Iraq war, your opinions?

[jackattack]

Who's demanding that we leave immediately?

 

The Iraqi people are.

 

 

 

 

 

No they aren't. Maliki has asked for a timetable but once we begin drawing down they will probably give it up.

[dragoonson]

Who's demanding that we leave immediately?

 

The Iraqi people are.

 

 

 

 

 

No they aren't. Maliki has asked for a timetable but once we begin drawing down they will probably give it up.

 

 

 

So if Jagex brings back the wild people will give up wanting it?Brilliant!

[jackattack]

Theres a difference between withdrawing as conditions dictate and just a unilateral pullout regardless of what happens.

[BlueLancer]

We should have bombed iran a while ago. They are killing American troops. Thats enough for me. I mean I remember watching some thing with just William Delahunt by himself and one guy in an empty room. He was trying to find out what the disastrous consequences would be of bombing iran. This is a guy he picked by the way. The guy basically said that they wouldn't be able to do anything and we could destroy their air force within like 2 hours or something.

 

 

 

Sounds like a load of bull frankly, would be nice to have a link... Because Hezbollah beat Israel's army in the 2006 war over northern Lebanon using Iranian-made anti-air missiles, rockets, mortars, etc... IDF is funded largely by US foreign donations up to $3B per year, it was considered a proxy war with Iran involved..

 

 

 

Despite IDF mobilizing over 30,000 soldiers against Hezbollah's 1,000 active fighters, they couldn't beat them, and repeatedly got their assault helicopters shot down (in that case killing a LOT of IDF)

 

 

 

Iran has nothing to do with Iraq. Comparing their military capability is like comparing the economies of North and South Korea. Iran has a very motivated and modern military with proper equipment, unlike Saddam's underpaid, splintered-in-3-factions low moral conscripts who couldn't put up a fight and deserted quickly.

 

 

 

Read up on Iran's suicide squad program: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 56,00.html

 

 

 

Brainwashed for sure, but I don't know many countries capable of pulling that off and actually getting hundreds of volunteers. Americans, europeans, etc.. enlist for active duty, these people sign a form which guarantees the end of their life should a war commence upon their country..

[jackattack]

I'll look for one but I doubt I'll find it. I'm not gonna spen hours going over the cspan archives. I'm not talking about invading iran just bombing. The guy was some D.C. egghead who Delahunt picked. It was a one on one type of thing and yet Delahunt still looked foolish.

[RichieMcD]

I'll look for one but I doubt I'll find it. I'm not gonna spen hours going over the cspan archives. I'm not talking about invading iran just bombing. The guy was some D.C. egghead who Delahunt picked. It was a one on one type of thing and yet Delahunt still looked foolish.

 

 

 

Sure, let's go in and kill a small minority of the target Iranians while killing huge amount of innocent civilians simply because the small minority has killed American troops, something you've not even provided a source for proof of your claims.

 

 

 

One of my relatives was killed by British soldiers, does that justify me bombing Britain Jack? Same scenario, just on a smaller scale.

 

 

 

Ginger_Warrior, that is the best way of putting Iraq I've ever seen, next time I'm talking to a pro-Iraq person I'll mention that one :

[jackattack]

I didn't know you were in the Air Force. You know where and what they would bomb and what the collateral damage would be?

 

 

 

And thats not really a good analogy anyway.

[dragoonson]

Jack I didn't know you were that ignorant.Wasn't it your people who bombed innocents in Hiroshima twice?Retaliation for Pearl Harbor?They killed your troops you kill their civilians.Brave [wagon].

 

 

 

Even if Americans did that thing they did in Iraq where they harmed no civilians they aren't making themselves any more popular.

 

 

 

Apologies I'm sorry to say,do not help in any way.Sorry I cut out your balls,you can have mine if you want.

[jackattack]

It was Hiroshima and Nagasaki not Hiroshima twice. That wasn't retaliation it was to end the war and save probably a million lives. And it's not Iraq it's iran.

 

 

 

The thing I was remembering could be at the end of this. Not sure but I'm not watching 3 hours of William Delahunt and Ron Paul.

 

 

 

It was Delahunt and maybe one other guy interviewing some guy in an empty room.

 

 

 

http://cspan.org/search.aspx?For=william%20delahunt

[dragoonson]

I was taking that surgical bombing in Iraq as a reference,and are they not still civilians?Unless they magically changed into unicorns and military bases the facts are you bombed civilians to end a war.Don't tell me you'd bomb America if Al Qaeda took over and your citizens were stuck within...

[RichieMcD]

I didn't know you were in the Air Force. You know where and what they would bomb and what the collateral damage would be?

 

 

 

And thats not really a good analogy anyway.

 

 

 

When the bombing of cities occurred at the start of the Iraq war huge amounts of civilians were killed. The most commonly used bomb was a cluster bomb, these bombs can't be controlled as they drop smaller bombs the size of grenades over the distance of 3 football fields. When dropped over a city these will kill civilians, they are uncontrollable. It's like throwing a petrol bomb into a crowd of majoritly innocent people with a small group of hostiles. You can't control who will get burned.

 

 

 

Bomb Iran, and you will bomb innocent civilians.

 

 

 

sources

 

Civilians killed ------- Stick to latter pages for start of war figures

 

Cluster bombs

[dragoonson]

Found the name its Operation:Shock and Awe.Not the best way to gain publicity,but if we kill some of the Muslims its a bonus! :roll:

 

 

 

Don't say any thing about not killing them,unless you beamed Spock down,and Spock beamed all the Muslims in the buildings out,beaming them back down peacefully after the bombings.

[jackattack]

I'm not sure what types of bomb they used but the U.S. does all it can to avoid civilian casualties.

 

 

 

National Geographic researcher Bijal Trivedi stated that

Civilian casualties did occur, but the strikes, for the most part, were surgical.

[RichieMcD]

I'm not sure what types of bomb they used but the U.S. does all it can to avoid civilian casualties.

 

 

 

National Geographic researcher Bijal Trivedi stated that

Civilian casualties did occur, but the strikes, for the most part, were surgical.

 

 

 

This doesn't look like much avoidance to me. This only looks like the bombing of a group of civilians to me, anyone else agree?

 

7AXN3H3BPQU

[jackattack]

^^ You can tell that those are civilians? Wow you got some good eyes. I guess you know more than a trained pilot.

[dragoonson]

Quoting Wikipedia,here's some ways in history the bombings can be expressed/

 

 

 

[edit] Historical applications

 

 

 

According to its original theorists, Shock and Awe renders an adversary unwilling to resist through overwhelming displays of power. Ullman cites the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as an example of "shock and awe.".Ullman and Wade argue that there have been military applications that fall within some of the concepts of shock and awe. They enumerate nine examples:

 

 

 

Overwhelming force: The "application of massive or overwhelming force" to "disarm, incapacitate, or render the enemy militarily impotent with as few causualities to ourselves and to noncombatants as possible." -So that they noncombatants will be alive to say how Americans spared their lives,probably increasing popularity.

 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The establishment of shock and awe through "instant, nearly incomprehensible levels of massive destruction directed at influencing society writ large, meaning its leadership and public, rather than targeting directly against military or strategic objectives even with relatively few numbers or systems." -No crap,Sherlock they weren't even after military means.

 

Massive bombardment: Described as the "precise destructive power largely against military targets and related sectors over time." -Over time?The video I saw on Nat Geo wasn't that slow...It was pretty quick,according to journalists there,too.

 

Blitzkrieg: The "intent was to apply precise, surgical amounts of tightly focused force to achieve maximum leverage but with total economies of scale." -So their economy should survive?I'm not too sure.Because didn't they take out most stuff important to economy?

 

Sun Tzu: The "selective, instant decapitation of military or societal targets to achieve shock and awe." -Decapitation?Sounds violent!

 

Haitian example: The "imposing shock and awe through a show of force and indeed through deception, misinformation, and disinformation." -Self-explanatory,right?

 

The Roman legions: "Achieving shock and awe rests in the ability to deter and overpower an adversary through the adversarys perception and fear of his vulnerability and our own invincibility." -Yes!We are invincible!We have the Death Star!We have the Force!No,we just have lots of bombs

 

Decay and default: "The imposition of societal breakdown over a lengthy period, but without the application of massive destruction." -Have you seen the inside of the bombed buildings?I'd call that massive destruction.

 

Royal Canadian Mounted Police: The selective application of force emphasizing "standoff capabilities as opposed to forces in place" to attain military objectives. -What was the military objective here?

 

 

 

As for Jack,I have nothing to say to you.I so want that facepalm back.

[jackattack]

I'm not sure what types of bomb they used but the U.S. does all it can to avoid civilian casualties.

 

 

 

National Geographic researcher Bijal Trivedi stated that

Civilian casualties did occur, but the strikes, for the most part, were surgical.

 

 

 

This doesn't look like much avoidance to me. This only looks like the bombing of a group of civilians to me, anyone else agree?

 

7AXN3H3BPQU

 

 

 

[RichieMcD]

^^ You can tell that those are civilians? Wow you got some good eyes. I guess you know more than a trained pilot.

 

 

 

Ignore the ending part, that is debatable. Look at the first part though, where you see civilians cleaning up the remains for their houses. They are left without a home and were they compensated by the American government? No, no they weren't.

 

 

 

It looks much more like a civilian group rather than a militant group. I doubt a militant group would run down a open road, using common sense it looks much more like a group of civilians standing on the corner of the road looking at what remains of their homes.

 

 

 

Jackattack how would you like it if I bombed your house and possibly killed one or two of your family members while I was actually trying to attack a house 3 doors up from you? You wouldn't like it at all, you wouldn't like the fact that you've lost your home without compensation and that possibly some of your family members are dead. This was quite common during the bombings of major cities.

[1_man_army]

^^ You can tell that those are civilians? Wow you got some good eyes. I guess you know more than a trained pilot.

 

 

 

Isn't the job to make sure they're not civilians first rather than kill first ask questions later? If it's the latter then forget winning the hearts & minds of the people.

[Lenticular_J]

Mm, I wish people would stop arguing about Iraq in every single topic on this board. Only soldiers and Iraqis know what went on there. I have secondhand stories from soldiers, but of course I can't remember them exactly, so they'll be biased in my view. Quoting something like Youtube or any sort of media article these days isn't worth it, considering how easily they'll be biased horridly.

 

 

 

I may just make a thread about Iraq so people can actually argue in there, I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people screaming about it in every thread.

 

 

 

As to your questions, baalboy, I'm sorry, but they aren't as straightforward as you seem to believe. It's not like every single citizen agrees to every single armed conflict. You seem to think everyone agrees with every war, but that's obviously not true. If needed, there will be a vote, if not, then Congress typically draws up a declaration of war.

 

 

 

I don't understand what you're asking in the second question at all. Are you asking how they declare war? Usually a declaration of war, as I said. But if that's not your question, than I don't quite understand.

[Kriegsmier]

Blah blah blah, everyone put your democrat goggles on because thats the strong arm majority here and they express their opinions as such........more then half of them can't even vote.

[llamster]

*points to the two world wars* countries invaded france without a care in the world

 

Points to two dictators who ruled aggressive, hateful regimes. Besides, they knew France was an easy target.

 

 

 

At the beginning of the First world war I believe France was the second most powerful country in Europe (after Britain), and in WWII the French-German border was the most heavily defended in the world.

 

 

 

Damn you guys are good at modern history...I'm better with medival,like the Crusades.By the way,did Germany attack first or did Japan,in WWII?

 

 

 

Didn't it start when Germany invaded Poland?

 

 

 

Japan invaded China two years before Germany invaded Poland, but people thought of that as a war between Japan and China only, not a world war, so officially WWII started in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm not sure what types of bomb they used but the U.S. does all it can to avoid civilian casualties

 

Historians have established that a military base was the initial target, but due to bad weather, they couldn't operate in the area. They therefore turned to the nearest city, and released the bomb there. The nearest military base was miles away. You butchered thousands of innocent civilians for no apparent reason by subjecting them to the most powerful weapon mankind has ever created.

 

 

 

Would you care to explain how that's avoiding civilian casualties? Even Hitler targeted the docks in London.

[jackattack]

^^ I always thought the cities were the target? Anyways dropping the bomb ended the war early and saved a million American lives.

[Agunimon979]

^^ I always thought the cities were the target? Anyways dropping the bomb ended the war early and saved a million American lives.

 

 

 

But it killed probably hundreds of thousands of Japanese innocent people lives.

 

 

 

Anyways, I believe war is pointless. Sure, we blew Hiroshima right out of the ground with an atomic bomb, and this day we're good friends with Japan? Wtf?