Wisp Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 It's relevant in that we were talking about if there actually is free will for us to choose what morals we will follow, if we were created. Since kind of had an Einstein quoting fest, I'll throw in one more quote that can pretty much summarize my basic opinion on religion, and morals: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." Hegemony-Spain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You can't just take a creature, and say, POW, i give you free will! If you had the power to create a creature from scratch, and create it's environment, every "decision" it made would be linked back to you. And if your god, who is perfect, and omnipotent, you could see the future, and that would probably be how. You see what you did, and with your infinitely powerful mind, you could calculate and determine exactly how everything ever would happen. God could have, but he didn't do that. Why? He wanted us to choose for ourselves, a creature free from his control and something that could make it's own decisions and choose right or wrong. Like I said, he doesn't want puppets. It's not that God knows everything we will do, He knows everything we can do. We are not pre-programmed like a computer. Sure we know the difference between right and wrong, but when it comes down to it we can choose whatever we want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingjj Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. Lots of problems with that. If freewill does exist, God can be omniscient(omnipotent is all-powerful) by seeing all possibilities because the future does not exist until it actually happens, and it is therefore not knowable. If we have not freewill, then it doesn't really matter either way, now does it? Besides that, why does a god have to be all-knowing(or all-powerful as the case may be)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingjj Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 It's relevant in that we were talking about if there actually is free will for us to choose what morals we will follow, if we were created. Oh, okay. Still irrelevant for me, because I don't think we get our morals from the Bible or really even God for that matter. And still, all debateable as philosophy, excluding the "if we were created" part. That seems to just be tagged on there at the end to turn a philosophy debate into a religious debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. Lots of problems with that. If freewill does exist, God can be omniscient(omnipotent is all-powerful) by seeing all possibilities because the future does not exist until it actually happens, and it is therefore not knowable. If we have not freewill, then it doesn't really matter either way, now does it? Besides that, why does a god have to be all-knowing(or all-powerful as the case may be)? The Christian God is omnipotent, which by definition means that he should be able to see the future and all possibilities, which still implies that nothing can happen which wasn't one of the possibilities. If an omnipotent god does not knowing something, he is not omnipotent. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisp Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 God could have, but he didn't do that. Why? He wanted us to choose for ourselves, a creature free from his control and something that could make it's own decisions and choose right or wrong. Like I said, he doesn't want puppets. It's not that God knows everything we will do, He knows everything we can do. We are not pre-programmed like a computer. Sure we know the difference between right and wrong, but when it comes down to it we can choose whatever we want to do. Tell me, why do we know right from wrong? Most likely, originally, our parents. Or a bible, or our environment. And if we believe god created everything, then that's all from him. Think of it this way. If God created the universe, I would imagine it like setting up a giant domino line, or domino art, or whatever. he flicks the first domino, and everything else is set into motion. While he doesn't directly control what the 1000th domino down the line is doing, what he did in the start, and how he set it up, predetermines it. You can't create free will. It simply is, or isn't. Hegemony-Spain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. He doesn't see the future, he knows every future that is possible. You choose the path to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. He doesn't see the future, he knows every future that is possible. You choose the path to take. If all paths are set in stone, there is no free will. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku3220 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. He doesn't see the future, he knows every future that is possible. You choose the path to take. Even then if he knows the future then he knows what we're going to pick, which makes the future set in stone and there not being any free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattle Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. Lots of problems with that. If freewill does exist, God can be omniscient(omnipotent is all-powerful) by seeing all possibilities because the future does not exist until it actually happens, and it is therefore not knowable. If we have not freewill, then it doesn't really matter either way, now does it? Besides that, why does a god have to be all-knowing(or all-powerful as the case may be)? The Christian God is omnipotent, which by definition means that he should be able to see the future and all possibilities, which still implies that nothing can happen which wasn't one of the possibilities. If an omnipotent god does not knowing something, he is not omnipotent. I believe that God sees all the different possibilities of the future, based on our choices of course (Thats a helluva lotta scenarios for the future), and that's how he knows the future. We still have that choice though. [hide=]You think you got it bad?My school blocks Neopets.Those dirty bastards try to keep me from feeding my Ixi. Ha![/hide]Important Slayer Drops: masks-8, leafbladed sword, gmaul-3Important treasure trail rewards: zammy page 1(3), rune kite g, zammy crozier, sara mitre, sara dhide, rune helm h1, guth page 4(2), zammy full helm, guth legs(3), sara chaps, guth page 3, zammy legs(2), and sara full helm, zammy pl8, zammy page 2, rune cane, sara page, sara crozier, zammy crozier, guth coif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku3220 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. Lots of problems with that. If freewill does exist, God can be omniscient(omnipotent is all-powerful) by seeing all possibilities because the future does not exist until it actually happens, and it is therefore not knowable. If we have not freewill, then it doesn't really matter either way, now does it? Besides that, why does a god have to be all-knowing(or all-powerful as the case may be)? The Christian God is omnipotent, which by definition means that he should be able to see the future and all possibilities, which still implies that nothing can happen which wasn't one of the possibilities. If an omnipotent god does not knowing something, he is not omnipotent. I believe that God sees all the different possibilities of the future, based on our choices of course (Thats a helluva lotta scenarios for the future), and that's how he knows the future. We still have that choice though. If he knows the future then he knows what we pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God is omnipotent and can see the future, then the future is predetermined and thus freewill does not exist. No matter what you think you've chosen to do, it was already set in stone. If we have true freewill, then God cannot see the future, and thus he is not omnipotent, which makes me wonder if he's even really a god. Lots of problems with that. If freewill does exist, God can be omniscient(omnipotent is all-powerful) by seeing all possibilities because the future does not exist until it actually happens, and it is therefore not knowable. If we have not freewill, then it doesn't really matter either way, now does it? Besides that, why does a god have to be all-knowing(or all-powerful as the case may be)? The Christian God is omnipotent, which by definition means that he should be able to see the future and all possibilities, which still implies that nothing can happen which wasn't one of the possibilities. If an omnipotent god does not knowing something, he is not omnipotent. I believe that God sees all the different possibilities of the future, based on our choices of course (Thats a helluva lotta scenarios for the future), and that's how he knows the future. We still have that choice though. As I've stated above, being given a large number of predetermined paths does not change the fact that the path we choose is predetermined. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingjj Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Even then if he knows the future then he knows what we're going to pick, which makes the future set in stone and there not being any free will. I never said he knows the future, I said he knows the possibilities. The future is to me unknowable, simply by the fact that it does not exist until it takes place, at which point it is no longer the future. He may know how likely it is we will pick each individual possibility, but he cannot "know" which one we will pick because it is not decided until we pick it. (And again with the omnipotent. Omnipotent is all-powerful, not all-knowing. Look it up.) I also never said that anything would happen outside the realm of those possibilities. Just because the possibilities are limited, does not mean everything is predetermined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Even then if he knows the future then he knows what we're going to pick, which makes the future set in stone and there not being any free will. I never said he knows the future, I said he knows the possibilities. The future is to me unknowable, simply by the fact that it does not exist until it takes place, at which point it is no longer the future. He may know how likely it is we will pick each individual possibility, but he cannot "know" which one we will pick because it is not decided until we pick it. (And again with the omnipotent. Omnipotent is all-powerful, not all-knowing. Look it up.) I also never said that anything would happen outside the realm of those possibilities. Just because the possibilities are limited, does not mean everything is predetermined. The Christian God is also omniscient. He cannot be omniscient (and thus, not a Christian God) if he does not know the future. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 God could have, but he didn't do that. Why? He wanted us to choose for ourselves, a creature free from his control and something that could make it's own decisions and choose right or wrong. Like I said, he doesn't want puppets. It's not that God knows everything we will do, He knows everything we can do. We are not pre-programmed like a computer. Sure we know the difference between right and wrong, but when it comes down to it we can choose whatever we want to do. Tell me, why do we know right from wrong? Most likely, originally, our parents. Or a bible, or our environment. And if we believe god created everything, then that's all from him. Think of it this way. If God created the universe, I would imagine it like setting up a giant domino line, or domino art, or whatever. he flicks the first domino, and everything else is set into motion. While he doesn't directly control what the 1000th domino down the line is doing, what he did in the start, and how he set it up, predetermines it. You can't create free will. It simply is, or isn't. God didn't make the Universe like a long set of dominoes, It's more like God threw billions of different reactive chemicals together and he knows every possible outcome that can occur, and has the power and know how to handle it, but he doesn't know what the outcome of each specific chemical is going to be, and nothing is pre-determined. In other words, life is not so linear. He knows everything you can do, not everything you will do. We have free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Even then if he knows the future then he knows what we're going to pick, which makes the future set in stone and there not being any free will. I never said he knows the future, I said he knows the possibilities. The future is to me unknowable, simply by the fact that it does not exist until it takes place, at which point it is no longer the future. He may know how likely it is we will pick each individual possibility, but he cannot "know" which one we will pick because it is not decided until we pick it. (And again with the omnipotent. Omnipotent is all-powerful, not all-knowing. Look it up.) I also never said that anything would happen outside the realm of those possibilities. Just because the possibilities are limited, does not mean everything is predetermined. The Christian God is also omniscient. He cannot be omniscient (and thus, not a Christian God) if he does not know the future. It's very simple. The definition of omniscient is knowing everything infinitely. God knows an infinite amount of futures. But he doesn't control it. Omniscience has nothing to do with control. Simply knowing something that can occur doesn't give you control over something unless you act upon it. So if we eat a cheesecake, he knows everything that could possibly happen to us because of it. But he doesn't make us eat the cheesecake, but he knows what can and will occur if we do. Yes he could control us if he wanted, but he doesn't. Why? He wants us to have freedom of choice. So he maintains omniscience and we have free will at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Even then if he knows the future then he knows what we're going to pick, which makes the future set in stone and there not being any free will. I never said he knows the future, I said he knows the possibilities. The future is to me unknowable, simply by the fact that it does not exist until it takes place, at which point it is no longer the future. He may know how likely it is we will pick each individual possibility, but he cannot "know" which one we will pick because it is not decided until we pick it. (And again with the omnipotent. Omnipotent is all-powerful, not all-knowing. Look it up.) I also never said that anything would happen outside the realm of those possibilities. Just because the possibilities are limited, does not mean everything is predetermined. The Christian God is also omniscient. He cannot be omniscient (and thus, not a Christian God) if he does not know the future. It's very simple. The definition of omniscient is knowing everything infinitely. God knows an infinite amount of futures. But he doesn't control it. Omniscience has nothing to do with control. Simply knowing something that can occur doesn't give you control over something unless you act upon it. So if we eat a cheesecake, he knows everything that could possibly happen to us because of it. But he doesn't make us eat the cheesecake, but he knows what can and will occur if we do. Yes he could control us if he wanted, but he doesn't. Why? He wants us to have freedom of choice. Oh I get it. You're saying that God, who is omniscient and infinitely knowing, does not know what happens after we eat the cheesecake. Wait, what? To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Even then if he knows the future then he knows what we're going to pick, which makes the future set in stone and there not being any free will. I never said he knows the future, I said he knows the possibilities. The future is to me unknowable, simply by the fact that it does not exist until it takes place, at which point it is no longer the future. He may know how likely it is we will pick each individual possibility, but he cannot "know" which one we will pick because it is not decided until we pick it. (And again with the omnipotent. Omnipotent is all-powerful, not all-knowing. Look it up.) I also never said that anything would happen outside the realm of those possibilities. Just because the possibilities are limited, does not mean everything is predetermined. The Christian God is also omniscient. He cannot be omniscient (and thus, not a Christian God) if he does not know the future. It's very simple. The definition of omniscient is knowing everything infinitely. God knows an infinite amount of futures. But he doesn't control it. Omniscience has nothing to do with control. Simply knowing something that can occur doesn't give you control over something unless you act upon it. So if we eat a cheesecake, he knows everything that could possibly happen to us because of it. But he doesn't make us eat the cheesecake, but he knows what can and will occur if we do. Yes he could control us if he wanted, but he doesn't. Why? He wants us to have freedom of choice. Oh I get it. You're saying that God, who is omniscient and infinitely knowing, does not know what happens after we eat the cheesecake. Wait, what? He knows every possible outcome of every decision we make, but doesn't control our decisions. If we choose to do something, God knows what will happen. His omniscience is based upon our decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku3220 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattle Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Well see, theres will and can. Omniscience is just knowing. In this case God knows what can happen and is prepared if it does happen. So i guess in ur twisted way you can say he doesn't know what will happen, because he gives us the choice to determine that ourselves. Of course he knows what will happen after we make that decision. Kind of like knowing all the possible "effects" of any given choice. [hide=]You think you got it bad?My school blocks Neopets.Those dirty bastards try to keep me from feeding my Ixi. Ha![/hide]Important Slayer Drops: masks-8, leafbladed sword, gmaul-3Important treasure trail rewards: zammy page 1(3), rune kite g, zammy crozier, sara mitre, sara dhide, rune helm h1, guth page 4(2), zammy full helm, guth legs(3), sara chaps, guth page 3, zammy legs(2), and sara full helm, zammy pl8, zammy page 2, rune cane, sara page, sara crozier, zammy crozier, guth coif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattle Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. [hide=]You think you got it bad?My school blocks Neopets.Those dirty bastards try to keep me from feeding my Ixi. Ha![/hide]Important Slayer Drops: masks-8, leafbladed sword, gmaul-3Important treasure trail rewards: zammy page 1(3), rune kite g, zammy crozier, sara mitre, sara dhide, rune helm h1, guth page 4(2), zammy full helm, guth legs(3), sara chaps, guth page 3, zammy legs(2), and sara full helm, zammy pl8, zammy page 2, rune cane, sara page, sara crozier, zammy crozier, guth coif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku3220 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtaurian Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If God knows all possible paths, but does not know what happens afterwords, he is not omniscient. If he does know what happens afterwords, he knows what decision we were going to make, thus taking away the thousands of possibilities and leaving one - the one he knew we'd make. IF GOD DOES NOT KNOW EVERYTHING, HE IS NOT GOD. Anyway, this is a pointless argument. Clearly, fundamental logic is lost here. Take a critical thinking class and get back to me. To put it bluntly, [bleep] off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterGreen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You're still not getting that fact that if he knows what happens as a result of our actions then he knows every action after that. That and if everything is predetermined there is no free will Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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