A Prisoner's Dilemma: We Need a Metagame

[Soma2035]

Note: This is going to be a long read. It will take you a while to read, and even longer to fully comprehend it if you are unfamiliar with competitive gaming in general. Don't bother responding if you don't have the patience and to read and fully understand the situation.

 

 

 

Two men are arrested. The prosecutor realizes that he can not convict either man without further evidence. The best he can hope for is to convict each man of a lesser charge that will incarcerate them for 3 years each.

 

 

 

Instead, he makes an offer to each prisoner in turn, without giving him a chance to consult with the other. "I will drop all charges against you if you testify against your partner." If both men testify against each other, they will each spend 5 years in prison. If one man testifies and the other does not, the turncoat goes free while the silent prisoner suffers 7 years in prison. This is what's commonly known as "The Prisoner's Dilemma", one of the various game theories. Simply put, no matter what the other person chooses, you will benefit by betraying.

 

 

 

Scenario 1) Your partner chooses to stay silent. In this case, if you betray him, you suffer no punishment. If you stay silent, you will be imprisoned for 3 years.

 

 

 

Scenario 2) Your partner betrays you. In this case, if you stay silent, you will receive 7 years in prison, while if you betray him as well, you will only spend 5 years.

 

 

 

Since in both cases, you are better off in betraying him, if you are searching for the optimal results, you will turn on him, and he will do the same. The result is that you both suffer 5 years in prison, when cooperation would yield in 3 years.

 

 

 

So how is this applicable in Runescape? Well, PvP worlds are exactly this. Neither player wants to die, both players want money, want to kill, and want to come out ahead. Most posts I've read in the past couple days reiterate the same point, "I don't want to die." And that, is the dilemma. PvP in Runescape is very defensively oriented. With high defense, your opponent will not hit you consistently, and the best they can hope for is perhaps 1 in 3 attacks hit. The damage system has a high degree of variability, so their average hit is low. Maximum hit points is 115, and you can potentially heal 38 HP per bite. Prayer cuts your maximum hit by another 30%. On top of all that, with them carrying vengeance and recoils, and with people randomly putting vengeance on each other, you literally need 8-9 solid good hits in a row... which is impossible, since that would've killed you with recoil already.

 

 

 

What you're left with is, if you are employing every method to prevent death, you will not die. No one can ever score a kill unless their opponent is inexperienced (which will not last long, they will learn sooner or later), or their opponent disconnects (which isn't common, because most people who have shaky internet connections realize this sooner or later and stop PKing).

 

 

 

So, following our scenario, you put every effort into staying alive. Try as you might, you can't possibly kill your opponent. Who's winning? You might say it's a draw, but it's not. Both you and your opponent are wasting 30k a fight on supplies. The winners here are the fisherman, laughing as they sell sharks to both of you suckers, and the herbists, swinging around their new AGS they bought with the money they raised from selling you potions.

 

 

 

This case isn't unique to Runescape. In general, most games with PvP have it designed in a way that rules need to be added. Hence, the metagame. For example, some games have limitations on what you are allowed to use. Games like those have super-characters who are, intentionally or non, completely unbalanced. The result is that everyone uses those characters, and the game is really pretty dull. Other games have a bunch of near invincibility moves. Everyone uses them, and a single fight goes from a fast paced strategy game to a 6 hour long, repetitive and dull match. The metagame exists for this reason: it makes the game "better" by adding rules into it that all players who participate agree to follow.

 

 

 

So what is Runescape's metagame? Well, we have some free floating rules that few people understand, and fewer people still follow. People who want to be involved in the competitive scheme need to understand these rules, and create the metagames they want to play in.

 

 

 

Now there's really two PKing "Areas" in Runescape. Safe, and Dangerous. By Dangerous, I mean in level 30 wilderness, far from any safe spot. Dangerous PKing, the way it stands now, doesn't need such rules. With teleblock, holding spells, dragon spears, and similar PKing tactics, dangerous PKing is a game that can be played smoothly. That's not to say some sort of rules would make it better, but rules are hard to apply as you don't have a choice in whether or not you want to fight.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, very few people PK in dangerous areas, probably because they're dangerous. They'd much rather hang around safe areas, where they can escape a fight easily if they're losing. However, this game, unlike the dangerous one, is greatly flawed. So the solution is to use the advantage you have, the ability to choose whether or not you are fighting, to apply artificial rules and create a safe-pking metagame.

 

 

 

There's really only two ways to kill someone. A) Stop them from escaping, run them out of supplies and kill them, or B) Overpower their healing supplies and kill them before they run out of them. A) is very difficult since if you freeze them, they teleport, if you teleport block, they run into safe zone. In either case, after they choose to stop, you essentially have 10 seconds to kill them IF THEY CHOSE TO RUN. B) is similarly impossible, since as pointed out, you're not going to be able to deal enough damage for a knockout.

 

 

 

Perhaps the most commonly played metagame right now is:

 

 

 

Single Style, Near-Safezone, Knockout-Oriented, No Safing, No Protection Prays / No Overhead Prays

 

 

 

Single Style - This reduces the effort of the fight. This also reduces the amount you lose if you disconnect, and also gives you more food, hence extending the fight and giving both you and your opponent more chances to knockout.

 

 

 

Near Safezone - Allows you to run, and fight only people who follow the same rules.

 

 

 

No Safing / No Protection Prays / No Overhead Prays - If you've followed me thus far, you understand that these things make knockouts impossible. By allowing your HP to fall under 50%, you are risking dying. In return, your opponent does the same. This gives both of you a better chance of killing and thus a better chance to turn profit. This is also the most controversial, probably because many people (both people who follow it and people who hate it) misunderstand it as a way to distract your opponent, or score easy kills.

 

 

 

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that these rules exist for a reason. I don't really agree or disagree with them, as I'm not a serious PKer. However, I *will* say, that if the near-safezone PKing style persists, we need a metagame. It doesn't have to be these rules, but a set of rules needs to be put in place, or else PKing in safezone has very little point. Even though I'm the fisherman and herbist who cares little how you waste the supplies I sell you, it's painful to watch PKers, wanna-be PKers, and non Pkers fight because of the currently poor PvP design, and over the attempts to make it better.

[Fools_Taco]

Note: This is going to be a long read. It will take you a while to read, and even longer to fully comprehend it if you are unfamiliar with competitive gaming in general. Don't bother responding if you don't have the patience and mental capacity to read and fully understand the situation.

 

 

 

Not a good start.

[Soma2035]

Note: This is going to be a long read. It will take you a while to read, and even longer to fully comprehend it if you are unfamiliar with competitive gaming in general. Don't bother responding if you don't have the patience and mental capacity to read and fully understand the situation.

 

 

 

Not a good start.

 

 

 

Well, recently I've seen more and more of what some people call RSOF people. They read one sentence and post "Omg no fair i want more stuff." or something along those lines, then they never look back again. :wall: Just a general warning to those people not to waste their time typing.

[tintin113]

Note: This is going to be a long read. It will take you a while to read, and even longer to fully comprehend it if you are unfamiliar with competitive gaming in general. Don't bother responding if you don't have the patience and mental capacity to read and fully understand the situation.

 

 

 

Not a good start.

 

:wall:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think RS needs this metagame thing, because no PKer is perfect and RS PKing is based partly on skill, partly on luck, and partly on who makes a mistake first, whether it be taking the risk not to eat to try for a KO, or whether you're just not able to click fast enough. You seem to be assuming that the two players will both be pretty much the same, and that the hits are even. You say one can't kill another because they need so many hits in a row, but this is where the skill comes into play: the stats of the players, and when they choose to eat. If someone's max is 50 and they hit you to 45, you might try to KO them instead of eating if possible, you might also eat. Also, wearing out someone's food supplies isn't as hard as you make out, and all PKers know of the potential costs of each fight, and they carry on PKing because the gain is bigger than the expense.

[Soma2035]

I don't think RS needs this metagame thing, because no PKer is perfect and RS PKing is based partly on skill, partly on luck, and partly on who makes a mistake first, whether it be taking the risk not to eat to try for a KO, or whether you're just not able to click fast enough. You seem to be assuming that the two players will both be pretty much the same, and that the hits are even. You say one can't kill another because they need so many hits in a row, but this is where the skill comes into play: the stats of the players, and when they choose to eat. If someone's max is 50 and they hit you to 45, you might try to KO them instead of eating if possible, you might also eat. Also, wearing out someone's food supplies isn't as hard as you make out, and all PKers know of the potential costs of each fight, and they carry on PKing because the gain is bigger than the expense.

 

 

 

The point is that without the existence of such rules, the situation you made out is impossible.

 

 

 

First of all, a max hit of 50 is impossible in typical PvP without special attacks or a slow weapon. Special attacks are limited in nature, and the weapons that can achieve this are usually very inaccurate, thus your 45 is rare, and following with another hit is rarer.

 

 

 

Second of all, note that 50 to 115 HP still leaves them with 65 HP. Add in the healing bite they respond with if they're "safing", and that means they have 103 HP again. Even if you hit two 30-30 dragon dagger specials in a row which is in itself very rare, you won't be killing your opponent. Vengeance and Recoil considered, after your specials are out, he'll be retaliating and it's your turn to heal up.

 

 

 

The real gain is bigger than expense in low level wilderness is that some people follow these rules. Hence why if you hang out around varrock west bank on a PvP world, you'll usually find people fighting by these rules, no prayer, no safing, etc. Except that people who DON'T follow these rules jump in, expect a fight, and then flame or get flamed back and forth.

 

 

 

The rules and structure for a metagame already exist. It just needs to be more clear to other players who want to enter the competitive scheme.

[Fools_Taco]

They should just make the dule arena generate drops just like a PK. That way 2 people can decide on the rules of the battle, duke it our and get the drops. Sounds like a win win to me.

[phata_elise]

I think you make an assumption that only applies to a part of the runescape community, namely: players only pk for profit.

 

 

 

What if I don't care about losing cash while pvp combat?

 

Why should I care that you lose money?

 

 

 

If I'm only in it for a challenge or even just to annoy others, I should be able to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

That being said, I do agree that the current system isn't that exciting. I wouldn't have any problems with generally not being able to eat during a fight or teleporting.

 

 

 

You wrote a good post and I think I understand why. I think you want a more exciting pvp combat system. I just don't think that enforcing "social" pk rules is the way to go and I prefer a more thorough solution.

 

 

 

my 2 cents.

[tintin113]

I don't think RS needs this metagame thing, because no PKer is perfect and RS PKing is based partly on skill, partly on luck, and partly on who makes a mistake first, whether it be taking the risk not to eat to try for a KO, or whether you're just not able to click fast enough. You seem to be assuming that the two players will both be pretty much the same, and that the hits are even. You say one can't kill another because they need so many hits in a row, but this is where the skill comes into play: the stats of the players, and when they choose to eat. If someone's max is 50 and they hit you to 45, you might try to KO them instead of eating if possible, you might also eat. Also, wearing out someone's food supplies isn't as hard as you make out, and all PKers know of the potential costs of each fight, and they carry on PKing because the gain is bigger than the expense.

 

 

 

The point is that without the existence of such rules, the situation you made out is impossible.

 

 

 

First of all, a max hit of 50 is impossible in typical PvP without special attacks or a slow weapon. Special attacks are limited in nature, and the weapons that can achieve this are usually very inaccurate, thus your 45 is rare, and following with another hit is rarer.

 

 

 

Second of all, note that 50 to 115 HP still leaves them with 65 HP. Add in the healing bite they respond with if they're "safing", and that means they have 103 HP again. Even if you hit two 30-30 dragon dagger specials in a row which is in itself very rare, you won't be killing your opponent. Vengeance and Recoil considered, after your specials are out, he'll be retaliating and it's your turn to heal up.

 

 

 

The real gain is bigger than expense in low level wilderness is that some people follow these rules. Hence why if you hang out around varrock west bank on a PvP world, you'll usually find people fighting by these rules, no prayer, no safing, etc. Except that people who DON'T follow these rules jump in, expect a fight, and then flame or get flamed back and forth.

 

 

 

The rules and structure for a metagame already exist. It just needs to be more clear to other players who want to enter the competitive scheme.

 

 

 

You know most people don't open with specs and eating and such, if you watch many decent PKers they'll save up a godsword spec or something. You seem to assume also that everyone uses ring of recoils and venges and just sits there spam eating the most expensive food. The average PKer fights someone with different stats and different armour and weapons to him, which is what allows the diversity in RS PKing.

[Ixindor]

I think you make an assumption that only applies to a part of the runescape community, namely: players only pk for profit.

 

 

 

What if I don't care about losing cash while pvp combat?

 

Why should I care that you lose money?

 

 

 

If I'm only in it for a challenge or even just to annoy others, I should be able to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

That being said, I do agree that the current system isn't that exciting. I wouldn't have any problems with generally not being able to eat during a fight or teleporting.

 

 

 

You wrote a good post and I think I understand why. I think you want a more exciting pvp combat system. I just don't think that enforcing "social" pk rules is the way to go and I prefer a more thorough solution.

 

 

 

my 2 cents.

 

 

 

AMEN! If these rules and regs you guys follow on a voluntary basis was implemented...we'd have to follow it too or not PK. It more than likely would upset more players than it helps, so the chances of it actually happening are pretty slim. Players like their freedoms. Whether they PK for fun, profit, or to annoy other players. What you are suggesting to be enforced is like the Trade Restrictions. Its there for a reason, but not alot of people like it.

[Hevendor_Guy]

Note: This is going to be a long read. It will take you a while to read, and even longer to fully comprehend it if you are unfamiliar with competitive gaming in general. Don't bother responding if you don't have the patience and mental capacity to read and fully understand the situation.

 

 

 

Not a good start.

 

 

 

It's a perfectly good start. Gets the idiots out.

 

 

 

OT: An EXCELLENT defense of why the "honor system" as some call it exists. I agree that if these super-cautious tactics persist, then we'll need a metagame. Most pkers will refrain from eating above ko potential (for the most part, I try to stay just a bit above my opponent's max but since I DH pk I kind of have to stay low-ish :mrgreen:), and that makes those fights both exciting and (usually) worth the effort.

 

 

 

You know most people don't open with specs and eating and such, if you watch many decent PKers they'll save up a godsword spec or something. You seem to assume also that everyone uses ring of recoils and venges and just sits there spam eating the most expensive food. The average PKer fights someone with different stats and different armour and weapons to him, which is what allows the diversity in RS PKing.

 

 

 

I assure you soma knows plenty about PKing if he's made this extensive of a writing about it. You assume he is new to it, when clearly he isn't.

[Ixindor]

Perhaps the most commonly played metagame right now is:

 

 

 

Single Style, Near-Safezone, Knockout-Oriented, No Safing, No Protection Prays / No Overhead Prays

 

 

 

Single Style - This reduces the effort of the fight. This also reduces the amount you lose if you disconnect, and also gives you more food, hence extending the fight and giving both you and your opponent more chances to knockout.

 

 

 

Near Safezone - Allows you to run, and fight only people who follow the same rules.

 

 

 

No Safing / No Protection Prays / No Overhead Prays - If you've followed me thus far, you understand that these things make knockouts impossible. By allowing your HP to fall under 50%, you are risking dying. In return, your opponent does the same. This gives both of you a better chance of killing and thus a better chance to turn profit. This is also the most controversial, probably because many people (both people who follow it and people who hate it) misunderstand it as a way to distract your opponent, or score easy kills.

 

 

 

Soma and I don't get along on these forums...but to offer up something constructive, what about changing the worlds to where these rules/restrictions are preset into the chosen world? It will definitely divide the player up even more, but atleast going into the world, you will know your predetermined rules/restrictions. That would level the playing field between the different types of PKers.

 

 

 

You do have a point. And I do acknowledge it. Its the whole Majority Rules that hinders progress. There are what? 15 P2P Worlds and 10 F2P Worlds? Call it a Social Experiment... Why So Serious?

[Soma2035]

Edited after Ixindor's second post...

 

 

 

Ixindor, reread the thread. Particularly the part about what a metagame is. It's obvious you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, since nowhere did I say Jagex should be changing anything. A metagame is something that players create and agree on, above and beyond what is created by the actual game makers.

[3hitm4g3u]

They should just make the dule arena generate drops just like a PK. That way 2 people can decide on the rules of the battle, duke it our and get the drops. Sounds like a win win to me.

 

 

 

Not a bad idea.

 

 

 

With a few specific pk rules (for example, all prayer except protect prayers, or even no eating above a set percentage of HP) with all of them being completely ---> OPTIONAL <--- it could be a good idea.

 

 

 

If Jagex actually listened to user feedback then they would be able to modify this into what the people wanted as well.

[pulli23]

please, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't eat?

 

 

 

Really I'm lost at the "social" part: I'm not going in a PVP world to make friends or fight friends (those kind of fights I would do at teh DUEL arena): the PvP worlds are WAR: and everything is allowed in love and war (and PvP worlds)..

 

 

 

 

 

Really I have my special tactic of eating very soon: and it makes me win 99% of the fights (I never fight near safe zones/only high lvl wilderness).. And using food early doesn't make runescape like russian roullette, it makes you can actually think about your moves instead of just hoping for the next shot to be miss.

 

 

 

Really the reason to "knock out" is way overrated: being able to do well in a long (5 min -f2p- battles are normal for me) fight is much better in my books!

[Ixindor]

Edited after Ixindor's second post...

 

 

 

Ixindor, reread the thread. Particularly the part about what a metagame is. It's obvious you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, since nowhere did I say Jagex should be changing anything. A metagame is something that players create and agree on, above and beyond what is created by the actual game makers.

 

 

 

I understand what a metagame is. You nor anyone else in this game can enforce it. Basically you are talking about something like a Clan. When 2 Clans clash, they usually agree to some preset rules. That is more plausible than just asking a bunch of random strangers to all rally under your idea. To give you an example. Head to Castle Wars on one of its busy worlds. Try and rally your team to do what you think is right to win the fight. And then see how many are following what you said and how many do their own thing. Its nigh impossible. So the suggestion...again, trying to be constructive here, will let the players choose what style they wish to play. No freedoms are compromised. Everyone gets a piece of the PK Pie!

[Soma2035]

please, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't eat?

 

 

 

Really I'm lost at the "social" part: I'm not going in a PVP world to make friends or fight friends (those kind of fights I would do at teh DUEL arena): the PvP worlds are WAR: and everything is allowed in love and war (and PvP worlds)..

 

 

 

 

 

Really I have my special tactic of eating very soon: and it makes me win 99% of the fights (I never fight near safe zones/only high lvl wilderness).. And using food early doesn't make runescape like russian roullette, it makes you can actually think about your moves instead of just hoping for the next shot to be miss.

 

 

 

Really the reason to "knock out" is way overrated: being able to do well in a long (5 min -f2p- battles are normal for me) fight is much better in my books!

 

 

 

Please, please, read the thread.

 

 

 

Winning a fight means you actually kill your opponent. Wasting 30k per trip a dozen times without ever getting close to killing someone doesn't appeal to the majority of PKers. If you want to play like that, fine. The point of this thread is that their should be a metagame made, so that people who agree to PK a certain way can do so with each other, with every side respecting one another.

 

 

 

I understand what a metagame is. You nor anyone else in this game can enforce it. Basically you are talking about something like a Clan. When 2 Clans clash, they usually agree to some preset rules. That is more plausible than just asking a bunch of random strangers to all rally under your idea. To give you an example. Head to Castle Wars on one of its busy worlds. Try and rally your team to do what you think is right to win the fight. And then see how many are following what you said and how many do their own thing. Its nigh impossible. So the suggestion...again, trying to be constructive here, will let the players choose what style they wish to play. No freedoms are compromised. Everyone gets a piece of the PK Pie!

 

 

 

... No, I am not talking about a clan. And yes, it's VERY easy to enforce. In fact, it's already being enforced. The only thing that needs to be done is to make it more established, such as official posts in certain areas.

 

 

 

Why is it so easy to enforce? Because everyone hangs around at safezones, you can just run. All you have to do is get all the PKers who want to PK one way to hang out at the same safezone on the same server, and have a list of the actual guidelines they use.

 

 

 

The point *is* to let players choose what style to play, but more importantly, to help them find the people who want to play with the same rules.

[Ixindor]

 

 

 

I understand what a metagame is. You nor anyone else in this game can enforce it. Basically you are talking about something like a Clan. When 2 Clans clash, they usually agree to some preset rules. That is more plausible than just asking a bunch of random strangers to all rally under your idea. To give you an example. Head to Castle Wars on one of its busy worlds. Try and rally your team to do what you think is right to win the fight. And then see how many are following what you said and how many do their own thing. Its nigh impossible. So the suggestion...again, trying to be constructive here, will let the players choose what style they wish to play. No freedoms are compromised. Everyone gets a piece of the PK Pie!

 

 

 

... No, I am not talking about a clan. And yes, it's VERY easy to enforce. In fact, it's already being enforced. The only thing that needs to be done is to make it more established, such as official posts in certain areas.

 

 

 

Why is it so easy to enforce? Because everyone hangs around at safezones, you can just run. All you have to do is get all the PKers who want to PK one way to hang out at the same safezone on the same server, and have a list of the actual guidelines they use.

 

 

 

The point *is* to let players choose what style to play, but more importantly, to help them find the people who want to play with the same rules.

 

 

 

LOL You are like a brick wall. Ok, I was using a Clan and their willingness to agree to preset rules as an example. You failed to understand me. I'm not talking about building a Clan (although that may not be a bad idea). I'm talking about how they agree upon things before a clash. You also failed to address the Castle Wars scenario. Unless you bring a clan or friends that will follow you, the random players there will NOT do what you say...even if it is a winning strategy. You say it is easy to enforce. What's to stop a bigger group from crashing you? Try as you might, it will ultimately fail. The people speak for themselves and most do not agree with you.

 

 

 

Afterthought: Lets say you and your group of like-minded players are chilling in Fally. You follow what ever rules you want. Then a group of equal size and levels comes in and picks fights with you. As we use what is available to use to fight, you stand there and lose ground as you try to hang onto your honor. Then you either die or retreat to a bank...while we all sit outside and wait for you to log out. What is the point?

[pulli23]

please, please explain to me WHY I shouldn't eat?

 

 

 

Really I'm lost at the "social" part: I'm not going in a PVP world to make friends or fight friends (those kind of fights I would do at teh DUEL arena): the PvP worlds are WAR: and everything is allowed in love and war (and PvP worlds)..

 

 

 

 

 

Really I have my special tactic of eating very soon: and it makes me win 99% of the fights (I never fight near safe zones/only high lvl wilderness).. And using food early doesn't make runescape like russian roullette, it makes you can actually think about your moves instead of just hoping for the next shot to be miss.

 

 

 

Really the reason to "knock out" is way overrated: being able to do well in a long (5 min -f2p- battles are normal for me) fight is much better in my books!

 

 

 

Please, please, read the thread.

 

 

 

Winning a fight means you actually kill your opponent. Wasting 30k per trip a dozen times without ever getting close to killing someone doesn't appeal to the majority of PKers. If you want to play like that, fine. The point of this thread is that their should be a metagame made, so that people who agree to PK a certain way can do so with each other, with every side respecting one another.

 

 

 

 

Hey: you ever saw that place near al kharid? You know where that emerald ring (enchanted) can take you towards to?

 

 

 

That's the place I say you should go to if you want regulated fights with actual rules and these kind of things!

[Soma2035]

 

 

 

I understand what a metagame is. You nor anyone else in this game can enforce it. Basically you are talking about something like a Clan. When 2 Clans clash, they usually agree to some preset rules. That is more plausible than just asking a bunch of random strangers to all rally under your idea. To give you an example. Head to Castle Wars on one of its busy worlds. Try and rally your team to do what you think is right to win the fight. And then see how many are following what you said and how many do their own thing. Its nigh impossible. So the suggestion...again, trying to be constructive here, will let the players choose what style they wish to play. No freedoms are compromised. Everyone gets a piece of the PK Pie!

 

 

 

... No, I am not talking about a clan. And yes, it's VERY easy to enforce. In fact, it's already being enforced. The only thing that needs to be done is to make it more established, such as official posts in certain areas.

 

 

 

Why is it so easy to enforce? Because everyone hangs around at safezones, you can just run. All you have to do is get all the PKers who want to PK one way to hang out at the same safezone on the same server, and have a list of the actual guidelines they use.

 

 

 

The point *is* to let players choose what style to play, but more importantly, to help them find the people who want to play with the same rules.

 

 

 

LOL You are like a brick wall. Ok, I was using a Clan and their willingness to agree to preset rules as an example. You failed to understand me. I'm not talking about building a Clan (although that may not be a bad idea). I'm talking about how they agree upon things before a clash. You also failed to address the Castle Wars scenario. Unless you bring a clan or friends that will follow you, the random players there will NOT do what you say...even if it is a winning strategy. You say it is easy to enforce. What's to stop a bigger group from crashing you? Try as you might, it will ultimately fail. The people speak for themselves and most do not agree with you.

 

 

 

Afterthought: Lets say you and your group of like-minded players are chilling in Fally. You follow what ever rules you want. Then a group of equal size and levels comes in and picks fights with you. As we use what is available to use to fight, you stand there and lose ground as you try to hang onto your honor. Then you either die or retreat to a bank...while we all sit outside and wait for you to log out. What is the point?

 

 

 

You should honestly go away now. You've just proved you didn't even read my thread.

 

 

 

A) I never said those are the rules you should follow. I said that's the set of rules that currently exists, and that a set of rules needs to exist. I never said that we need to go by those rules.

 

 

 

B) Okay, now explain to me... why the heck would that group of players choose a multi location? And no one's going to die, because they just walk out. This has nothing to do with honor whatsoever.

 

 

 

C) Realizing that there's no risk for them, they can always stop following the rules long enough to waste all of your supplies and runes. Again, with no risk, because the bank is right there and you're not going to ko when your max hit is ~70, max HP is 115 and you heal two 38s for every 70 ags special. Not to mention someone else can always jump in and ruin your chance of killing one of these people.

 

 

 

Read the thread, then post. Or else go post somewhere else.

[Ixindor]

A) I never said those are the rules you should follow. I said that's the set of rules that currently exists, and that a set of rules needs to exist. I never said that we need to go by those rules.

 

 

 

That...in and of itself is a contradictory statement. Why have the rules exist if we need not follow them?!? #-o

 

 

 

B) Okay, now explain to me... why the heck would that group of players choose a multi location? And no one's going to die, because they just walk out. This has nothing to do with honor whatsoever.

 

 

 

Its called an example. The point is...no matter where you go, Multi or not...if you choose to have an honor system and hang out in numbers, with out it being enforced (aka the Worlds enforce the various rule types) you are just fodder for the players that play the way they want. You will be forced to abandon any type of honor system you use in these areas...or die.

 

 

 

C) Realizing that there's no risk for them, they can always stop following the rules long enough to waste all of your supplies and runes. Again, with no risk, because the bank is right there and you're not going to ko when your max hit is ~70, max HP is 115 and you heal two 38s for every 70 ags special. Not to mention someone else can always jump in and ruin your chance of killing one of these people.

 

 

 

You are right. You abandon your honor system to annoy/win/die. Proving my point. These ideas of yours can't be enforced. Player do what they need to survive. Just the way it is. I really do admire your passion about it, but its just not possible without it being actually IMPLEMENTED into the system (World).

 

 

 

Pardon me for being the voice of reason... :?

[Smapla]

wow how'd you write that without once using the term game theory?

[Roberthree]

I'm heavily involved in the Smogon Pokemon Metagame and I think a RS metagame would be great.

 

 

 

No restriction Pokemon matches are full off sleep abuse and Ubers. No restriction RS matches are full of prayer teleporting pjing and general annoyance.

 

 

 

Add the standard clauses to Pokemon (Sleep, Freeze, Species, Tiers, ect) and you get a diverse metagame with various techniques and strategies. I'd love to see a RS metagame where not only are cheap strategies banned, but things like DDSs and Whips are banned to. I think we'd see alot more diversity with more rules enforced.

[highlanders]

Yeah I see what you mean. If everyone keeps safing, no one will be able to kill anyone, which is bad for everyone. But the problem is that you will have fighters supposedly fighting to death, but then the person who is losing will just turn prayer on, teleport, and run away. No one would willingly accept defeat if they can avoid it. The only solution I see is to have a group of pkers who understand this to go fight in deep wilderness, away from safe spots, use a teleblock and the fight is to the death.

[Rebel_Ry]

How come its always like "no prayer" when these rules are made? Are the pures angry at us for cutting down the hold time of their spells? are they mad they can't use the uber piety? And before you say they slow down the fight, doesn't armor slow it down to? and how about def and mage lvls, should those be banned to? To me, these "honor" rules just seem like the pures way of getting the advantage against average players. And if these rules aren't created by pures (the majority in pvp) then why not use the full potential of the combat lvl?

[highlanders]

How come its always like "no prayer" when these rules are made? Are the pures angry at us for cutting down the hold time of their spells? are they mad they can't use the uber piety? And before you say they slow down the fight, doesn't armor slow it down to? and how about def and mage lvls, should those be banned to? To me, these "honor" rules just seem like the pures way of getting the advantage against average players. And if these rules aren't created by pures (the majority in pvp) then why not use the full potential of the combat lvl?

 

It's got nothing to do with prayers like piety. Actually, in this scenario, using piety is a good idea. The point is that when two people "safe" as in: use things that increase their defence, the fight will last longer, which means that you will use several ks in potions and food, and in the end everybody loses supplies. If two adversaries use no protective prayer, no defense potions, no food, no teleports, no running to safe spots, and only use offensive bonuses from prayers/potions, the fight will end very quickly, and both parties save money that they would have otherwise used up in supplies. The bottom line is, there is no need to make the fight last longer than it needs to be, because the longer it goes on, the more you waste money on supplies. Say you waste 20k in supplies per fight, at 20 fights, that's already 400k. Like he said, in the end, it's the people who sold you the supplies that are making the big bucks off your back.