Do You Support Capital Punishment?

[Zonorhc]

There is no way you can prove 100% that someone murdered someone. There is always an alternate scenario that could of taken place. Killing people isn't the answer.

 

Which is why cases have to be proven to a degree beyond reasonable doubt.

 

 

 

On a more moral note, what makes you think any single one of you have the right to decide whether another human being should live or die? What makes you so much better than they are? Every single one of you has done something wrong in your life before and I'm sure if every single person on earth was asked if they wanted you to be excecuted, at least one person would say yes.

 

I didn't just start shooting in a crowded train station. I didn't just sell state secrets to a foreign power. I didn't just endanger thousands of lives by supplying narcotics. I didn't just molest a child. I didn't just rape several women.

 

 

 

That is the difference between me and an inmate on death row. More importantly, that is the difference between the judge and the jury, and the defendant.

 

 

 

When an individual chooses to endanger society, they forfeit all rights to their humanity. Moreover, it should no longer be the society's responsibility to keep them safe and in comfort.

 

 

 

Then once again a new argument stems, if a person has a mental illness that isn't their fault, is it still immoral for capital punishment?

 

 

 

Say a pedophile was born with Schizophrenia and it's the only reality they know. Or perhaps a murderer has some disorder and shot his cheating girlfriend in the wrong mind set. He is now overcome with shock and can't believe his actions.

 

Which is why a defendant can appeal to insanity and be interred in a mental institution rather than a prison.

 

 

 

However, there are people who try to abuse this system, which leads to spiraling costs and vast amounts of time wasted.

 

 

 

To be honest, I believe that criminals on death row should only be allowed up to two appeals, to expedite their disposal.

[Marco]

I don't understand the stuff about legal costs waiting on death row. Why would it need to take so long? Jury announces the guy guilty, sentencing, put him in a prison for I don't know, a year maybe, in case any big break is made in the case and it turns out he's innocent, then take them somewhere (similar to the back of a dog pound), pop pop, job's done, takes the same cost as housing any inmate for a year. Unless there's something I'm not understanding here.

 

 

 

Although I'm currently taking a law degree (england), my understanding on U.S law is pretty limited, so apologies if I'm wrong on anything.

 

 

 

As far as I'm aware, every person given the death penalty in America is also given an automatic appeal to the hearing which cannot be waived (they must go through the appeal, even if content with the sentance). Some states have created a second automatic appeal which the defendant must go through.

 

Apart from that, many defendants go through habeas corpus ad subjiciendum appeals, which basically allow them to question the legality of the hearings and the death sentance, as well as some defendants going through numerous appeals to the original case.

 

If you're wondering, the automatic appeals are in place, I think, as a comprimise between the legislators and human rights lobbyists.

 

 

 

Bear in mind that only the crème de la crème of lawyers would be involed in these kinds of cases, and with the best barristers & solicitors (or whatever they are in the States) comes the highest legal costs.

 

 

 

 

 

My personal opinion, similar to Ginger Warrior's, is that despite have a couple of years of study behind me, I still wouldn't feel confident enough to give a straight 'yes/no' answer.

 

I do however believe that death is still preferable to living out your years in prison, and I also detest the fact that we seem to spend so much money keeping convicted criminals in prison for years living a standard of life which some people would, ahaha, 'kill' for. #-o

 

 

 

Pun very much intended. :lol:

[darksonic45]

 

Even if they were executing an innocent man or woman, the rate of it has been 1 innocent person out of 10. I definitely don't like those odds but I'm sure most people would agree that if they had to kill 1 person to kill 9 bad people, they'd do it (and in some cases, even the innocent person would agree it would be better)

 

 

 

 

No. Taking an innocent life so you can continue to kill the guilty isn't EVER justified. To be fair, the rate is not 1 in 10. It is much much less, but wouldn't it make more sense to just eliminate the risk all together?

 

If the rate is much less, then it's a LOT better but if you don't agree let me try to play this scenario for you.

 

 

 

You wake up in a dark room and the T.V. comes on. You see a funny looking puppet say "I want to play a game. The game is simple, you kill yourself or you live. The thing is, if you live then there are 50 people in the other room who will die. The choice is yours."

 

 

 

Again, even with the risk I'm sure most would be willing to take their chances.

[Zierro]

The thing is, death is a real mystery. We can't even come close to putting a finger on how death might 'feel'. We don't have the knowledge to say death is better than a lifetime of solitary confinement. All we can go by is what we do know - that when someone dies, they no longer have the opportunity to effect society.

 

 

 

This is not true at all. They cannot affect society physically, but mentally people can influence generations.

 

 

 

Just look at MLKJR, JFK, Jesus Christ, ect...

 

 

 

Yeah, their actions may have caused a chain of events to happen and these events might have a continuous effect on society even while they are dead. My point was that after their death, they can't do anything to effect society from that point on. They no longer have the opportunity to effect society.

[darksonic45]

The thing is, death is a real mystery. We can't even come close to putting a finger on how death might 'feel'. We don't have the knowledge to say death is better than a lifetime of solitary confinement. All we can go by is what we do know - that when someone dies, they no longer have the opportunity to effect society.

 

 

 

This is not true at all. They cannot affect society physically, but mentally people can influence generations.

 

 

 

Just look at MLKJR, JFK, Jesus Christ, ect...

 

 

 

Yeah, their actions may have caused a chain of events to happen and these events might having a continuous effect on society even while they are dead. My point was that after their death, they can't do anything to effect society from that point on. They no longer have the opportunity to effect society.

 

Unless they come back as zombies *cough* Jesus *cough*

[lwilson100]

capital punishment is a must and i do not have a problem with an eye for an eye when it comes to murderers, i mean come on how can you talk about human rights when the person your defending from the death penalty has killed someone(hypocritical much).

[nickeley102]

Its not about punishment or suffering! If somebody harms you or your family, knowing that they are suffering will not make anything better, for anybody.

 

 

 

I am honestly appalled at tipit at the moment, what did your parents teach you? People are the product of their environment, you don't choose your parents (where 90% of your values come from) or your surroundings (the other 10%). If there is a problem with your upbringing and moral development as you grow, it is not your fault, it is the fault of society.

 

 

 

Such a problem with your development may lead to you committing a heinous crime, it is not the job of the justice and corrections systems to 'punish' such people, it is their job to make society as safe as possible, remembering that they didn't choose their values, and hence their actions.

 

 

 

When I hear about terrible people committing terrible crimes I don't feel angry, sure it makes me sad but the overwhelming emotion is sympathy for the criminal. Because I know that if that is how their behaviours are on the outside it must be a lot worse and messed up on the inside.

 

 

 

The argument should not be "how can we make this persons life as miserable as possible because they made my life miserable" it should be about what is best for society, and I can guarantee you forced suffering isn't the answer.

[kehllz]

The argument should not be "how can we make this persons life as miserable as possible because they made my life miserable" it should be about what is best for society, and I can guarantee you forced suffering isn't the answer.

 

 

 

When it comes to capital punishment, that's what the true goal is. But also forced suffering serves as a deterant for future crimes, so suffering, to a point, is also something that is, for lack of a better word, helpful.

 

 

 

Perks for society when someone is executed is not only the fact that the person can't harm anyone, but they also don't have to be supported by societies tax dollars. It costs $55-65 American near where I live. If someone commits a mass murder at 20 and lives until 50, they will need over $600,000 American to support them.

 

 

 

People who are the victims of crime also live in fear that the person who did the crime that affected them will some day be sprung out of prison on some technicality. A death sentence lets them live in peace.

[nickeley102]

The argument should not be "how can we make this persons life as miserable as possible because they made my life miserable" it should be about what is best for society, and I can guarantee you forced suffering isn't the answer.

 

 

 

When it comes to capital punishment, that's what the true goal is. But also forced suffering serves as a deterant for future crimes, so suffering, to a point, is also something that is, for lack of a better word, helpful.

 

 

 

Perks for society when someone is executed is not only the fact that the person can't harm anyone, but they also don't have to be supported by societies tax dollars. It costs $55-65 American near where I live. If someone commits a mass murder at 20 and lives until 50, they will need over $600,000 American to support them.

 

 

 

People who are the victims of crime also live in fear that the person who did the crime that affected them will some day be sprung out of prison on some technicality. A death sentence lets them live in peace.

 

Thank you, that is what the true goal is, yet i had to sift through 5 pages of

 

 

 

"kill him"

 

"no, he'll suffer more if we hang him upside down and he starves"

 

"yeah, ok, lets do that"

 

 

 

There is something wrong with he justice system because it costs so much and clearly doesnt work (most criminals reoffend). But i dont think capital punishment is the solution

[Dizzle229]

I agree about how a criminal should only be allowed a limited number of appeals. In the U.S. you have to move mountains to have someone executed. Scott Peterson is STILL alive.

[1_man_army]

 

 

 

Perks for society when someone is executed is not only the fact that the person can't harm anyone, but they also don't have to be supported by societies tax dollars. It costs $55-65 American near where I live. If someone commits a mass murder at 20 and lives until 50, they will need over $600,000 American to support them.

 

 

 

 

The costs involved in executing somebody far exceeds the cost of life imprisonment often by 2 or 3 times as much. I know that's counter-intuitive but when you consider all the checks, the cost of trials, the cost of appeals and all the other stages that have to be gone through for a death penalty to be carried out then you realise that the cost add up very quickly.

[Zierro]

I am honestly appalled at tipit at the moment, what did your parents teach you? People are the product of their environment, you don't choose your parents (where 90% of your values come from) or your surroundings (the other 10%). If there is a problem with your upbringing and moral development as you grow, it is not your fault, it is the fault of society.

 

 

 

Yes, people are a product of their environment. Those who seek redemption are a product of their environment too (the environment being a situation the psycho put you in by committing the crimes). If you want to say that there is a deep reason behind a criminal's actions I can say there is a deep reason behind revenge.

 

 

 

Such a problem with your development may lead to you committing a heinous crime, it is not the job of the justice and corrections systems to 'punish' such people, it is their job to make society as safe as possible, remembering that they didn't choose their values, and hence their actions.

 

 

 

Not all criminals can be "saved". Some go back to their horrible old ways no matter how much counseling you put them through.

 

 

 

And honestly, I don't get why you're bringing up the "we have no freewill" argument. It goes both ways.

 

 

 

When I hear about terrible people committing terrible crimes I don't feel angry, sure it makes me sad but the overwhelming emotion is sympathy for the criminal. Because I know that if that is how their behaviours are on the outside it must be a lot worse and messed up on the inside.

 

 

 

Everyone has problems. Not being able to cope with your problems is no excuse for going on killing rampages.

 

 

 

The argument should not be "how can we make this persons life as miserable as possible because they made my life miserable" it should be about what is best for society, and I can guarantee you forced suffering isn't the answer.

 

 

 

Someone's going to suffer. I'd rather it be the criminals than their potential victims.

[Zonorhc]

Its not about punishment or suffering! If somebody harms you or your family, knowing that they are suffering will not make anything better, for anybody.

 

 

 

I am honestly appalled at tipit at the moment, what did your parents teach you? People are the product of their environment, you don't choose your parents (where 90% of your values come from) or your surroundings (the other 10%). If there is a problem with your upbringing and moral development as you grow, it is not your fault, it is the fault of society.

 

 

 

Such a problem with your development may lead to you committing a heinous crime, it is not the job of the justice and corrections systems to 'punish' such people, it is their job to make society as safe as possible, remembering that they didn't choose their values, and hence their actions.

 

 

 

When I hear about terrible people committing terrible crimes I don't feel angry, sure it makes me sad but the overwhelming emotion is sympathy for the criminal. Because I know that if that is how their behaviours are on the outside it must be a lot worse and messed up on the inside.

 

 

 

The argument should not be "how can we make this persons life as miserable as possible because they made my life miserable" it should be about what is best for society, and I can guarantee you forced suffering isn't the answer.

 

It's a good thing that not everybody thinks like you, otherwise we'd be giving murderers and serial rapists a slap on the wrist and telling them to be good from now on instead of sticking them behind bars or otherwise removing them and the threat that they represent from society.

 

 

 

If you bothered to read what's been said, the more involved argument is that the death penalty is not there to punish or cause suffering as some form of revenge, but rather to excise a cancer from the social body and permanently ensure that it cannot cause further harm.

[nickeley102]

The argument should not be "how can we make this persons life as miserable as possible because they made my life miserable" it should be about what is best for society, and I can guarantee you forced suffering isn't the answer.

 

 

 

 

 

Someone's going to suffer. I'd rather it be the criminals than their potential victims

 

Someone doesnt have to suffer, that was the point of my post, suffering is a bad thing. People should not want to cause suffering full stop. It doesnt matter what they did to you.

 

Quote:

 

I am honestly appalled at tipit at the moment, what did your parents teach you? People are the product of their environment, you don't choose your parents (where 90% of your values come from) or your surroundings (the other 10%). If there is a problem with your upbringing and moral development as you grow, it is not your fault, it is the fault of society.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, people are a product of their environment. Those who seek redemption are a product of their environment too (the environment being a situation the psycho put you in by committing the crimes). If you want to say that there is a deep reason behind a criminal's actions I can say there is a deep reason behind revenge.

 

yes, there are reasons, but this doent make them justifiable, or even explainable

 

Quote:

 

Such a problem with your development may lead to you committing a heinous crime, it is not the job of the justice and corrections systems to 'punish' such people, it is their job to make society as safe as possible, remembering that they didn't choose their values, and hence their actions.

 

 

 

 

 

Not all criminals can be "saved". Some go back to their horrible old ways no matter how much counseling you put them through.

 

 

 

And honestly, I don't get why you're bringing up the "we have no freewill" argument. It goes both ways.

 

 

 

It does go both ways, but just because we don't have a better alternative to the justice system that is in place now, doesnt mean we can justify murder as the "next best option"

[Zierro]

Someone doesnt have to suffer, that was the point of my post, suffering is a bad thing. People should not want to cause suffering full stop. It doesnt matter what they did to you.

 

 

 

You are saying that preventing criminals from suffering is what's best for society. How is that true? When criminals have nothing to stop them, then they are going to keep making innocent people suffer. It's us or them. I say them.

 

 

 

yes, there are reasons, but this doent make them justifiable, or even explainable

 

 

 

Then you are contradicting yourself. If criminals are excused because "that's just how they are" then redeemers should be excused too because that's just how they are.

 

 

 

It does go both ways, but just because we don't have a better alternative to the justice system that is in place now, doesnt mean we can justify murder as the "next best option"

 

 

 

If it's not the next best option, then what is? Maybe we should be using that.

[Riku3220]

Someone doesnt have to suffer, that was the point of my post, suffering is a bad thing. People should not want to cause suffering full stop. It doesnt matter what they did to you.

 

It doesn't matter what they did to you? How exactly is that fair? They made you and others suffer because of killing or hurting a loved one but wait! It doesn't matter what they did! He couldn't control how he was raised!

 

 

 

yes, there are reasons, but this doent make them justifiable, or even explainable

 

You say there are reasons but you also say they aren't justifiable. Explain.

 

 

 

It does go both ways, but just because we don't have a better alternative to the justice system that is in place now, doesnt mean we can justify murder as the "next best option"

 

I'd like to see what you have in mind for criminals.

[nickeley102]

 

You are saying that preventing criminals from suffering is what's best for society. How is that true? When criminals have nothing to stop them, then they are going to keep making innocent people suffer. It's us or them. I say them.

 

 

 

I say removing them from society (jail) is better than killing them

 

 

 

Then you are contradicting yourself. If criminals are excused because "that's just how they are" then redeemers should be excused too because that's just how they are.

 

 

 

I am supporting the system as it is now, judges are chosen as wise people who make judgements of the severity of peoples crimes and their danger to society, whether they were the original offender or not

 

 

 

If it's not the next best option, then what is? Maybe we should be using that.

 

Its not murder, I say jail

[Riku3220]

I say removing them from society (jail) is better than killing them

 

Oh but living in a single room for the rest of their life counts as suffering in my book. Why should they have to suffer because they couldn't choose the way they grew up?

 

 

 

I am supporting the system as it is now, judges are chosen as wise people who make judgements of the severity of peoples crimes and their danger to society, whether they were the original offender or not

 

Believe it or not judges are just normal people. They are driven by love, hatred, and revenge as much as the next guy.

 

Its not murder, I say jail

 

Again. Suffering.

[kehllz]

Some people it's more humane to kill than throw in jail. Child rapists/murderers are pretty much dead when they walk into prison. The inmates want to tear them apart and (some of) the guards don't care enough to stop them. Would you rather someone be beat to death with a rolled up newspaper then be euthanized?

[nickeley102]

 

It doesn't matter what they did to you? How exactly is that fair? They made you and others suffer because of killing or hurting a loved one but wait! It doesn't matter what they did! He couldn't control how he was raised!

 

 

I'm saying you shouldn't have a desire for another person to suffer, in any circumstances. People need to stop comparing themselves to others

 

 

 

You know what, I'm sick of explaining this so Im going to let Mother Teresa fill you in.

 

 

 

 

 

People are often unreasonable, illogical and self centered;

 

Forgive them anyway.

 

 

 

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives;

 

Be kind anyway.

 

 

 

If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;

 

Succeed anyway.

 

 

 

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;

 

Be honest and frank anyway.

 

 

 

What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;

 

Build anyway.

 

 

 

If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;

 

Be happy anyway.

 

 

 

The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;

 

Do good anyway.

 

 

 

Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough;

 

Give the world the best you've got anyway.

 

 

 

You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and your God;

 

It was never between you and them anyway.

 

 

 

Moral of the story, its not about you and them, or what they did to you and what they deserve for it.

 

 

 

You are judges based on how you act, not on how anybody else acts

[nickeley102]

I say removing them from society (jail) is better than killing them

 

Oh but living in a single room for the rest of their life counts as suffering in my book. Why should they have to suffer because they couldn't choose the way they grew up?

 

 

 

I am supporting the system as it is now, judges are chosen as wise people who make judgements of the severity of peoples crimes and their danger to society, whether they were the original offender or not[/quote

 

Believe it or not judges are just normal people. They are driven by love, hatred, and revenge as much as the next guy.

 

 

 

Its not murder, I say jail

 

 

You are saying that preventing criminals from suffering is what's best for society. How is that true? When criminals have nothing to stop them, then they are going to keep making innocent people suffer. It's us or them. I say them.

 

 

 

I say removing them from society (jail) is better than killing them

 

 

 

Then you are contradicting yourself. If criminals are excused because "that's just how they are" then redeemers should be excused too because that's just how they are.

 

 

 

I am supporting the system as it is now, judges are chosen as wise people who make judgements of the severity of peoples crimes and their danger to society, whether they were the original offender or not

 

 

 

Its not murder, I say jail

 

Again. Suffering.

 

being put in jail would cause you to suffer, but have you seen the lives people live in jail? they arent the extreme suffering that people were endorsing a few pages ago.

 

 

 

the reason they suffer is because they are removed from society, which is the point

[Lenin64]

 

It doesn't matter what they did to you? How exactly is that fair? They made you and others suffer because of killing or hurting a loved one but wait! It doesn't matter what they did! He couldn't control how he was raised!

 

 

I'm saying you shouldn't have a desire for another person to suffer, in any circumstances. People need to stop comparing themselves to others

 

It's not about a desire to see people suffer; only the transient idiots have really posted that, and they haven't been back to the thread since. It's about safeguarding society from a threat. Sentences end, people escape, and with a life sentence in a maximum security prison that is more suffering than death. Regardless of how they were raised, what they grew up with, it's not only no excuse to do whatever they've done, they need not necessarily to be punished, but they do need to be removed for the protection of society. And the way to go about this with the least suffering is death. I'm sure you've heard the term "Mercy Killing".

 

 

 

You know what, I'm sick of explaining this so Im going to let Mother Teresa fill you in.

 

 

 

 

 

People are often unreasonable, illogical and self centered;

 

Forgive them anyway.

 

 

 

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives;

 

Be kind anyway.

 

 

 

If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;

 

Succeed anyway.

 

 

 

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;

 

Be honest and frank anyway.

 

 

 

What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;

 

Build anyway.

 

 

 

If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;

 

Be happy anyway.

 

 

 

The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;

 

Do good anyway.

 

 

 

Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough;

 

Give the world the best you've got anyway.

 

 

 

You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and your God;

 

It was never between you and them anyway.

 

 

 

Moral of the story, its not about you and them, or what they did to you and what they deserve for it.

 

 

 

You are judges based on how you act, not on how anybody else acts

 

The message here, it seems, is to not give any punishment and let them walk free. Your last sentence I don't understand the relation to the topic and require clarification.

[fastortoise]

Like my grandmother says, cut their balls off. No need for death penalties.

 

 

 

I know it sounds sick and controversial, but if you think about it for awhile, it could solve a lot of our problems.

[nickeley102]

It's not about a desire to see people suffer; only the transient idiots have really posted that, and they haven't been back to the thread since. It's about safeguarding society from a threat. Sentences end, people escape, and with a life sentence in a maximum security prison that is more suffering than death. Regardless of how they were raised, what they grew up with, it's not only no excuse to do whatever they've done, they need not necessarily to be punished, but they do need to be removed for the protection of society. And the way to go about this with the least suffering is death. I'm sure you've heard the term "Mercy Killing".

 

So offer euthanasia as an alternative

 

The message here, it seems, is to not give any punishment and let them walk free. Your last sentence I don't understand the relation to the topic and require clarification.

 

My interpretation is that you are judged based on how you act and they are judged based on how they act. Seeking revenge and wanting someone dead for your peace of mind is inhumane, hence, you are judged based on that. I bought up that poem because people were arguing that its not fair if you 'lost' more then the criminal (after they are sentenced), and it was right that they should lose more than you.

 

 

 

I say stop comparing your loss to their loss based on fairness

[Lenin64]

It's not about a desire to see people suffer; only the transient idiots have really posted that, and they haven't been back to the thread since. It's about safeguarding society from a threat. Sentences end, people escape, and with a life sentence in a maximum security prison that is more suffering than death. Regardless of how they were raised, what they grew up with, it's not only no excuse to do whatever they've done, they need not necessarily to be punished, but they do need to be removed for the protection of society. And the way to go about this with the least suffering is death. I'm sure you've heard the term "Mercy Killing".

 

So offer euthanasia as an alternative

 

Which is death.

 

The message here, it seems, is to not give any punishment and let them walk free. Your last sentence I don't understand the relation to the topic and require clarification.

 

My interpretation is that you are judged based on how you act and they are judged based on how they act. Seeking revenge and wanting someone dead for your peace of mind is inhumane, hence, you are judged based on that. I bought up that poem because people were arguing that its not fair if you 'lost' more then the criminal (after they are sentenced), and it was right that they should lose more than you.

 

 

 

I say stop comparing your lose to their lose based on fairness

 

That makes sense, I think. Fairness isn't what matters, it's that the criminal is being dealt with in the first place?