Communism - Yea or Nay?

[dangeresque]

No, for pretty much all of the reasons stated before.

 

 

 

I would really like to see true, 100% socialism & Communism implemented in a country with more than 13 people so people could actually see how bad it really works.

[Hiierarch]

I say nay, but what if such a system were implemented to where only a percentage of the population is affected by it. I'm unsure of whether it would work but what if I system pertaining to average yearly income, hourly income, profession, education, etc. So instead of the entire population as a communist country, maybe people making less than 10,000 dollars per year could contribute to it. Also it could possibly be voluntary? People with higher education and more advanced jobs but still making a low amount could be excluded. I suppose really, I'm suggesting a sort of government welfare program with communism as the basis idea for the structure of the system.

[baalboy5]

Anyone in TIF actually communist?

 

 

 

 

 

Its a nice theory, but..

 

O crap! :wall:

[folmer_veeman]

Communism rocks on paper, but the point is that people slack because they get paid anyway, and thus it fails in practice. If the world would get a change in morality and people would become more altruistic, it would work.

[warri0r45]

I think it's about time people gave up the cliche catch-cry of communism being "good on paper". I don't know about you guys, but someone bagging my groceries earning as much as my doctor sounds crap to me, and that's what communism basically is on paper.

[l0l0lpur32]

Communism and any form of freedom cannot exist side-by-side, and no it isn't "good on paper" (although all manifestations of it in the real world, have being worse than how it "is on paper")

[l0l0lpur32]

oops double post

[dsavi]

This post didn't make any sense!

[InkofDeath]

It won't ever work with humans. We're to smart to realize the effects it has on others and ourselves, and how it undermines the work and potential we carry.

 

 

 

Now lower communism onto less intelligent species and it works out great. There's far too many species living and abiding by the same principles of communism and they get by fine. Then again they do need to survive, and their main goal is to reproduce and continue on the species, thus everyone contributes in their population in hopes of it expanding.

 

 

 

Most humans aren't leaders, or don't have the responsibility levels to be one. This is why most of us would rather someone make and think out the decisions and we just say yes or no to them without really giving it a thought.

[l0l0lpur32]

A capitalist economy works out fine for the United States,

 

No, it doesn't. If America was a socialist or even communist nation, the economy probably wouldn't have crashed, because you wouldn't have been allowed to do the things that caused the economy to crash. (Giving people loans that they can't afford, etc.- If I remember right Bush voted for the deregulation of the financhial market which allowed just that.)

 

 

The whole argument that all problems in the economy (recessions etc) would come to an end in a command economy is a joke.

[Promise]

*My post does not reflect the views or opinions of Tip.It in any way, all opinions are my own.

 

 

 

I think the only positive side to communism that I'd love to have is not hear so much crap about our government from the media. :thumbup: Half the things I hear are, "We are most likely definitely sure that Obama/Mc Cain/USA is *insert crap here*."

 

 

 

A capitalist economy works out fine for the United States,

 

No, it doesn't. If America was a socialist or even communist nation, the economy probably wouldn't have crashed, because you wouldn't have been allowed to do the things that caused the economy to crash. (Giving people loans that they can't afford, etc.- If I remember right Bush voted for the deregulation of the financhial market which allowed just that.)

 

 

 

 

You can't blame every single person that's gone bankrupt for our recession. People COULD afford those loans, but that was before banks jacked up interest rates. It's that insignificant group of people, along with the banks who caused this domino like effect. About that Bush thing, I think he did want it regulated, but the people he choose were unable to prevent this from happening...please don't get me started. :-w

[The Dark Lord]

I suppose that I would have to admit that I have some Socialist leanings. I love the idea of an egalitarian society; it would really help solve some major crap that goes on in the world today.

 

 

 

It's sad that America is so afraid of any other ideas. They demonize other philosophies and nations, and the citizens fail to educate themselves on the very subject that they were taught to hate without question. So it's bad when a corrupt government controls its citizens' every action, but it's perfectly okay for students to be forced to salute the American flag?

[brunokiller]

Communism not only is terrible, not only is impossible (all deviations from Marxism are Socialism), but it's a topic that needs to be left in the past, and advocates of it are either a) looking for attention, or B) have no idea what they are advocating.

 

 

 

I have a friend from the DDR (GDR, East Germany), and I can tell you that no matter how much he may reminisce on the old times. On the meetings everyday after school in the young socialist pioneers, to the events put on by all of the older youth in their blue uniforms in the FDJ (Friere Deutsch Jugend), and the frequent reminders of the Stasi (1 informant to every 66 persons)*, who might be your neighbour, watching and recording every person who walks into your house, or your antenna pointing towards the BR (West Germany). That when that the wall came down, they wouldn't dare turn back. That they may finally watch West German TV, may finally burn those Honecker portraits, may finally live without, and have access to, the Stasi and its mountains of files on every person.

 

 

 

*Soviet Union KGB 1:5300, Third Reich Gestapo 1:1200

 

 

 

Have you been living under a rock or something? Our own governments(yes, of democratic countries) do the same thing.

 

The websites you visit, the phone calls you make are stored in a large database for years.

 

 

 

Apparently it helps fighting against terrorism :|

[dsavi]

A capitalist economy works out fine for the United States,

 

No, it doesn't. If America was a socialist or even communist nation, the economy probably wouldn't have crashed, because you wouldn't have been allowed to do the things that caused the economy to crash. (Giving people loans that they can't afford, etc.- If I remember right Bush voted for the deregulation of the financhial market which allowed just that.)

 

The whole argument that all problems in the economy (recessions etc) would come to an end in a command economy is a joke.

 

I agree, but what made you quote my post to say that?

[Housepig]

Communism not only is terrible, not only is impossible (all deviations from Marxism are Socialism), but it's a topic that needs to be left in the past, and advocates of it are either a) looking for attention, or B) have no idea what they are advocating.

 

 

 

I have a friend from the DDR (GDR, East Germany), and I can tell you that no matter how much he may reminisce on the old times. On the meetings everyday after school in the young socialist pioneers, to the events put on by all of the older youth in their blue uniforms in the FDJ (Friere Deutsch Jugend), and the frequent reminders of the Stasi (1 informant to every 66 persons)*, who might be your neighbour, watching and recording every person who walks into your house, or your antenna pointing towards the BR (West Germany). That when that the wall came down, they wouldn't dare turn back. That they may finally watch West German TV, may finally burn those Honecker portraits, may finally live without, and have access to, the Stasi and its mountains of files on every person.

 

 

 

*Soviet Union KGB 1:5300, Third Reich Gestapo 1:1200

 

 

 

Have you been living under a rock or something? Our own governments(yes, of democratic countries) do the same thing.

 

The websites you visit, the phone calls you make are stored in a large database for years.

 

 

 

Apparently it helps fighting against terrorism :|

 

 

 

Yes, we are monitored to a certain extent, but we still have the freedom to (theoretically) do what we want -- within reason. I'm not saying this is necesarily a good thing, but comparing how we are monitored to Communist oppresion is spurius.

 

 

 

Personally, I think that Communism is entirely unfair; people are not inherantly equal, and should not be treated as such. People should have equal oppurtunities, but not equal status, and that is essentialy what democratic capitalism tries to acheive. It dosen't, in many circumstances, work, of course, but it's still alot more "fair" than Communism.

[oegly41]

People who bash communism do so from a neo-liberalist prospective. It is true that most societies are neo-liberalist, but that doesn't mean that communism must accept a neo-liberalist society. ("Neo-liberalism" basically means "free trade", and is associated with people like Reagan and Thatcher, people who would allow governments to control trade.)

 

 

 

You claim that communism isn't fair, because people wouldn't be rewarded for harder work. This is completely cultural, and has hardly got anything to do with human nature. Let's say that a bagger, who spends his days putting groceries into a bag, gets a minimum wage of 100 (just to take a number) quid (just to take a currency) per week. A doctor, who has gone through eight years of education and spends her days working hard to save lives get a maximum wage of 150 quid per week. This might not seem like a big difference, but this is because you are told so by culture. If these people are told that one of them is poor, while the other one is rich, that would be accepted. They both have enough to survive, but the doctor can get that extra snicker (or some socialist chocolate bar) on pay day, and she is told that that is what being rich is.

 

 

 

Even if we say that everyone get an equal pay, people would still take the more difficult jobs out of interest. People would become scientists to discover more, lawyers to serve law and doctors to save lives. If someone would become a doctor because of the social status or the wages, and doesn't care whether the patient lives or dies, I wouldn't like to be treated by that doctor.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I think that Communism is entirely unfair; people are not inherantly equal, and should not be treated as such. People should have equal oppurtunities, but not equal status, and that is essentialy what democratic capitalism tries to acheive. It dosen't, in many circumstances, work, of course, but it's still alot more "fair" than Communism.

 

Isn't "Everyone is created equal, if you are unable to work, too bad" the base principle of capitalism?

[warri0r45]

People who bash communism do so from a neo-liberalist prospective. It is true that most societies are neo-liberalist, but that doesn't mean that communism must accept a neo-liberalist society. ("Neo-liberalism" basically means "free trade", and is associated with people like Reagan and Thatcher, people who would allow governments to control trade.)

 

 

 

You claim that communism isn't fair, because people wouldn't be rewarded for harder work. This is completely cultural, and has hardly got anything to do with human nature. Let's say that a bagger, who spends his days putting groceries into a bag, gets a minimum wage of 100 (just to take a number) quid (just to take a currency) per week. A doctor, who has gone through eight years of education and spends her days working hard to save lives get a maximum wage of 150 quid per week. This might not seem like a big difference, but this is because you are told so by culture. If these people are told that one of them is poor, while the other one is rich, that would be accepted. They both have enough to survive, but the doctor can get that extra snicker (or some socialist chocolate bar) on pay day, and she is told that that is what being rich is.

 

 

 

Even if we say that everyone get an equal pay, people would still take the more difficult jobs out of interest. People would become scientists to discover more, lawyers to serve law and doctors to save lives. If someone would become a doctor because of the social status or the wages, and doesn't care whether the patient lives or dies, I wouldn't like to be treated by that doctor.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I think that Communism is entirely unfair; people are not inherantly equal, and should not be treated as such. People should have equal oppurtunities, but not equal status, and that is essentialy what democratic capitalism tries to acheive. It dosen't, in many circumstances, work, of course, but it's still alot more "fair" than Communism.

 

Isn't "Everyone is created equal, if you are unable to work, too bad" the base principle of capitalism?

 

 

 

A sense of fairness has everything to do with human nature. Regardless, it doesn't matter. If a society takes a perspective and says no to Communism, then pointing that out isn't helping your argument any. As you said, it just so happens that many in the West think that the prospect of everyone earning the same is unfair.

 

 

 

Let me ask you the question: do you think it would be fair for a bagger and doctor to earn the relative amounts of money you suggested? What about if they earned the same amount of money?

 

 

 

I'm also interested in this sentence you wrote:

It is true that most societies are neo-liberalist, but that doesn't mean that communism must accept a neo-liberalist society.

Communism is an ideology. It's not in the business of accepting or rejecting other ideologies. It's the people (societies) that accept or reject it. I suppose you meant to say that Communists don't have to accept neo-liberalist society. That's fine, so long as you can find a country that will have you. I think you already know that you're on the back foot in that sense.

[MC_Kejml]

I smell a troll not avery good discussion.

 

 

 

I sure hope so, I still am in the first page on this thread and there are a lot of different opinions. Not some forum high post count dude who defines the opinion of the board.

 

 

 

As for me and communism, I am very unsure about it, since I wasnt really against it, but I read 1984 recently... ;) But hey, that could apply for the other political side, too.

 

 

 

As for the work hard reap a lot, be lazy reap nothing... No. Just no. There are other factors, such as luck - whether you get the position you desire, whether there are many other people going for it, whether you had a chance to even think about it...

 

Like our family. They have been educated Russian language, since Czech Republic was one time a member of the Warszaw pact ( I think :x ) and now, when english is the new great language, they simply didn't get the chance to learn it as fluently as the former.

 

 

 

I'd go with socialism, but am not sure about communism.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

Have you been living under a rock or something? Our own governments(yes, of democratic countries) do the same thing.

 

The websites you visit, the phone calls you make are stored in a large database for years.

 

 

 

 

Big brother is watching you :)

 

 

 

About the next post... In communism, a broad audience of people knew that there are these watchers around them. In the new society, they are just figuring it out for themselves... And I could quote Tyler Durden from fight club right now.

[oegly41]

 

A sense of fairness has everything to do with human nature. Regardless, it doesn't matter. If a society takes a perspective and says no to Communism, then pointing that out isn't helping your argument any. As you said, it just so happens that many in the West think that the prospect of everyone earning the same is unfair.

 

 

Fairness is a great part of human nature, but the definition of what is fair is not. Some mindsets say it's fair that everyone can use their abilities to do whatever they want, while some mindsets find it fair that everyone have the same living standard.

 

 

 

Capitalism/neo-liberalism is based upon the principle that everyone have equal opportunities. However, it leads to the ones with greater abilities and the ones who come first can gather enough resources to dominate over the less fortunate. It's good in theory, but it just won't work in reality.

 

 

 

Let me ask you the question: do you think it would be fair for a bagger and doctor to earn the relative amounts of money you suggested? What about if they earned the same amount of money?

 

Yes.

 

 

 

 

I'm also interested in this sentence you wrote:

It is true that most societies are neo-liberalist, but that doesn't mean that communism must accept a neo-liberalist society.

Communism is an ideology. It's not in the business of accepting or rejecting other ideologies. It's the people (societies) that accept or reject it. I suppose you meant to say that Communists don't have to accept neo-liberalist society. That's fine, so long as you can find a country that will have you. I think you already know that you're on the back foot in that sense.

 

Culture is dominated by the ideologies a society is based upon. I apologize for the unclear formulations, but it seems that you got the meaning out of what I tried to say.

[warri0r45]

Capitalism/neo-liberalism is based upon the principle that everyone have equal opportunities. However, it leads to the ones with greater abilities and the ones who come first can gather enough resources to dominate over the less fortunate. It's good in theory, but it just won't work in reality.

 

 

 

I don't think it's perfect either. In fact I'm not really one for pure free-market capitalism. I favour a bit of socialism and economic regulation as well. Obviously nothing quite as extreme as Communism, so we don't agree there, but not completely right-wing economically, either.

 

 

 

As for your answer of yes to my question, what to you is fair about a doctor doing years of hard study to earn $X a week if a grocery bagger can earn the same on a little bit of relatively easy training? You can see what I'm saying here, can't you?

[l0l0lpur32]

people would still take the more difficult jobs out of interest.

 

Rubbish.

[warren211]

The thing about Communism is that some of its standards have already deemed completely corrupt by Western society. As the current argument rages, one of the big things is whether different professions should get the same wage. In modern, capitalist society, we are told that the harder you work, the better off you'll be. So naturally the first instinct of a capitalist advocate or even the common man in society would be "Doctor getting paid the same as a bag boy? Unfair!". If those same people were born and raised under Communist ideals then they'd believe that their profession choice is not by how successful it would make you but how well you'd use your skills and how it would benefit society, because Communism seems to be less focused on the individual. A common man today would, when proposed with a job, ask immediatly "how much does it pay?". A communist would learn not to do that, that payment amount is not important for anything. So I guess the only way society as a whole would accept Communism is if the ideals were implemented into the roots of everyones brain first, before the whole system was established in a country. Otherwise, people with today's capitalist ideals being forced into Communism would lose their work ethic entirely. Why work so hard every day when you won't earn anything more than the guy who bags groceries for a living?

[RichieMcD]

I'm a socialist, but that's because I don't pay any of my taxes.

 

 

 

Yes, as well all know the first step to spreading the wealth is not contributing to the state at all, nice contradiction. If everyone chose to pay taxes the gap between the social classes would further increase by quite a lot.

[RussianFed55]

Have you been living under a rock or something? Our own governments(yes, of democratic countries) do the same thing.

 

The websites you visit, the phone calls you make are stored in a large database for years.

 

 

 

Apparently it helps fighting against terrorism :|

 

 

 

PATRIOT Act=/=Stasi.

 

 

 

How can you even compare such things with sanity?

[speedofsound]

Communism is an awesome idea. In theory. In practice it will never work. Besides the obvious problems with people getting greedy there's the fact that there is no incentive for people to go through 8 years of training to be a doctor when he/she wil make about the same wages as the guy sweeping the streets.