Breastfeeding

[Zierro]

You're saying that a mother has to live by these specific rules when going into a diner to protect other people? "Oh honey, darn, I forgot the blanket. We'll have to go back home because I'm worried that people will see me feeding my baby and be disgusted by it."

 

 

 

I don't see what the big deal is though. The mother has lots of options to please both her baby and the people of the diner. She could bring a blanket or shawl - she could move into a secluded area - she could go out to the car or bathroom.

 

 

 

Why must men have to live by specific rules when going into a diner? Why is there a policy of "No shirt - no service," even when it's a man? There is nothing wrong with a male's bare chest. You see, it's not really that I'm arguing for political correctness - I'm really just trying to show how unfair this whole system is. If it is okay for a woman to drop all responsibilities and breastfeed, then why is it a man's responsibility to put a shirt on when it is also completely natural and no one is harmed? Why must a man inconvenience himself in order to be "politically correct" when a mother doesn't even have to bring a blanket?

 

 

 

These political correct rules contradict each other. And I'm saying, they should either go one way or the other. And since things already seem to be going a certain way, it only makes sense to make everything that way.

 

 

 

PS: I don't know why I didn't bring that up sooner.

 

 

 

but you said she TRIED to hide it, whether or not she actually did, she tried so yea, it's ok for her to do it.

 

 

 

Although, you don't know how hard she actually did try. A "try" could be anything from putting her palm up to facing down and cradling her baby.

[Flodder450]

You guys act like a nude boob is like an atomic bomb who can explode anywere,anytime :?

 

 

 

It can make some men explode whenever they see it. ;)

*points to zierro*

[Nadril]

Why must men have to live by specific rules when going into a diner? Why is there a policy of "No shirt - no service," even when it's a man? There is nothing wrong with a male's bare chest. You see, it's not really that I'm arguing for political correctness - I'm really just trying to show how unfair this whole system is. If it is okay for a woman to drop all responsibilities and breastfeed, then why is it a man's responsibility to put a shirt on when it is also completely natural and no one is harmed? Why must a man inconvenience himself in order to be "politically correct" when a mother doesn't even have to bring a blanket?

 

 

 

These political correct rules contradict each other. And I'm saying, they should either go one way or the other. And since things already seem to be going a certain way, it only makes sense to make everything that way.

 

 

 

PS: I don't know why I didn't bring that up sooner.

 

 

 

 

A man isn't going to have any need to take off his shirt. And, anyways, a woman isn't going to be completely taking off her shirt -- it's pretty much all covered between the shirt + babies head.

[Zierro]

A man isn't going to have any need to take off his shirt. And, anyways, a woman isn't going to be completely taking off her shirt -- it's pretty much all covered between the shirt + babies head.

 

 

 

And a woman doesn't need to feed her baby right that second. It can wait until she moves somewhere else. We were talking about conveniences.

 

 

 

Saying that the baby must eat now! is just blowing things out of proportion for argument's sake. Baby's are known to wait a few minutes just like everyone else.

[Lenin64]

Saying that the baby must eat now! is just blowing things out of proportion for argument's sake. Baby's are known to wait a few minutes just like everyone else.

 

I don't know about all that, since I've never seen a baby wait 10 seconds before going off like 20 concussion grenades in an orchestra hall, and that's something that will disturb far more people than yourself.

[Zierro]

Lenin, you're right. I'm sure many would rather have a baby being breastfed than having one cry. However, I'm sure that's not the case every single time, as you can see in the first post.

[issy2]

A man isn't going to have any need to take off his shirt. And, anyways, a woman isn't going to be completely taking off her shirt -- it's pretty much all covered between the shirt + babies head.

 

 

 

And a woman doesn't need to feed her baby right that second. It can wait until she moves somewhere else. We were talking about conveniences.

 

 

 

Saying that the baby must eat now! is just blowing things out of proportion for argument's sake. Baby's are known to wait a few minutes just like everyone else.

 

 

 

Actually, there's many reasons why babies should eat when they're hungry. Firstly, if you were in a restaurant, trying to eat, which would be more annoying to you? Be honest! A baby screaming its head off for milk, generating a heck of alot of noise, turning heads and making people listen to it, or a mother 'exposing' (which in most cases isnt even true) herself to feed it? If you had to listen to a baby screaming you'd be complaining too. I'm not saying there aren't alternatives, but you can't have it both ways.

 

 

 

Secondly it's incredibly upsetting for a mother to listen to her baby crying and not being able - or not feeling able - to feed it. Lots of women struggle to breastfeed their babies and it can cause her to feel like a failure. The same goes for not making sure he/she is happy and comfortable.

 

 

 

Thirdly, babies can't feed themselves. They need looking after. No, I'm not saying a mother should devote herself entirely to every single tiny need of her child, but food isn't like toys or TV. A baby needs it, and I can't see it's very good for a baby to be screaming, angry and hungry until the mother feed them.

 

 

 

As you said earlier in the thread;

 

What I do care about is empathy towards others.

 

 

 

Before you start talking about empathy, you should put yourselves in a mothers shoes. You ask her to put your feelings before her own childs? Why should she feel empathy for someone over her own flesh and blood, when she would have to bring a shawl or remember to cover up? You are clearly quite into the whole "empathy" thing - how about empathy for a mother who is only looking after her child.

 

 

 

PS. Thanks :)

[Zierro]

For your first point, I've already answered that since Lenin said something along the same lines as you. I happen to agree on that point, however if a baby isn't screaming or anything then I think it's alright to wait a little bit before feeding it - this is all completely situational.

 

 

 

As for your second point, I answered that too. The mother has the option of pleasing two parties. There is the mother, the baby, and the uncomfortable people.

 

 

 

A) Walk into seclusion or bring blanket. (Pleases baby and uncomfortable people - given the baby is not screaming)

 

 

 

B) Breastfeed without concealing yourself. (Pleases baby and mother)

 

 

 

You see, the baby is being satisfied already. It's the mother who chooses herself over the uncomfortable people - and that's where I got "lack of empathy" from.

[issy2]

For your first point, I've already answered that since Lenin said something along the same lines as you. I happen to agree on that point, however if a baby isn't screaming or anything then I think it's alright to wait a little bit before feeding it - this is all completely situational.

 

 

 

Yeah... babies can't talk. They're hungry? They scream. They're not very patient people, on the whole.

 

 

 

As for your second point, I answered that too. The mother has the option of pleasing two parties. There is the mother, the baby, and the uncomfortable people.

 

 

 

A) Walk into seclusion or bring blanket. (Pleases baby and uncomfortable people - given the baby is not screaming)

 

 

 

B) Breastfeed without concealing yourself. (Pleases baby and mother)

 

 

 

You see, the baby is being satisfied already. It's the mother who chooses herself over the uncomfortable people - and that's where I got "lack of empathy" from.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't see why a mother should have to move because of YOUR disgust. Most people aren't disgusted by breastfeeding, it's a natural thing. May I ask, what is it about breastfeeding you find so 'disgusting'? I'm curious.

 

 

 

Did you know, if you are disgusted by it, it will actually do you good to see it taking place? It's a psychological occurence called desensitisation, or "dulling or numbing of the feelings"; through making a person more used to something, ie, showing an arachnaphobic pictures of spiders, the fear or phobia will be less and less intense.

 

Forgive me if I'm presumptious, but I think you may have a phobia; "an irrational or persistent fear of certain situations, people, or activities." It sounds like you, doesn't it?

[rushrock]

You still talk about convenience like it's a bad thing. You're not putting yourself in the mother's shoes. Are you familiar with a mother's bond? A mother feeding her child in a public place. Wow. And don't try to compare it to something as irrelevant as a man taking off his shirt. They are very different. The man doesn't have to take off his shirt, and the baby needs to eat. Now, why can't the baby wait? For god's sake, it's a baby. That's being a bit cruel. It shouldn't have to wait. No curtesy for the baby? Maybe it's just you, along with the select few, who follow this norm, because most people wouldn't do this. It's totally fair. Take the fact that it's a baby needing to eat, and a mother needing to feed it, and you do the math. It's all natural, and it's of such little importance that it shouldn't even raise complaints, it really shouldn't.

 

 

 

I don't think there should be an argument over this, but some people feel differently. Maybe a lot more feel differently. I'm asking you to go against this norm you seem to follow, and maybe it's too molded into you for you to do anything about it.

[Zierro]

Issy, no offense, but you seriously need to go back and read. You're only recycling arguments from the first few pages. Go to page 4. You'll see that I'm not offended by breastfeeding - I'm offended about the lack of empathy.

 

 

 

To Rush, sorry but if you think someone who is uncomfortable with breastfeeding should wait until they go home to eat - then I think the baby can wait one minute until the mother reaches seclusion. Better yet, the mother can buy a shawl which will solve the problem completely and the baby won't even have to wait.

 

 

 

I don't think there should be an argument over this, but some people feel differently. Maybe a lot more feel differently. I'm asking you to go against this norm you seem to follow, and maybe it's too molded into you for you to do anything about it.

 

 

 

Can we quit the two-sided arguments? I think you know exactly what I'm going to say.

[Turtlefemm]

I have read through this topic and have seen interesting points on both sides of this issue.

 

 

 

I am a mother and both of my sons were breastfed. When I was out in a public place, be it a restaurant, park, sporting event, picnic, etc. I fed my sons in the manner in which I personally felt comfortable. I always had a receiving blanket (a small flannel blanket used for swaddling, burping, and small messes) with me that I draped over the baby and myself when I fed him. I feel that there is no harm in allowing for discomfort of others in a situation like that, but I draw the line at being told that I should go into a bathroom, sanitary or not, and hide myself and my infant away like the feeding is a shameful thing. It is not a shameful thing at all. All of the arguments about bathrooms being clean, traumatizing other people's children, proper restaurant etiquette are being given by people who are not breastfeeding mothers, and very likely not husbands or partners of breastfeeding mothers. I find it very sad that anybody can think the act is something disgusting to see. It is simply feeding. The side issues of whether infants and small children should be allowed into certain restaurant atmospheres are not really about the breastfeeding, but excuses to cover discomfort that folks feel about the idea of possibly seeing a naked breast with an infant latched onto it. I think that a breastfeeding mother should be comfortable. Should she whip out a breast in plain view of everyone in some exhibitionist display? No... but that is not really what is being argued here. I have never seen a single breastfeeding mother making a huge issue out of yanking her shirt up and flashing the world. I have also seen breastfeeding mothers cramped into a corner of a public restroom attempting to feed their infants standing up, because there was only one stall and they didn't want to inconvenience someone who might need to use the toilet. That is just wrong... That they were made to feel so uncomfortable about feeding a child that they were struggling to do that... And no, that was not in some "fancy" restaurant, just a regular "family" type place.

 

 

 

My conclusion is that I will always be respectful to others. I was so when I was breastfeeding. But not at the expense of my own sense of worth and duty to my child. I was discreet, because I had respect for them, but I would not go be put in a corner like a shameful person. I would not be relegated to a bathroom like a shameful person.

 

 

 

I despise people who chew their food with their mouths open in restaurants.

 

I despise people who pick their noses in a public place.

 

I despise people who scratch their balls in public.

 

I despise people who scratch their [wagon] in public.

 

 

 

Those disgusting acts are perfectly all right and not called into any kind of decency light...

 

 

 

Yet breastfeeding is...

[issy2]

Issy, no offense, but you seriously need to go back and read. You're only recycling arguments from the first few pages. Go to page 4. You'll see that I'm not offended by breastfeeding - I'm offended about the lack of empathy.

 

 

 

To Rush, sorry but if you think someone who is uncomfortable with breastfeeding should wait until they go home to eat - then I think the baby can wait one minute until the mother reaches seclusion. Better yet, the mother can buy a shawl which will solve the problem completely and the baby won't even have to wait.

 

 

 

I don't think there should be an argument over this, but some people feel differently. Maybe a lot more feel differently. I'm asking you to go against this norm you seem to follow, and maybe it's too molded into you for you to do anything about it.

 

 

 

Can we quit the two-sided arguments? I think you know exactly what I'm going to say.

 

 

 

Sorry if I misunderstood, I'm personally not aware of recycling arguments...? :?

 

You'll see that I'm not offended by breastfeeding - I'm offended about the lack of empathy.

 

 

 

But it people aren't disgusted by it, there's no need for 'empathy'. The guy who started this thread has got to be one of, well, very few... and whether or not what she was doing was right/wrong, so was the mother. I also don't really understand why you don't feel empathy for the mother... Not criticising or anything, but if you believe in true empathy, wouldn't be arguing pro-breastfeeding in public? As I said... sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick

 

 

 

Turtlefemm - yours sounds like the perfect solution :)

[rushrock]

Well, for that last bit, I actually wasn't trying to be rude or anything. It's just that sometimes, social norms are hard to break.

 

 

 

Do you really think that will happen? Do you really think that people will actually lose their appetite from watching breastfeeding? What do you think we can say about people who do that?

 

 

 

And the truth is, you'll probably see some of the more curteous mothers wearing that shawl you suggest (correct me if I'm wrong, it's a rectangular piece of clothing worn much like a scarf), but they shouldn't have to. That's my argument. I think this through the reasons I've repeated over and over again. It's a basic, natural thing and shouldn't bother anyone because of the act's nature. Anyone who is disgusted at the act of breastfeeding is following this norm. This norm is what this whole discussion is all about. The younger generation is innocent. They have not matured yet. They will know and accept breastfeeding as a regular thing. That is exactly how to make people comfortable with something the quickest: when they're young. That's the best way to implicate certain state of minds, just like the honor code. And even so, I don't think it's very unreasonable to try and implicate it now anyway. People will become incensitised to it eventually and they will accept it. Everyone will accept it eventually, you know. They have to suck it up, realize the nature of such and act, and just accept it. It's a state of mind.

[Zierro]

But it people aren't disgusted by it, there's no need for 'empathy'. The guy who started this thread has got to be one of, well, very few... and whether or not what she was doing was right/wrong, so was the mother. I also don't really understand why you don't feel empathy for the mother... Not criticising or anything, but if you believe in true empathy, wouldn't be arguing pro-breastfeeding in public? As I said... sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick

 

 

 

It stems back into, "People shouldn't feel disgusted by it." Maybe they shouldn't, but the fact is that they do - much like some of us feel offended by bad table manners and improper etiquette.

 

 

 

Look, if you people really think I'm asking for much, then please think again. Read what Turtle had to say. I agree with her 100%. I'm not telling you to bend over backwards for society - only to have a little respect for those who find it uncomfortable. A blanket is completely sufficient. However, not budging one single bit in order to please both parties is lack of empathy.

[rushrock]

But it people aren't disgusted by it, there's no need for 'empathy'. The guy who started this thread has got to be one of, well, very few... and whether or not what she was doing was right/wrong, so was the mother. I also don't really understand why you don't feel empathy for the mother... Not criticising or anything, but if you believe in true empathy, wouldn't be arguing pro-breastfeeding in public? As I said... sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick

 

 

 

It stems back into, "People shouldn't feel disgusted by it." Maybe they shouldn't, but the fact is that they do - much like some of us feel offended by bad table manners and improper etiquette.

 

 

 

Look, if you people really think I'm asking for much, then please think again. Read what Turtle had to say. I agree with her 100%. I'm not telling you to bend over backwards for society - only to have a little respect for those who find it uncomfortable. A blanket is completely sufficient. However, not budging one single bit in order to please both parties is lack of empathy.

 

A mother shouldn't have to have respect for those who find it uncomfortable because such people who are uncomfortable cannot justify their feelings. I'm not saying mothers never have respect for those people, but I am saying that they don't have to because these feeligns aren't justified.

[Zierro]

The argument stems back into "people shouldn't feel a certain way". Do you really think the topic starter wants breastfeeding to make him lose his appetite? People can't control what they find unappetizing... Some people find the action uncomfortable, some don't. I could just as easily say, "It's not justifiable to breastfeed in a restaurant."

[Kenshinjapan]

i dont have a problem with breastfedding in public, but i wish they wouldn't, rude imo. what they could do like a normal person is milk before, and bring a bottle, what my sister-in-law does. if she at her house or ours or w\e she will breastfeed but not if she out

 

 

 

Some babies aren't strong enough to drink out of a bottle at that early of an age. You can't blame the baby for that.

 

 

 

Anyways, doesn't bother me, you're a perv if you had to stare and get offended by it.

[Topazjewel]

Breastfeeding doesn't bother me so long as the mother is making at least some sort of attempt to be discreet about it (which I've never seen one who wasn't, so it's never bothered me).

 

 

 

If I walked by a park bench I'd rather see a mother breastfeeding her child than a couple making out. Different people are affected by different things, but I think the baby's well-being is more important than a little discomfort (however much justified) on the part of a passer-by.

[Flodder450]

Saying that the baby must eat now! is just blowing things out of proportion for argument's sake. Baby's are known to wait a few minutes just like everyone else.

 

I don't know about all that, since I've never seen a baby wait 10 seconds before going off like 20 concussion grenades in an orchestra hall, and that's something that will disturb far more people than yourself.

siggiefied!!

[PizzaMan94]

Nothing wrong with it! i can understand discomfort around it... but still, its not wrong. its like when you get thirsty and take a drink from a cup of soda - same thing but its a breast of milk....

[doomy]

i dont have a problem with breastfedding in public, but i wish they wouldn't, rude imo. what they could do like a normal person is milk before, and bring a bottle, what my sister-in-law does. if she at her house or ours or w\e she will breastfeed but not if she out

 

 

 

Some babies aren't strong enough to drink out of a bottle at that early of an age. You can't blame the baby for that.

 

 

 

Anyways, doesn't bother me, you're a perv if you had to stare and get offended by it.

 

Tbh its not very fair for a mother to start breastfeeding in public, then if somebody looks she screams pervert. :P

[rushrock]

The argument stems back into "people shouldn't feel a certain way". Do you really think the topic starter wants breastfeeding to make him lose his appetite? People can't control what they find unappetizing... Some people find the action uncomfortable, some don't. I could just as easily say, "It's not justifiable to breastfeed in a restaurant."

 

I do see your point, but unless someone had severe mental problems (and that's a different argument), people can be desensitised to breastfeeding. And like I said, this is much easier with the younger generation, because once they see it, they will know it is acceptable, just like all of the things that we find to be second nature. That can happen with today's generation too. I don't really find it acceptable that such a disturbance exists (again, I don't know just how many get disturbed by this, you might be blowing it out of proportion) because of the action of such an act. It's a mother feeding her child and bonding with it. I fail to believe that people can't have a little sympathy and learn to accept it.

[Zierro]

I do see your point, but unless someone had severe mental problems (and that's a different argument), people can be desensitised to breastfeeding.

 

 

 

I don't think they should be though. I hope you know what I mean about two-sided arguments now. You feel the mother shouldn't have to worry, I feel that the people who get uncomfortable shouldn't have to worry.

 

 

 

Obviously, I'm not blowing things out of proportion - or else this thread wouldn't exist. I've also asked my aunt, mother, father, and brother about this. They all said breastfeeding shouldn't be allowed in a restaurant - at all, whereas I said it's fine as long as you can't see. So you see, I'm not the only one who feels this way, in fact, they feel stronger about it. My brother's girlfriend was the only one to disagree, and her supporting argument was "it's natural".

 

 

 

I fail to believe that people can't have a little sympathy and learn to accept it.

 

 

 

I fail to believe it too.

[rushrock]

I do see your point, but unless someone had severe mental problems (and that's a different argument), people can be desensitised to breastfeeding.

 

 

 

I don't think they should be though. I hope you know what I mean about two-sided arguments now. You feel the mother shouldn't have to worry, I feel that the people who get uncomfortable shouldn't have to worry.

 

 

 

Obviously, I'm not blowing things out of proportion - or else this thread wouldn't exist. I've also asked my aunt, mother, father, and brother about this. They all said breastfeeding shouldn't be allowed in a restaurant - at all, whereas I said it's fine as long as you can't see. So you see, I'm not the only one who feels this way, in fact, they feel stronger about it. My brother's girlfriend was the only one to disagree, and her supporting argument was "it's natural".

 

 

 

I fail to believe that people can't have a little sympathy and learn to accept it.

 

 

 

I fail to believe it too.

 

Well, I mean, obviously it is a two-sided argument. I always knew that. But yet we're still discussing it. :P

 

 

 

Surely they're not disgusted by it, though? Unless they're of the select few that are disturbed to the point of intolerance, I don't see why they can't accept the fact that it's just breastfeeding.