. I dont like logic that is clearly self covering, if god is infinitely powerful how is it he cant find a better way of improving us then suffering? Would it not make sense that god revealing his "divine" presence to the world would save many "sinners"?

 

 

 

Im not familiar with specifics so I need an answer first

 

 

 

does the bible state all human souls were in heaven before they were on earth? If so I ask the question what was gained from sending us here.

 

 

 

He has revealed himself, although very subtly. You just gotta know how and where to look.

 

 

 

It doesn't say specifically, but it is implied that new soul is created when you are conceived.

[mmmcannibalism]

why be subtle though, if god were to truly reveal himself in magnificent fashion he could greatly reduce human suffering and bring many to salvation. I fail to see how tasking people with finding their own salvation makes it worthwhile.

 

 

 

Secondly, if the bible is the word of god why do so many great people come about without believing in it. Einstein was an agnostic(formerly jewish) but noone would deny the amazing things he did and his good character. A good portion of scientists working on such varying things as cancer and hiv cures are certain to be agnostics or atheists, why are they such noble men if they arent following what is true? If the word of god isnt the only path is it really the word of god, does one not find a better path by striving to understand the logical reality of the universe and the sublime beauty within?

[Obtaurian]

MisterGreen, please answer my question:

 

 

 

Is God all knowing?

[MisterGreen]

why be subtle though, if god were to truly reveal himself in magnificent fashion he could greatly reduce human suffering and bring many to salvation. I fail to see how tasking people with finding their own salvation makes it worthwhile.

 

 

 

Secondly, if the bible is the word of god why do so many great people come about without believing in it. Einstein was an agnostic(formerly jewish) but noone would deny the amazing things he did and his good character. A good portion of scientists working on such varying things as cancer and hiv cures are certain to be agnostics or atheists, why are they such noble men if they arent following what is true? If the word of god isnt the only path is it really the word of god, does one not find a better path by striving to understand the logical reality of the universe and the sublime beauty within?

 

 

 

"One of the most common questions asked about God is this- If God is good, why doesnt He intervene in the affairs of man? This is especially so when there is suffering or an evil that should have been stopped by a good God.

 

 

 

What might happen indeed when God intervenes:

 

· God stops us from getting sick

 

· God stops us from dying when attacked by others

 

· God stops us from sinning

 

· God stops others from sinning against us

 

 

 

As we might note, if God intervenes, He must consistently do so also in order not to be deemed as imperfect or as evil. And when He does, the Laws of this world He has created shall all be broken by the very One who created it. Freedom and freewill shall no longer be, and He will infringe upon the dignity of the man He has so created in His very own image.

 

 

 

The source of suffering in this life comes from two things-

 

1. Suffering of the physical body

 

2. Suffering of the spiritual self

 

 

 

To what suffering then must God intervene for us all that we may deem Him Good and Perfect?

 

 

 

· As to remedying sin (cause of suffering of spiritual self), Love cannot be forced

 

· As to remedying physical illness and death (cause of suffering of physical body), it would be a curse to give immortality to those who have not learned of love."

 

 

 

source-

 

 

 

http://itakeoffthemask.com/god/why-doesnt-god-intervene-in-mans-affairs/

 

 

 

In other words, if he revealed himself to everyone, his law would be basically forced upon us and we wouldn't have the freedom of choice, and as I've said before, He wants us to choose for ourselves, because otherwise we would be mere puppets.

[MisterGreen]

MisterGreen, please answer my question:

 

 

 

Is God all knowing?

 

 

 

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice.

[embersfire]

Yeah man,god is every where..i had a good chat with him while he was hiding in my closet,had to really look for him. the christian words about god being all around us never ceases to amuse me. All you have to do is have faith,and you will feel him,how adorable.

 

 

 

I have never gotten how people could fall for religion,one religion after another contradict each other,if you're not going to hell for this,you're going to hell for that....in the end,i i could never see religion as something other than man made,and created to try and sustain society...and make them fear their repercussions,while letting the fearful have some hope in a life after death.

 

 

 

just my thoughts,bien sur..and mistergreen,you can edit your posts so you don't have to keep making double posts. ;)

[Obtaurian]

MisterGreen, please answer my question:

 

 

 

Is God all knowing?

 

 

 

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice.

 

 

 

Can I just ask you a second question after this one? Are you Christian? I need to know before we continue this discussion, because as far as I'm aware, Christians claim God to be omniscience and omnipotent, and you claim to know the inner workings of Gods mind and actions. So I'm wondering if maybe you worship some sort of Pagan sheep god, because clearly we're talking about two different gods here.

 

 

 

The Christian God is omniscience, therefore all knowing, therefore he knows the future, therefore there is no free will.

[EdgedThesis]

If Man were to create a super-computer that could chart every single particle existent on earth, and calculate what science dictates to be the outcome, Man too could have the power to predict the future. But that would not change our ability to choose. It's just that what we choose has already been known.

 

 

 

Anyway, I have a question. When you say God limits his power to allow us free will, does he limit the full extent of our decisions? Does he cut short the chain reactions?

 

 

 

As we breathe and move, we jostle atoms which jostle other atoms, wave after wave of particular collision until the atomic dominoes result in a tidal wave or a storm, everything on Earth a result of just our actions at any one time. If he does not limit the Butterfly Effect, he has no power here on Earth. We do.

[MisterGreen]

MisterGreen, please answer my question:

 

 

 

Is God all knowing?

 

 

 

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice.

 

 

 

Can I just ask you a second question after this one? Are you Christian? I need to know before we continue this discussion, because as far as I'm aware, Christians claim God to be omniscience and omnipotent, and you claim to know the inner workings of Gods mind and actions. So I'm wondering if maybe you worship some sort of Pagan sheep god, because clearly we're talking about two different gods here.

 

 

 

The Christian God is omniscience, therefore all knowing, therefore he knows the future, therefore there is no free will.

 

 

 

Oh, how tactful and respectful you are.

 

 

 

Christians have long argued the powers of God and what the meaning of infinity and all mighty when it comes to God, In other words not all Christians are alike or share the exact same beliefs. The Bible has been interpreted in many different ways over many years. The meaning of omniscient when it comes to God can be interpreted differently. I believe he has the power, he just chooses not to use it unless necessary. It's the same with creating the Universe, why did he do it in six days if he's all powerful? I think he did so because he enjoyed doing so. Think of an artist, or a craftsman, or someone that has a hobby and really likes doing what they do. If they had the choice to make everything instantly, things would become boring. It's the journey that counts more, not the end result.

 

 

 

As for my religion, I am a Christian, non-denominational.

[MisterGreen]

If Man were to create a super-computer that could chart every single particle existent on earth, and calculate what science dictates to be the outcome, Man too could have the power to predict the future. But that would not change our ability to choose. It's just that what we choose has already been known.

 

 

 

Anyway, I have a question. When you say God limits his power to allow us free will, does he limit the full extent of our decisions? Does he cut short the chain reactions?

 

 

 

As we breathe and move, we jostle atoms which jostle other atoms, wave after wave of particular collision until the atomic dominoes result in a tidal wave or a storm, everything on Earth a result of just our actions at any one time. If he does not limit the Butterfly Effect, he has no power here on Earth. We do.

 

 

 

Exactly. We have the power to choose. However, I do believe he does interfere in extreme situations.

[Obtaurian]

MisterGreen, please answer my question:

 

 

 

Is God all knowing?

 

 

 

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice.

 

 

 

Can I just ask you a second question after this one? Are you Christian? I need to know before we continue this discussion, because as far as I'm aware, Christians claim God to be omniscience and omnipotent, and you claim to know the inner workings of Gods mind and actions. So I'm wondering if maybe you worship some sort of Pagan sheep god, because clearly we're talking about two different gods here.

 

 

 

The Christian God is omniscience, therefore all knowing, therefore he knows the future, therefore there is no free will.

 

 

 

Oh, how tactful and respectful you are.

 

 

 

Christians have long argued the powers of God and what the meaning of infinity and all mighty when it comes to God, In other words not all Christians are alike or share the exact same beliefs. The Bible has been interpreted in many different ways over many years. The meaning of omniscient when it comes to God can be interpreted differently. I believe he has the power, he just chooses not to use it unless necessary. It's the same with creating the Universe, why did he do it in six days if he's all powerful? I think he did so because he enjoyed doing so. Think of an artist, or a craftsman, or someone that has a hobby and really likes doing what they do. If they had the choice to make everything instantly, things would become boring. It's the journey that counts more, not the end result.

 

 

 

As for my religion, I am a Christian, non-denominational.

 

 

 

Well then that's the end of our debate. We are not arguing with logic, we are arguing your personal beliefs, whether they are the commonly accepted Christian beliefs or not. I can never win such an argument, no matter how great mine is. Have a nice life.

[mmmcannibalism]

In other words, if he revealed himself to everyone, his law would be basically forced upon us and we wouldn't have the freedom of choice, and as I've said before, He wants us to choose for ourselves, because otherwise we would be mere puppets.

 

 

 

I am alreadly questioning the christian god's morality, how is this any different if he appeared? Assuming the christian god were to appear I demand he explain soddom and ghamorran(horrible spelling), how was it not interfering with free will when he flattened two cities just because they were sinful? How was it not interfering with free will when god flooded the earth and wiped out everyone except those who he chose to live(noah)? When god crumbled the walls of jericho was it not interfering with the natural choice of Joshua to attack, with walls that city would have survived. etc.

 

 

 

If god doesnt intefere with free will then why are there so many examples of him interfering with free will. Unless you wish to deny the great flood, soddom, and parting of the red sea(promising aid to refugees interferes with their choice to flee) then god has already impeded free will.

[Rebdragon]

Well then that's the end of our debate. We are not arguing with logic, we are arguing your personal beliefs, whether they are the commonly accepted Christian beliefs or not. I can never win such an argument, no matter how great mine is. Have a nice life.

 

Give this man a cookie, for he is a greater man than I. And I got a cookie.

[Lenticular_J]

'Bout damn time someone actually realized that.

[MisterGreen]

In other words, if he revealed himself to everyone, his law would be basically forced upon us and we wouldn't have the freedom of choice, and as I've said before, He wants us to choose for ourselves, because otherwise we would be mere puppets.

 

 

 

I am alreadly questioning the christian god's morality, how is this any different if he appeared? Assuming the christian god were to appear I demand he explain soddom and ghamorran(horrible spelling), how was it not interfering with free will when he flattened two cities just because they were sinful? How was it not interfering with free will when god flooded the earth and wiped out everyone except those who he chose to live(noah)? When god crumbled the walls of jericho was it not interfering with the natural choice of Joshua to attack, with walls that city would have survived. etc.

 

 

 

If god doesnt intefere with free will then why are there so many examples of him interfering with free will. Unless you wish to deny the great flood, soddom, and parting of the red sea(promising aid to refugees interferes with their choice to flee) then god has already impeded free will.

 

 

 

Like I have said, he does interfere in given situations.

[mmmcannibalism]

Like I have said, he does interfere in given situations.

 

 

 

which means we only have free will when he wants it, so its not really free.

[MisterGreen]

[hide=]

MisterGreen, please answer my question:

 

 

 

Is God all knowing?

 

 

 

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice.

 

 

 

Can I just ask you a second question after this one? Are you Christian? I need to know before we continue this discussion, because as far as I'm aware, Christians claim God to be omniscience and omnipotent, and you claim to know the inner workings of Gods mind and actions. So I'm wondering if maybe you worship some sort of Pagan sheep god, because clearly we're talking about two different gods here.

 

 

 

The Christian God is omniscience, therefore all knowing, therefore he knows the future, therefore there is no free will.

 

 

 

Oh, how tactful and respectful you are.

 

 

 

Christians have long argued the powers of God and what the meaning of infinity and all mighty when it comes to God, In other words not all Christians are alike or share the exact same beliefs. The Bible has been interpreted in many different ways over many years. The meaning of omniscient when it comes to God can be interpreted differently. I believe he has the power, he just chooses not to use it unless necessary. It's the same with creating the Universe, why did he do it in six days if he's all powerful? I think he did so because he enjoyed doing so. Think of an artist, or a craftsman, or someone that has a hobby and really likes doing what they do. If they had the choice to make everything instantly, things would become boring. It's the journey that counts more, not the end result.

 

 

 

As for my religion, I am a Christian, non-denominational.

 

 

 

Well then that's the end of our debate. We are not arguing with logic, we are arguing your personal beliefs, whether they are the commonly accepted Christian beliefs or not. I can never win such an argument, no matter how great mine is. Have a nice life.[/hide]

 

 

 

There are many non-denominational Christians, I assure you. But I digress, It is a matter of opinion in the end. Just depends on the person. Only way to find out is to die. Thanks for the intellectual discussion, I've tried debating with people before and they flat out insulted me because they couldn't come up with a good counter

 

argument.

[lobsta]

why be subtle though, if god were to truly reveal himself in magnificent fashion he could greatly reduce human suffering and bring many to salvation. I fail to see how tasking people with finding their own salvation makes it worthwhile.

 

 

 

Secondly, if the bible is the word of god why do so many great people come about without believing in it. Einstein was an agnostic(formerly jewish) but noone would deny the amazing things he did and his good character. A good portion of scientists working on such varying things as cancer and hiv cures are certain to be agnostics or atheists, why are they such noble men if they arent following what is true? If the word of god isnt the only path is it really the word of god, does one not find a better path by striving to understand the logical reality of the universe and the sublime beauty within?

 

Einstein was not Agnostic, he was Atheist. Though I may also add, if the Bible is the word of God, why are the works of William Shakespeare better?