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Price manipulation: right or wrong?


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#41
jettrider
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You can't call it right or wrong when it's such a gray area.



First, hoarding is not against the rules, but public manipulation is. So you and your buddies buying out Pharaoh's Sceptres are not breaking any rules, but people standing around or in clan chats or on forums saying "buy this item, it'll go up in price" are breaking the Item Scamming rule.



Also, very few of you actually appear to know how the real price manipulation works. Sitting around in Chessy's or ACIDY's chat is not being in a manipulating clan; that information is public. The real hoarding goes on in private forums and chatrooms with players who are actually rich, not just 10m tagalongs in public clan chats.



Manipulation is not really morally wrong, but for every winner, there is a loser. I am all for careful market watching but with such sudden [bleep]es and falls it's very easy to be unintentionally on the losing end. However, you need to be careful, and if an item is rising, think very carefully about why it is rising before putting an offer in for max. It's quite sad how many people are economically stupid and try to buy and sell at the wrong times. I also dislike how supply can be dried up by so few people and how certain items are at times unbuyable. However, I like to live outside the Grand Exchange, and I care little for the value of the items I use. Anything I need I have in my bank; everything I have, I need. I don't hold things hoping for them to [bleep]e up in value or put them in the Grand Exchange at minimum price. Any drops that I get go in a nice little stack in my bank until they [bleep]e in value.

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#42
CampbellMC
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It can not really be defined as being right or wrong, it just exists. There is no way that this will ever be changed, and it is only people who know how to watch the market and how to predict people who will profit massively. I know that I and many of my friends prefer to merch outside of a clan. There is not that many items that clans can actually influence greatly, because anything with too huge of a supply the market can handle merchants buying it out, even if they are paying in the billions. You can watch certain items (Most common being barrows items, yew/magic seeds, certain potions and a few other high priced items) and see exactly when the normal rise and fall is, then you can buy the items for below medium price, and sure enough the next day a clan will buy them out.

#43
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it is wrong because it effects the whole rs econamy and makes people who are already rich even richer
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#44
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it is wrong because it effects the whole rs econamy and makes people who are already rich even richer




Apart from the bad spelling, those reasons don't make something wrong.



Every RS update affects the whole economy. Many things change the prices of a lot of items, yet they're not necessarily bad. Almost every update throws a few items into demand, for example, a quest that requires a few specific items to finish.



People who are rich should get richer faster than those who aren't, because if you have more money to invest, you should be able to use more items and therefore make a bigger profit.



Keep in mind I don't think manipulation is right or wrong, but you need to discuss the means of what happens, making vague statements won't help.

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#45
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I don't like it, and because I'm stubborn you'll never change my opinion. It should be a bannable offense IMO; its bug abuse (abuse the GE's flaws to raise prices) and Item Scamming (People lose GP due to the actions of another player).
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#46
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I can't help but giggle like some friend's 6 year-old little sister at some of the arguments being tossed on the table in this discussion.



Let me start by pointing out the misdirection of this entire argument. Nothing is being "manipulated" here. The GE serves a defined purpose, with it's own limitations and functions. What these so-called "merchant clans" are simply doing, is apply the existing GE functions in a way which serves to create a profit. As many people have stated, it amounts to something close to capitalism. No, the word that's flying over everyone's head is called exploitation. Generally, there are laws in place which essentially abolish the existence of exploitative practices. Where we fall short, though, is that Runescape is a game. There is no state, no government, and the established free-market has full rights to operate in it's purest form. This is simply purist capitalism, where merchant clans, a private business essentially, are free to control trade in an attempt to profit: Which defines capitalism. By all means strive for Jagex to radify some sort of "eSherman Act", but you have to understand, the GE is not flawed, the game's mechanics are fine, you cannot complain. What is happening here, is an realistic marketing strategy, is being applied to an unrealistic game.



As for everyone who keeps citing "The rich get richer." People are not born rich. Wealth does not come from a genie's lamp, or from a fruit-bearing tree. In order to become rich, a foundation has to be laid. People becomes rich, because they've worked hard to do so, and they amass even more wealth, because of the hard work they put in to get to where they currently are. There's no one to blame but yourself for any financial shortcomings. Any dingbat with eyes can discern a particular flow in the market, and merchant clans take advantage of their ocular endowments, grasp the reigns of the horse, and take the throne for themselves. This is how the medieval era took place, and people who couldn't handle it, normally died off. Simply put, try harder.

#47
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I can't help but giggle like some friend's 6 year-old little sister at some of the arguments being tossed on the table in this discussion.



Let me start by pointing out the misdirection of this entire argument. Nothing is being "manipulated" here. The GE serves a defined purpose, with it's own limitations and functions. What these so-called "merchant clans" are simply doing, is apply the existing GE functions in a way which serves to create a profit. As many people have stated, it amounts to something close to capitalism. No, the word that's flying over everyone's head is called exploitation. Generally, there are laws in place which essentially abolish the existence of exploitative practices. Where we fall short, though, is that Runescape is a game. There is no state, no government, and the established free-market has full rights to operate in it's purest form. This is simply purist capitalism, where merchant clans, a private business essentially, are free to control trade in an attempt to profit: Which defines capitalism. By all means strive for Jagex to radify some sort of "eSherman Act", but you have to understand, the GE is not flawed, the game's mechanics are fine, you cannot complain. What is happening here, is an realistic marketing strategy, is being applied to an unrealistic game.



As for everyone who keeps citing "The rich get richer." People are not born rich. Wealth does not come from a genie's lamp, or from a fruit-bearing tree. In order to become rich, a foundation has to be laid. People becomes rich, because they've worked hard to do so, and they amass even more wealth, because of the hard work they put in to get to where they currently are. There's no one to blame but yourself for any financial shortcomings. Any dingbat with eyes can discern a particular flow in the market, and merchant clans take advantage of their ocular endowments, grasp the reigns of the horse, and take the throne for themselves. This is how the medieval era took place, and people who couldn't handle it, normally died off. Simply put, try harder.




Im not entirely sure of your opinion, but I do have to say that was quite an amazing post; especially the references to some actual economic regulations.
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#48
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If I'm not wrong, there's a difference between price manipulation and merchant-ing.



Merchant-ing is using strategy and skills of predicting the economy as accurately as possible to buy low and sell high. IMO, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with this, and I'm sure many people will agree with me. Merchant-ing needs skill. Such that not any man on the street will know how to do it.



Price manipulators use large amounts of money to change prices. They usually work in clans/large groups. I don't think its right, but it shouldn't be a bannable offence either. I mean, if they're willing to waste money to do pointless things like this... :roll:



You have to state what you mean - price manipulation or merchant-ing. I know your title is "price manipulation", but there are hints of merchant-ing in your posts.

#49
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It's wrong, but not against the rules.



Just like Thieving and Pking.
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#50
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^ :P



I think it's against the spirit of the game, but not bannable.



All we gotta do is when the item is being merched, all of us non-price manipulators sit still for a week or two, and wait for the price to fall, since when they dump, they sell at min, and if no one buys, then the price will keep going down until it reaches a stable level again. Maybe someone should start an anti-price manipulating clan, just to inform the masses of people which items are being merched and we should stay away from.

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#51
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^ :P



I think it's against the spirit of the game, but not bannable.



All we gotta do is when the item is being merched, all of us non-price manipulators sit still for a week or two, and wait for the price to fall, since when they dump, they sell at min, and if no one buys, then the price will keep going down until it reaches a stable level again. Maybe someone should start an anti-price manipulating clan, just to inform the masses of people which items are being merched and we should stay away from.






Haha it's funny you say that cuz I'm the leader of a clan who does that, and every item we've done so far has been succesful.
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#52
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Unless it is specifically against any rules, its right. If Jagex frowns upon this practice so much then they should ban it. If they are saying 'we dont like it but its legal' then it will just continue anyway.



I'm no economist but I do know that if something is too high a price, I won't buy it. I'd rather wait it out.

#53
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Unless it is specifically against any rules, its right.




this logic fails.







Lying to people isn't against the rules, but it isn't right. Many more examples of this IRL, and runescape too.

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#54
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In the context of the game, its right. Your lying example is also a prime example of game context. No issues with a lie as it is, but put this sort of thing into an item trade it could come under scamming rules or someone telling a lie to get someones password or encouraging to break rules. Price manipulation at this moment is not banned as yet, so its right.

#55
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I don't think all things are black and white, if they aren't wrong, it doesn't neccessarily mean it's right. I mean, it could be a double edged sword. Manipulation will make some people richer, and they will think it's right, but it will really ruin some poorer players and the economy, because of taking advantage of the GE system, so it's wrong.



And lieing has both right and wrong. A right lie would to a lie to help, like to comfort someone, while a wrong lie, like you said can be scamming. Or a wrong lie without personal gain, but still causes the other person a lot of harm/time wasted, can still be considered wrong.

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#56
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There are many things that aren't right that the rules don't cover.



Lying, kill stealing, etc.



It's impossible to say everything is either right or wrong in the rules.

#57
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In the context of the game, its right. Your lying example is also a prime example of game context. No issues with a lie as it is, but put this sort of thing into an item trade it could come under scamming rules or someone telling a lie to get someones password or encouraging to break rules. Price manipulation at this moment is not banned as yet, so its right.


You are confusing "right" with "allowed"

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#58
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The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.

#59
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The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.




So apparently the title can't be wrong?



Honestly, something being WRONG doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Lying is an obvious example. It is clearly wrong, but it is impossible for Jagex to create a system to identify liars or waste a lot of manpower doing it themselves.

#60
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If you ask me, price manipulation is fast, easy money, and its because the grand exchange is so easy to manipulate. Why not take the advantage.



Its not against the rules, and even if it was it would never be enforceable.
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