Melee, Ranging, and Two Slight Diversions

[Hegel]

Why so? Extreme ranging potions are the only special potions required for ranging, and Overload would be a waste (and potentially fatal). More so for dharoking, for obvious reasons.

[IonalK]

Great guide, thanks a lot.

 

[Icarium]

amazing guide, got me 99 range a lot cheaper than I'd been expecting!

one thing that I'm confused about however is your calculation at the end. you say : At lvl n for all n > 70, one can get up to 280(n/99)^1.1 xp/red chin, and 360K(n/99)^1.1 xp/hr.

This is using your results at 99 and adjusting them accordingly. Yet the power of 1.1 at the end adjusts any number input to above the original values for 99. Is this a mistake or am I simply doing the calculation wrong?

[Kersei]

Question - is it recommended to use void if range is lower level, say 76? If not, when should one start using void?

[Hegel]

amazing guide, got me 99 range a lot cheaper than I'd been expecting!

one thing that I'm confused about however is your calculation at the end. you say : At lvl n for all n > 70, one can get up to 280(n/99)^1.1 xp/red chin, and 360K(n/99)^1.1 xp/hr.

This is using your results at 99 and adjusting them accordingly. Yet the power of 1.1 at the end adjusts any number input to above the original values for 99. Is this a mistake or am I simply doing the calculation wrong?

The power applies to the term (n/99), and since n/99 is always less than or equal to 1, the raised term will never exceed 1. So if your level is 88, the first calculation gives 280(88/99)^1.1 = 246 xp/ red chin.

 

Question - is it recommended to use void if range is lower level, say 76? If not, when should one start using void?

It is indeed recommended.

[Shogundapker]

Wonderful guide. Eloquently written, not too wordy, yet it provides enough information to give a thorough understanding.

 

However, what struck me most was your analysis of grey chinchompas. Assuming we obtain 340k range exp (as per the title) per hour with red chinchompas, grey chinchompas would thus give us around 261,800 exp/hour. Grey chinchompas cost 33% less than red chinchompas. You said exp rates were 260 exp/red chinchompa vs. 205 exp/grey chinchompa. Going from the 340k range exp/hour, that would mean one throws about 1307 chinchompas per hour - rounding down to 1300 for the sake of convenience.

 

Prayer potion costs are constant per hour, so we can ignore those (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Therefore, one loses 980,200 gp/hour with red chinchompas, and 647,400 gp/hour with grey chinchompas (gaining 340,000 and 261,800 exp/hour respectively).

 

Going through a simple efficiency calculation we actually get a value of 466,757 at current prices (754gp per red chinchompa, and 498 gp per grey chinchompa).

 

Therefore, you'd have to value your time over ~467k in order to mathematically justify using red chinchompas over grey chinchompas.

 

However, therein lies the problem. I haven't bothered calculating (namely because I do not know exp rates of other methods) but the time value for using grey chinchompas over normal training methods is fairly close to that number.

 

What does this mean? Well, unfortunately, it means that grey chinchompas are only efficient to use for a *very* small number of people. I estimate that the time value cutoff will be around 400-450k for using grey chinchompas over say yaks with knives.

 

The amount of people that value their time between say 425k and 467k is extremely small. Therefore, sadly, grey chinchompas are almost never worth using.

 

Please feel free to check my math, the efficiency equation I used was...

 

V = [(P1)*(X2) - (P2)*(X1)] / (X2 - X1)

 

P1 = Profit of Method 1 (can be negative)

P2 = Profit of Method 2

 

X1 = Exp of Method 1

X2 = Exp of Method 2

 

You can trust the equation's accuracy, it hasn't failed me thus far. I also have a guide up on the runescape forums for a further discussion of efficiency (Quick find code: 17-18-133-59611058) if you are interested.

 

I'm new to these forums (as you can tell by my relatively few posts) but this was certainly a great read.

 

Is your clan chat open when you play Runescape? It'd be interesting to discuss such matters further.

 

Regards,

Shogun

[Hegel]

Wonderful guide. Eloquently written, not too wordy, yet it provides enough information to give a thorough understanding.

 

However, what struck me most was your analysis of grey chinchompas. Assuming we obtain 340k range exp (as per the title) per hour with red chinchompas, grey chinchompas would thus give us around 261,800 exp/hour. Grey chinchompas cost 33% less than red chinchompas. You said exp rates were 260 exp/red chinchompa vs. 205 exp/grey chinchompa. Going from the 340k range exp/hour, that would mean one throws about 1307 chinchompas per hour - rounding down to 1300 for the sake of convenience.

 

Prayer potion costs are constant per hour, so we can ignore those (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Therefore, one loses 980,200 gp/hour with red chinchompas, and 647,400 gp/hour with grey chinchompas (gaining 340,000 and 261,800 exp/hour respectively).

 

Going through a simple efficiency calculation we actually get a value of 466,757 at current prices (754gp per red chinchompa, and 498 gp per grey chinchompa).

 

Therefore, you'd have to value your time over ~467k in order to mathematically justify using red chinchompas over grey chinchompas.

 

However, therein lies the problem. I haven't bothered calculating (namely because I do not know exp rates of other methods) but the time value for using grey chinchompas over normal training methods is fairly close to that number.

 

What does this mean? Well, unfortunately, it means that grey chinchompas are only efficient to use for a *very* small number of people. I estimate that the time value cutoff will be around 400-450k for using grey chinchompas over say yaks with knives.

 

The amount of people that value their time between say 425k and 467k is extremely small. Therefore, sadly, grey chinchompas are almost never worth using.

 

Please feel free to check my math, the efficiency equation I used was...

 

V = [(P1)*(X2) - (P2)*(X1)] / (X2 - X1)

 

P1 = Profit of Method 1 (can be negative)

P2 = Profit of Method 2

 

X1 = Exp of Method 1

X2 = Exp of Method 2

 

You can trust the equation's accuracy, it hasn't failed me thus far. I also have a guide up on the runescape forums for a further discussion of efficiency (Quick find code: 17-18-133-59611058) if you are interested.

 

I'm new to these forums (as you can tell by my relatively few posts) but this was certainly a great read.

 

Is your clan chat open when you play Runescape? It'd be interesting to discuss such matters further.

 

Regards,

Shogun

Thanks for those comments. When the guide was written the ratio of cost of grey to cost of red chinchompas was around 1:2, and at present it is around 2:3, meaning that the cost advantages that greys have over reds is not as pronounced as before. Nonetheless if we neglect non-chinchompa methods of training, there exists an inequality that if fulfilled grey chinchompas are more efficient.

 

Your calculations may appear correct at first sight, but they make a very grave mathematical misjudgment. It is indeed true that potions costs are exactly the same regardless of which type of chinchompa is being used, but that does not mean that they can be neglected. If we think about this problem in terms of fixed (potion) cost and variable (chinchompa) cost, then we can only ignore the fixed cost if the variable cost is sufficiently larger than it. This is of course not the case currently.

 

If we factor in the fixed cost of about 200K/hr, then the total cost becomes (by your calculations) 1180K and 847K per hour for red and grey chinchompas respectively. I find that the easiest way of calculating efficiency is by calculating the xp/hr when including total costs (hereinafter referred to as weighted efficiency). Therefore, if we assume that one makes n gp per hour for some real number n, we obtain

 

Weighted Efficiency of Grey Chinchompas = 262K/(1+847K/n)

Weighted Efficiency of Red Chinchompas = 340K/(1+1180K/n)

 

Clearly if n is sufficiently large then red chinchompas are more efficient, otherwise the converse is true. In particular, with some manipulation, we find that if one can make in excess of about 275K gp/hr, then red chinchompas are more efficient. As far as I know just about everyone makes more than this, which means grey chinchompas are now never recommended over red chinchompas. In any case, even if someone does make less than this figure, then according to your figures one should train on yaks instead. Now I do not know much about alternative methods of training ranging, yaks included, but one need only compare the weighted efficiency of the methods with that of red chinchompas as listed above to determine which is more efficient.

 

It is important to note that the above calculations do make certain simplifications, namely that xp from familiars are ignored and that the recent extreme potions have not changed xp rates significantly. Nonetheless I think that these simplifications are minor, and they contribute to an uncertainty of no more than 10%.

 

As for my CC, I am always in some public CC other than my own and so it would not be convenient to discuss this matter there. There is no reason not to converse over this forum, though.

 

In light of the points you brought up and the calculations I have just undertaken, I will be editing my guide slightly.

[Shogundapker]

You define the ranging constant as 1.2997, but dismiss its derivation as unimportant.

 

However, if you have the time/capability, would you share your method of obtaining that?

 

And I now see what you mean by weighted efficiency - thank you. I've always assumed that constants can drop out but in lieu of your work I will tread with caution on my future calculations.

 

Sincerely,

Shogun

[Hegel]

You define the ranging constant as 1.2997, but dismiss its derivation as unimportant.

 

However, if you have the time/capability, would you share your method of obtaining that?

 

And I now see what you mean by weighted efficiency - thank you. I've always assumed that constants can drop out but in lieu of your work I will tread with caution on my future calculations.

 

Sincerely,

Shogun

The Ranging Constant is simply the ratio of the average xp from a Red Chinchompa to that from a Grey Chinchompa. So we obtain 260/200 = 1.3. The marginally more accurate 1.2977 is obtained from finding the ratio of the xp/hr of the two methods.

 

As its name implies, it is a constant regardless of one's ranging level, style, et cetera, because if one is poor at using Red Chinchompas, one will also be poor at using Grey Chinchompas, and in the same proportion.

 

Although the derivation is simple, I left it out because ultimately it is the formula that gives it its utility.

[Shogundapker]

Hello again,

 

My flow of question never ceases to end, so please bear with me. However, is the new prayer book a better alternative to the standard one for chinning? I have not gained access to the curses yet, but I have heard that the drain rate of deflect melee is similar to that of protect from melee.

 

I am still not sure if you receive exp for the damage deflected. If you do, it could add some potential exp/hour.

 

The only downside is the lack of a +15% prayer (leech range drains faster than hawk eye and offers the same boost). However, prayers like "Berserker" which extend the length of your range potions (by 15%) could potentially over-ride the single fault. Furthermore, if hp is a concern, soul split might be used to gain back hp at a rapid rate (although I'm not entirely sure how effective it would be due to the fact that it's another overhead prayer).

 

From what it looks like, staying on normal prayer is the better alternative. Hearing your thoughts, however, could prove to be beneficial.

 

Regards,

Shogun,

[darkman]

wow nice guide :o

[Hegel]

Hello again,

 

My flow of question never ceases to end, so please bear with me. However, is the new prayer book a better alternative to the standard one for chinning? I have not gained access to the curses yet, but I have heard that the drain rate of deflect melee is similar to that of protect from melee.

 

I am still not sure if you receive exp for the damage deflected. If you do, it could add some potential exp/hour.

 

The only downside is the lack of a +15% prayer (leech range drains faster than hawk eye and offers the same boost). However, prayers like "Berserker" which extend the length of your range potions (by 15%) could potentially over-ride the single fault. Furthermore, if hp is a concern, soul split might be used to gain back hp at a rapid rate (although I'm not entirely sure how effective it would be due to the fact that it's another overhead prayer).

 

From what it looks like, staying on normal prayer is the better alternative. Hearing your thoughts, however, could prove to be beneficial.

 

Regards,

Shogun,

I have yet to complete the quest, so I shall answer based on what I have read. The Protect and Deflect prayers drain at the same rate, with the only difference being that Deflect occasionally slightly damages the enemies. Since this does not give xp, Deflect is actually worse than Protect, since its effect is to decrease skeletons' apparent HP.

 

The ancient counterpart to Eagle Eye is Leech Ranged, which boosts your ranging ability by 10% instead of 15%. The fact that Leech Ranged reduces skeletons' ranging ability is obviously immaterial to our cause. I do not have information regarding the curse's drain rate, but unless it is extremely low - implausibly low, in fact - the extra bonus from Eagle Eye renders the latter superior. The curse Berserker seems hardly useful, and so I conclude perhaps cursorily that traditions prevail.

[ragamuffin77]

Brilliant guide and very helpful, just a small question, is the ardy cape (+6 pray) worth using over the skill cape?

[Hegel]

Brilliant guide and very helpful, just a small question, is the ardy cape (+6 pray) worth using over the skill cape?

It gives 2 more prayer bonus and has no drawbacks, so certainly yes.

[devilBart293]

i was think of chinning when i got 80 range but i only have 93 cb so would i go to ape toll or should i go to mummys i already have full range void?

 

and another question is are should i use grey chins to get 99 to save money ro just go red chins???

 

and how much gray chins would i need to get from 80 range to 99?

 

and how many pray pots to get from 80 range to 99?

 

and how many range pots to from 80 range to 99?

 

in other word this is a fantastic guide!!!!

[Our_Moon]

Quite possibly the best-written guide i've ever come across; i applaud you for that. I actually enjoyed reading it, even though it has absolutely no affect on my upcoming training ^^.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, and i realize it stretches beyond the parameters of this thread, but do you have any idea as to what the maximum Ranged experience with a cannon is, per hour? (I have heard perhaps Wallasalkis, but i have never tried them, myself...)

[Hegel]

i was think of chinning when i got 80 range but i only have 93 cb so would i go to ape toll or should i go to mummys i already have full range void?

 

and another question is are should i use grey chins to get 99 to save money ro just go red chins???

 

and how much gray chins would i need to get from 80 range to 99?

 

and how many pray pots to get from 80 range to 99?

 

and how many range pots to from 80 range to 99?

 

in other word this is a fantastic guide!!!!

Your combat level is immaterial: skeletons should remain the preferred choice for chinning.

 

With regard to the choice of chinchompas, you should read the following excerpt from the guide:

 

Red vs Grey Chinchompas

 

Grey chinchompas used to be extremely underrated, but this has changed with the times and they are now slightly overrated.. At level 99, one can get about 200 xp per grey as opposed to 260 xp per red. This means that red chinchompas give about 30% more xp than greys. Due to price fluctuations, the relative efficiency of one chinchompa over the other continuously changes. Therefore, when making the choice you should decide based on current prices. You can calculate the weighted efficiency (defined as the xp/hr you would get if factoring in the time taken to make the money to pay for the costs) via the following formula:

 

Relative Efficiency of Red Chinchompas = 1.2977*(n+total cost of greys/hr)/(n+total cost of reds/hr)

 

where n is one's earning capacity, measured in terms of gp/hr. The derivation of 1.2977 is unimportant and independent of one's ranging level, equipment, or ranging style. We shall call it the Ranging Constant.

 

Total cost is calculated by adding up chinchompa cost and potion cost. As a general estimate about 1300 chinchompas are used per hour, while the number of potions used depends of course on one's ranging and prayer levels.

 

If the relative efficiency of red chinchompas is greater than 1, then they should be used; otherwise, grey chinchompas should be used, assuming that there are no feasible non-chinchompa methods of training ranging.

With regard to the number of grey chinchompas required, let n be your ranging level and the amount of experience required to reach level n+1 from n. We define the function . Then, the required value is .

 

In order to determine the number of ranging and prayer potions required, it is necessary to know the amount of time you need to spend chinning. This is of course given by where . Applying the appropriate prayer formula depending on your level, equipment, et cetera then yields the number of prayer potions required. The number of ranged potions required is then simply the same value multiplied by the number of times you sip a dose per hour.

 

Quite possibly the best-written guide i've ever come across; i applaud you for that. I actually enjoyed reading it, even though it has absolutely no affect on my upcoming training ^^.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, and i realize it stretches beyond the parameters of this thread, but do you have any idea as to what the maximum Ranged experience with a cannon is, per hour? (I have heard perhaps Wallasalkis, but i have never tried them, myself...)

Before the advent of the chinchompas cannoning Dagannoths was the fastest way to train, and if memory serves it gives just over 200K xp/hr. Cannoning Wallasakis will give a lower xp gain rate although of course they would be recommended in view of their far superior drops. I would recommend chinning, though.

[Mischlings]

hey great guide but just curious as to how many prayer pots would be needed per hour (talking about the range guide)

 

 

 

thanks

 

Depends on your prayer level of course. Don't have the exact formula but I'm sure you could find one.

 

I've managed to derive a formula for how many prayer potion doses you use per hour:

 

doses/hr=(k+b/10)/(L/4+7)

 

k=seconds/point (found here)

b=prayer bonus

L=prayer level

 

Derived from these equations:

 

Points/dose=(L/4+7)

 

Points/hr=3600/(k+b/10)

 

When using a holy wrench, replace (L/4+7) with (L/4+8). When using multiple prayers, use the above formula for each prayer and add them together (can also be written as a single equation using multiple k values).

 

I also have a question that, while applicable here, goes well beyond just the scope of this guide: What is the best way to make sure that whatever combat familiar I have is always attacking? Most of the time that I use one, I find it standing around following me about half the time unless I force it to using the "attack" option. Calling it seems little help, but maybe I'm doing something wrong.

[Hegel]

Thanks, I'll see how I can incorporate that formula into the guide.

 

When chinning, getting your familiar to attack is not an issue as you are constantly being attacked. When fighting only 1 enemy at a time, though, it seems that there is a need to keep using the attack/call button. Alternatively, you can engage in combat another enemy before landing the final blow on the one you are on, so that you are at all times under attack.

[Shogundapker]

If you're after range experience, and range experience alone, chinning is recommended. Wallasalkis typically offer 110k exp/hour vs almost triple that from chinchompas.

 

Their advantages lie in charms and drops - I highly suggest you range alongside your cannon (armadyl armor works great for prayer and range attack bonus, unholy book/fury provide a great balance as well). Bring along your best BoB, and pick up all skeletal pieces and some grimy herbs.

 

If you are after summoning exp, then I'd advocate the use of wallasalkis. If not, don't bother. You don't get hp exp, and the drops aren't good enough to compensate for the huge loss in exp.

 

On a side note, and completely unrelated, a friend and I have been working on deriving the accuracy formula - that is, given W attack level with X bonus vs. Y defense level with Z defense bonus, what is the probability of hitting? We've come a long way after countless hours invested in testing, but anyone with a strong mathematical aptitude would prove to be extremely beneficial.

 

Would you mind if I either contacted you in-game or posted our current progress here, and had you verify and perhaps modify our current work? By no means are we complete - there is still lots of testing to be done, but the mathematical strength you've demonstrated will certainly come in handy.

 

~Shogun

[Hegel]

I would prefer you to message me over this forum. I wouldn't say I am an expert in mathematics (or in particular mathematical modelling) but I shall see what I can do.

[vettro]

Sweet guide. I will use it on my way to 99 ranging. Btw, like the song choice. I was surprised not to hear someone screaming their head off and having to turn the volume down lest my mother hear it. :-)

[Hegel]

I have made a few small changes, mainly to the suggested equipment. I will add tables for the number of Chinchompas required for each level when I have the time.

[Shogundapker]

Hello again,

 

I have been extremely busy lately, and I am deeply sorry for not being able to send you my accuracy calculations. My partner also got swamped with real life responsibilities, so testing grew to a virtual standstill. Is there a means of sending you a "private" message, or should I just post what I have discovered thus far here? I wish I had more to present, but school has prevented both of us from collaborating effectively. Furthermore, timezones are awkward for us, and things slowly fell apart. However, there is a lot to be learned from the little we do have, and I would greatly appreciate your help.

 

 

~Shogun

[Hegel]

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