How much would it take to fix the Combat Triangle

[sees_all1]

How is the combat triangle flawed?

What can Jagex do to fix it? Are the fixes a major reworking of all the skills, or a few stat tweaks? What's the bare minimum that Jagex can get away with to fix it?

 

If its not flawed, what can Jagex do in future updates to maintain the balance? What sets runescape apart from other games with combat that lack balance?

 

 

I'll post my thoughts later.

[LatinII]

Magic can farcast rangers without problems. Magic can hit from 10 squares max, while there are only 3 range weapons that can shoot from that range aswell: HC, Karil's Crossbow, Dark Bow and a Crystal Bow... so if you're using a crossbow you can't even hit a mage when you're frozen. What else... Meleers switching to dragonhide without penalties. And uhm, Magic having little KO potential. Magic is too expensive right now although the new staff combined with combat robes are minimizing the cost. Boss monsters have too high magic defence so you can't really mage them.

[foursideking]

mage/range has been plenty'o'flawed in f2p more than it has in p2p...and the lack of items more or less proves it. Mages/rangers are lucky to hit 16 in f2p pvp, whereas meleers can hit around the mid 20's. There'd be an easy solution to fix this, but it'd mean jagex making blood runes f2p, as well as the magic bows/rune arrows. That and make blue d'hide/all robes from f.o.g. f2p as well. Until that though, then melee will remain the dominant attack method in f2p...

[sees_all1]

I suppose this thread might do alot better if I don't offer the position that "The triangle is not flawed", and instead focused on what it would take to fix it.

I would prefer if this thread was not focused on F2P, as giving F2P rune arrows would not fix P2P's imbalances (or anything along that line of thought.)

 

I'd like about 2 or 3 more posts before I'll post my position... and it'll be a long post. :D

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

now im not saying anything in this post is THE way, im not even saying anything in this post is even a good idea, but its what i think would benifit the game best in terms of the combat triangle.

note that im am mostly talking about members, but a lot of it is to be done with f2p also.

 

mage. im going to mostly go for accuracy and keeping things balanced on all levels insted of going up and down like how crazly mage does.

first of all, all ranger armour should get a negetive slash, stab, and crush attack stat, nuthing huge like trying to mage in rune, just enough to weaken any meleer in ranger armour. slash would be lowerd most, and crush least.

 

secondly, all stafs are to be given an accuracy boost, eg, +10 magic attack should becoume about +12, +20 is to be made +30 ect.

 

battle staffs are to be given extra melee defence with less melee attack, mystic staffs are to be made logical and be given a large boost in magic accurecy stat (made to be about +17), with +5% damage, and some extra melee defence.

 

there are to be about 5 new types of mage armour, mostly for low/mid level players, and many of thouse new armours will have defence stats also. for exspample, mystic splitbark if one likes to fail at nameing.

 

all normal spell book binds are to be twice as long lasting.

 

and some more items that are like SoL, inclueding some mid level ones.

 

prayers will efect mage levels insted of just accuracy, just like with melee prayers.

 

void mage gloves and mage hood will be given a small boost is mage attack stats, enough for the set efect to be usefull. maybe a change to the set efect its self.

 

maybe mage could get more range, maybe.

 

max hits would be hightend slightly for mid level spells.

 

high level staffs/wands be given spec's, even if thay are not all that good.

 

probably, runes be counted groups (amount to be debated) opon death as oposed to each rune was just 300 gp depite haveing 1000 of them.

 

a large amount of boss monsters to be given lowerd mage defence, not a lot, just enough to say mage at the kbd (even if that profit is still rather bad) and/or a boss that is spsificly weak vs mage.

 

 

melee. trying to avoid 1/2/3 hit KO's basicly.

all metal armours, and most others, will have a slightly larger magic defence penalty. enough so that say someone with 99 mage in full dragon would still get hit ofen enough.

 

more max hit reduceing items such as SoL or spirit shields.

 

maybe (and i stress maybe) dragon claws to be made 55% spec useage.

 

 

range. well not much really.

rune arrows for f2p?

yew bows made f2p?

 

maybe ranger armour could have its mage defence lowerd a tiny bit.

 

poisoned ammo is to be poisoned in groups FAR bigger then 5 at a time

 

dragon crossbow?

 

 

well thats that done, let the people start saying what i have done is total fail :)

[Chayliel]

I have, for you, the absolutely fool-proof universal quick fix.

 

Like melee, have 2 skills determine range/magic accuracy and power. Let all attack bonuses be limited to weapon-based stats, with range/magic power-increasing worn items. Dhide gives the same magic protection as armor would give melee protection, and vice versa with magic armor, etc. Basically, all 3 combat types are the same, and your armor determines how often you're hit. There, no variation, just pure numbers.

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

I have, for you, the absolutely fool-proof universal quick fix.

 

Like melee, have 2 skills determine range/magic accuracy and power. Let all attack bonuses be limited to weapon-based stats, with range/magic power-increasing worn items. Dhide gives the same magic protection as armor would give melee protection, and vice versa with magic armor, etc. Basically, all 3 combat types are the same, and your armor determines how often you're hit. There, no variation, just pure numbers.

 

that would fix everything, but who wants the 3 combat classes be clones. combat in tersm of combat tryangle would be rather boring :(

[quelmotz]

I have, for you, the absolutely fool-proof universal quick fix.

 

Like melee, have 2 skills determine range/magic accuracy and power. Let all attack bonuses be limited to weapon-based stats, with range/magic power-increasing worn items. Dhide gives the same magic protection as armor would give melee protection, and vice versa with magic armor, etc. Basically, all 3 combat types are the same, and your armor determines how often you're hit. There, no variation, just pure numbers.

 

that would fix everything, but who wants the 3 combat classes be clones. combat in tersm of combat tryangle would be rather boring :(

 

Precisely. The optimum solution is the one that would eliminate all variety and fun.

 

That's why we its not easy to make a combat system where all combat styles are balanced YET it is not overly boring and dry.

[Chayliel]

Well, there's exactly where I've trouble understanding the general player-psyche behind balancing the combat triangle. When you add every color together, you get white. However, by removing every color, you get black. Only by having distinct variation can you attain a level of desirable balance. Otherwise, you're simply left with neutral colors: boring. The point being, you can't fully balance the combat triangle and keep the same style of combat everyone enjoys.

[sees_all1]

Well, there's exactly where I've trouble understanding the general player-psyche behind balancing the combat triangle. When you add every color together, you get white. However, by removing every color, you get black. Only by having distinct variation can you attain a level of desirable balance. Otherwise, you're simply left with neutral colors: boring. The point being, you can't fully balance the combat triangle and keep the same style of combat everyone enjoys.

I disagree. I believe it is possible to have a "balanced" combat triangle, in the fact that it's going back to its roots of being rock, paper, scissors. Rock Paper Scissors is a balanced game, yet in no way is everything equal. There is a definite rock beats scissors beats paper beats rock, but you don't get that with runescape.

 

 

Here's the areas that define classes:

-Maximum Hit

-Cost (up front, over time)

-Accuracy

-Speed

-Distance, range

-Weapon variation

-Armour variation

-Combat Levels

-Defense

 

I believe the combat triangle is fundamentally flawed. It gets back to the fact that there can be "tanks". Range and Magic only have one skill to train to increase their combat level, while Melee has two. Magic against itself has a bonus to defense (I have 86 magic, and in full rune people with 70 magic splash all the time).

This needs to be corrected. Either there are two components to determine accuracy and strength, or there should only be one component. Also, defense should either be universal, or there should be skills in each category to train with (Magical Resistance, Ranged Agility, Melee Agility).

 

As far as weapons and armor go, it doesn't make too much of a difference as long as each class has similar items at similar levels. Although, armor needs to be uniform in how it benefits/hurts between classes.

 

I believe that it will take a major rework of the combat triangle in order to make it balanced again.

[Cheefoo]

-Magic is too expensive for PvM.

-Magic has no real KO potential.

-Meleers have no negative bonuses for any armor.

 

Here are some idea of mine for some solutions.

-Give monsters weaknesses to magic (like ice strykeworms to fire spells) for PvM.

-New magic weapon/spell for KO potential.

-Give melee stat reductions for dragonhide (may affect PvM adversely).

-Give mages a spell to prevent armor changes for a brief period (so meleers can't simply put on dragonhide right away).

 

As for F2P...

 

-Melee can hit fast 25's or so.

-Rangers hit very fast 18's or so.

-Mages hit rather slow, inaccurate 16's.

 

Simple: give mages wave spells for higher damage, maybe a longer bind available to F2P, and maybe the armor change spell mentioned earlier

[Owned_Nex]

Fundamental Flaw:

 

Magic attack bonus comes mainly from armor.

Range attack bonus comes equally from weapon and armor.

Melee attack bonus comes mainly from weapon.

 

This gives melee an innate ability to switch around what they equip. It lets them counter all other combat types. For that reason, they are the most dominant in PvP. Melee armor also counters two forms of attack. Range one, and magic none. Melee also has a much higher max hit, as well as better special attacks. Damage done is more controllable, rather then random.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Is the triangle broken or is it players perception of what they think it is? Perhaps it might be broken to some extent if there were actually classes such as fighter, ranger and mage but there isn't. The three combat styles are just tools to use while in combat and its about using the appropriate one in the right situation. No player in this game is a true ranger or mage like they are in some other games. Just because a player chooses to train something like range doesn't mean they're a ranger, they just haven't trained the other skills. I'd say its down to player perception of these skills and how they choose to use and train them.

[sees_all1]

Is the triangle broken or is it players perception of what they think it is? Perhaps it might be broken to some extent if there were actually classes such as fighter, ranger and mage but there isn't. The three combat styles are just tools to use while in combat and its about using the appropriate one in the right situation. No player in this game is a true ranger or mage like they are in some other games. Just because a player chooses to train something like range doesn't mean they're a ranger, they just haven't trained the other skills. I'd say its down to player perception of these skills and how they choose to use and train them.

 

I submit that while players are not bound by classes (and should not be, as it was never intended to be bound by classes), there should definitely be three unique combat styles (as originally intended). The combat styles should be unique like rock, paper, scissors. Each one should have a distinct advantage against one, and a weakness against another.

 

That is to say, three people maxed in each of their respective classes should have exactly the same chance of beating their counterpart - i.e. 90% of the time the melee will beat a range, 90% of the time the range will beat a mage, and 90% of the time the mage will beat the melee.

I do not see this, especially when some styles gain advantage when hybriding, and others are disadvantaged.

 

That is why I say the triangle is flawed, and that is why I say it needs to be completely overhauled.

[howbadisbad]

I have a fix for range in dangerous pvp.

 

Void sets protect as one set. All the parts alch values combine to form essentially 1 item.

 

This would ultimately give range the power it needs to be able to combo without risking many hours of work.

 

This wouldn't buff melee because void would protect over a whip yet still be lost wielding a godsword. (yes people, melee does not need to become better)

 

For mage, Void would have to give it a damage bonus for mage void to be useful.

 

 

As any range pvper knows, range lacks the power to kill without a perfect veng setup. (or you are fighting an idiot without antifire pots)

Such an update to void would make range more powerful without overpowering low level pures (the reason jagex doesn't make range more powerful IMO) Since void requires 42 in all combat stats except prayer (22 req)

 

This seems like the most realistic solution to balance range in dangerous pvp to me, without putting in a quest that requires you to be a highish combat level to wield a new range weapon.

 

Respond please.

[Pluckey]

Solution:

 

 

 

 

Give F2P ranged yew bows/rune arrows. Why? Because Green D'hide requires 40 defence and 40 ranged. While the max melee armour for F2P is also rune. Note how F2P can cut yew? That's another coincidence.

 

 

 

And to fix F2P mage, Give a better bind and the wave spells.

[howbadisbad]

Solution:

 

 

 

 

Give F2P ranged yew bows/rune arrows. Why? Because Green D'hide requires 40 defence and 40 ranged. While the max melee armour for F2P is also rune. Note how F2P can cut yew? That's another coincidence.

 

 

 

And to fix F2P mage, Give a better bind and the wave spells.

 

P2p should be fixed before F2p seeing as F2p is a demo.

 

Paying customers come first.

[goodboy7557]

you guys are forgetting something very central:

 

there isn't just a single way combat system. if you were to give all classes equal amount of power against the other class, multi-way combat would become very unfair for the person being attacked.

 

lets take for example i'm attacked in f2p by 30 people. and i put on full rune.

 

i can usually eat my food till i'm dead for up to if not more than a minute. now think if there were to be more more powerful mages and rangers. they would easily hit through my melee prayer and armor, meaning i would stand little chance surviving for more than 3 seconds. If i wear lets say... melee armor and range armor and pray mage, then the hits would just rebalanced themselves and still make me die within 3 seconds.

 

in f2p combat the triangle pretty much exist. if i get attacked right now and i put on my normal gear and pray melee

melee hits max 15 aprox (+hybrids can bind, a bit)

mages hit around up 16 or 18? (+the important effect of bind)

ragers hit around 16

 

and p2p is a lot more complex but the effects would be the same.

 

 

the triangle doesn't just exist in single.

[howbadisbad]

you guys are forgetting something very central:

 

there isn't just a single way combat system. if you were to give all classes equal amount of power against the other class, multi-way combat would become very unfair for the person being attacked.

 

lets take for example i'm attacked in f2p by 30 people. and i put on full rune.

 

i can usually eat my food till i'm dead for up to if not more than a minute. now think if there were to be more more powerful mages and rangers. they would easily hit through my melee prayer and armor, meaning i would stand little chance surviving for more than 3 seconds. If i wear lets say... melee armor and range armor and pray mage, then the hits would just rebalanced themselves and still make me die within 3 seconds.

 

in f2p combat the triangle pretty much exist. if i get attacked right now and i put on my normal gear and pray melee

melee hits max 15 aprox (+hybrids can bind, a bit)

mages hit around up 16 or 18? (+the important effect of bind)

ragers hit around 16

 

and p2p is a lot more complex but the effects would be the same.

 

 

the triangle doesn't just exist in single.

 

 

I really don't get this post. Melee is overpowered and magic and range are underpowered. That is all there is to this debate.

And i hope we are not talking about f2p combat triangle because we all know demos get fixed last.

 

No comments about my void suggestion yet. I can't find any flaws in it myself.

[Aiel]

I really don't get this post. Melee is overpowered and magic and range are underpowered. That is all there is to this debate.

And i hope we are not talking about f2p combat triangle because we all know demos get fixed last.

 

No comments about my void suggestion yet. I can't find any flaws in it myself.

he's wrong saying that powering up range and mage would unbalance f2p, as he's assuming he'd be praying melee :shame: the fact that melee can hit 30s in f2p while range+mage max out at 18 is lost on him. Also, I'd think jagex would fix the combat triangle all at once. Your void suggestion is bad because, with the defense void offers, rangers/mage's in it would still get shredded by meleers. More damage doesn't help you much if you hit 3 0s on me, then spend the rest of the fight eating. In order to get halfway decent defense with void, you need a DFS or BSS, both of which would undoubtedly protect over the void set. The solution is not more OP weapons either, although some of though's for mage wouldn't hurt. Giving d'hide negative melee attack (similar to that which melee armor has on mage) would help, but would mess with PvM a lot. I hope the solution to this will be in some of jagex's high level non-pvp equipment later this year. Also, jagex said the Dragon crossbow would not be released until the combat triangle is rebalanced, which is slightly surprising seeing as range is one of the weaker corners, and should beat mages to begin with. The combat triangle does not need to be "balanced" in the sense that all classes have an equal sense of beating each other, the only corner that needs to be fixed is mage, which is currently MUCH weaker then melee. However, it does need to be balanced enough, that if I was ranging, and I got attacked by a meleer, I wouldn't just run as I'd have no chance of winning. It needs to be like 60% win 40% loss over the class that you are strong against, with of course some variation in skill levels, equipment, connection, and PKing skill.

[goodboy7557]

you guys are forgetting something very central:

 

there isn't just a single way combat system. if you were to give all classes equal amount of power against the other class, multi-way combat would become very unfair for the person being attacked.

 

lets take for example i'm attacked in f2p by 30 people. and i put on full rune.

 

i can usually eat my food till i'm dead for up to if not more than a minute. now think if there were to be more more powerful mages and rangers. they would easily hit through my melee prayer and armor, meaning i would stand little chance surviving for more than 3 seconds. If i wear lets say... melee armor and range armor and pray mage, then the hits would just rebalanced themselves and still make me die within 3 seconds.

 

in f2p combat the triangle pretty much exist. if i get attacked right now and i put on my normal gear and pray melee

melee hits max 15 aprox (+hybrids can bind, a bit)

mages hit around up 16 or 18? (+the important effect of bind)

ragers hit around 16

 

and p2p is a lot more complex but the effects would be the same.

 

 

the triangle doesn't just exist in single.

 

 

I really don't get this post. Melee is overpowered and magic and range are underpowered. That is all there is to this debate.

And i hope we are not talking about f2p combat triangle because we all know demos get fixed last.

 

my point isn't about mage or range being underpowered. my point is that making range or mage overpowering in f2p or p2p would unbalance multi-way combat too much.

[howbadisbad]

you guys are forgetting something very central:

 

there isn't just a single way combat system. if you were to give all classes equal amount of power against the other class, multi-way combat would become very unfair for the person being attacked.

 

lets take for example i'm attacked in f2p by 30 people. and i put on full rune.

 

i can usually eat my food till i'm dead for up to if not more than a minute. now think if there were to be more more powerful mages and rangers. they would easily hit through my melee prayer and armor, meaning i would stand little chance surviving for more than 3 seconds. If i wear lets say... melee armor and range armor and pray mage, then the hits would just rebalanced themselves and still make me die within 3 seconds.

 

in f2p combat the triangle pretty much exist. if i get attacked right now and i put on my normal gear and pray melee

melee hits max 15 aprox (+hybrids can bind, a bit)

mages hit around up 16 or 18? (+the important effect of bind)

ragers hit around 16

 

and p2p is a lot more complex but the effects would be the same.

 

 

the triangle doesn't just exist in single.

 

 

I really don't get this post. Melee is overpowered and magic and range are underpowered. That is all there is to this debate.

And i hope we are not talking about f2p combat triangle because we all know demos get fixed last.

 

my point isn't about mage or range being underpowered. my point is that making range or mage overpowering in f2p or p2p would unbalance multi-way combat too much.

 

Um... No.

 

Right now an ideal tanking setup would be to wear veracs or torags with a karils top and pray protect melee and your highest def prayer. (piety or turmoil)

 

If you boost range and mage there would be no change to this except maybe put on a karils bottom instead of torags legs depending on the number of mages and meleers

[IBeATank]

I'm not going to say that Melee is overpowered. The fact that I can tank while being attacked by a meleer or two, a mage and a ranger (albeit, all around level 75-80, tanking against four level 90's at level 94 is unheard of, at least for me) is proof that something is wrong here.

 

-What Goodboy is thinking of is that in multi-way a single person would be shredded by a team, that being a tank would no longer work. Unfortunately, that shouldn't happen, which gives rise to my point, balancing the combat triangle could possibly create another problem: Multi combat.

 

By balancing the combat triangle it would effectively make it possible for groups in pvp/bh worlds to waylay single people with no chance of their escape. The real problem with this lies in the fact that these areas are all over. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, I dont spend much time outside of the SoS and clan wars lol. Anyway, it would make pvp almost impossible for people without a group. And travel would be incredibly difficult as well, if you didnt want to teleport into a hotzone like varrock square, which is also multi-combat I think

 

-I'm not saying this is a reason to keep from balancing it out, but it does pose a serious threat to lone PKers.

[sausagewalls]

I'd say its never going to be completely balanced but melee vs. mage needs a bit of tweaking.

 

i think mage robes should give a higher defence bonus, or maybe a mystical power that weakens melee attacks.

 

the fact that a melee'er can ko and mager just as easy as a ranger isnt what the combat triangle is about :P

[LatinII]

Just wondering how you all think about the combat triangle after the release of items such as the arcane stream necklace and such.