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Lolicon


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#1
The Dark Lord
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I remember there being a discussion about the UK placing certain restrictions on anime and manga because there was a fear that the characters were drawn in a way that would encourage paedophilia (due to the female characters looking younger than what they were).

This was an interesting topic, so I wanted to share it with you. Are similar bans justified, and should people view anime as something that encourages child pornography, or should it be viewed separately? Should people be arrested/fined for possessing 'lolicon' anime, or do you believe that legislators are distorting the anime subculture and viewing it in the wrong way?

Anyway, if you're not too familiar with anime, here is a good example of what I'm talking about:

Posted Image

I would like to hear your opinions, as I feel like this would make a stellar moral debate.

Just a tip, make sure you keep this discussion mature and thoughtful, it is after all a very touchy subject. Also, as you may know, no explicit pictures, etc.

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#2
Iconic
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If it could turn into an urge for children than it needs to be reviewed, if not than I see no problem.

Edit: I don't understand the reason, it almost certiantly could turn into an urge for children or encourage than yes. Also are we talking about pornography or just drawings because I think a lot of shows on the telly have children under 5. If its child pornography than it also certaintly should be banned but if its just a character than not so much.
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#3
OldJoe
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I don't read this manga stuff, but would you mind telling me how explicit drawings and talk-bubbles are?
A picture like the posted, have no reaction over it. Are there cases where drawings are a bit more 'obscene'?

J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff movies
Je trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vie
Je ne me reconnais plus dans les gens
Je suis juste un cas désespérant
Et comme personne ne viendra me réclamer
Je terminerai comme un objet retrouvé


#4
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Imo it should be legal, seeing the point of outlawing CP is to protect children, while nobody is harmed in the making of this.

#5
The Dark Lord
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I don't read this manga stuff, but would you mind telling me how explicit drawings and talk-bubbles are?
A picture like the posted, have no reaction over it. Are there cases where drawings are a bit more 'obscene'?


Certainly, but most of the time it is rather innocent, IMHO. It's certainly strange from an outsider's point-of-view (as in all the over-exaggerated cuteness and such), but then again most of modern Japanese culture is strange [to Westerners] anyway.

I'm pretty neutral as far as the more 'hentai' aspect goes, but it's not something I would be interested in, though I don't really believe that it should be punishable. Typically child pornography is bad because you're taking advantage of children, but this is not the case with a drawing that is subjective and may only appear to depict a child when it really doesn't (as in the way it's drawn). However, one could argue that it encourages child molesters when they see the drawing and want to sexually abuse real children. In that case, it could be a major problem.
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#6
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It should be legal, as it's a work of fantasy that depicts no real persons. Saying that it encourages child pornography is the same than saying that playing violent first-person-shooters encourages real life killing. If someone were to develop some kind of obsession about children because of watching lolicon material, then I believe the problem is not in lolicon itself, but in the person who develops the obsession and doesn't know how to draw the line between fantasy and reality.
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#7
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Lolicon, as I understand it, is not necessarily about girls who are underage but rather girls who look like they're underage. There's a big difference there. It feeds the male fantasy of innocence, and possibly corrupting that innocence, but doesn't turn a person into a pedophile. Unless a person is already attracted to underage girls, looking at pictures of what looks like underage girls isn't going to turn them into a child molester. Even if you are attracted to underage girls, it's not going to make you go out and molest children unless that's something you were already planning to do.

Pictures/movies/music don't make people do anything, we all make our own choices.

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So basically lolicon is people whacking off to neo-underage girls?

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#9
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I don't read this manga stuff, but would you mind telling me how explicit drawings and talk-bubbles are?
A picture like the posted, have no reaction over it. Are there cases where drawings are a bit more 'obscene'?


Certainly, but most of the time it is rather innocent, IMHO. It's certainly strange from an outsider's point-of-view (as in all the over-exaggerated cuteness and such), but then again most of modern Japanese culture is strange [to Westerners] anyway.

I'm pretty neutral as far as the more 'hentai' aspect goes, but it's not something I would be interested in, though I don't really believe that it should be punishable. Typically child pornography is bad because you're taking advantage of children, but this is not the case with a drawing that is subjective and may only appear to depict a child when it really doesn't (as in the way it's drawn). However, one could argue that it encourages child molesters when they see the drawing and want to sexually abuse real children. In that case, it could be a major problem.

Apart from have trained Aikido since i was 10, yes, my Japanese knowledge is limited. Obviously i don't know anything about this subject, which i guess renders my post pretty useless to start with.
Anyways, yes i know it's just drawn pictures and not real. If it's just pictures depicting young girls (not so much guys i guess) "looking cute", no i don't have any view one way or the other. If it steps into the area of sex, in some way or other, depicting under-age.... Then i would have a problem with it. If i were a dad for example, and found my son reading such stuff, i would throw it away. Basically my reason is that it depicts an under-age person in a manner which could possibly turn some on.
I read some about it on wiki, and no, i wouldn't be ok with it if it goes to such areas, i do not find it appropriate to combine such age and acts.

I imagine i might sound similar to some who wants to band GTA 4 and such games, which obviously has the same discussion about a different topic. I should point out before anyone starts reading in to this, that yes, a no brainer, you would wish for such sick child porn viewers to watch such manga instead.
Would i brand this "child porn"? No. But i would find it disturbing seeing a grown teacher and a 12 year old girl going on an adventure, even tho it's fantasy.
If it consists of a person with the "right age" but only depicting a under age, then i would not have such a biggie with it.

I don't know how to really phrase myself, but i hope i've made my point a bit half clear at least.

J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff movies
Je trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vie
Je ne me reconnais plus dans les gens
Je suis juste un cas désespérant
Et comme personne ne viendra me réclamer
Je terminerai comme un objet retrouvé


#10
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Better this than actual children, if you're talking about the pornographic aspect of it. If it's porn, give it the same restrictions as any other adult content. Not all cartoons are for kids, right? :razz:

If it's not pornographic at all it's really no different than any other cartoon.

#11
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Lolicon, as I understand it, is not necessarily about girls who are underage but rather girls who look like they're underage. There's a big difference there. It feeds the male fantasy of innocence, and possibly corrupting that innocence, but doesn't turn a person into a pedophile. Unless a person is already attracted to underage girls, looking at pictures of what looks like underage girls isn't going to turn them into a child molester. Even if you are attracted to underage girls, it's not going to make you go out and molest children unless that's something you were already planning to do.

Pictures/movies/music don't make people do anything, we all make our own choices.



Yes, but lolicon imitates neoteny to attract its viewers. which is almost the same thing as being sexually attracted to younger children, just not as genuine.

You may see graphic pictures of girls without developed breasts, but then you may also see ADULT characteristics like bigger height. So this
doesn't entirely compromise child pornography.

#12
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Yes, but lolicon imitates neoteny to attract its viewers. which is almost the same thing as being sexually attracted to younger children, just not as genuine.

If someone's attracted to young children, they probably aren't going to change any time soon, so if they can get the same thing out of a cartoon as an actual kid, the option that doesn't hurt anyone is the lesser of two evils.

#13
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No children are harmed or abused, so it should be legal. If anything, it might actually be a good thing, as an alternative to actual pedophilia.
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#14
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Q. What is wrong with being sexually attracted to children? A. Nothing. I've wanted to kill people before, but I've resisted that urge and as a result I'm not a murderer. People can polish the bishop to whatever stick figures they want to, save the punishments for when they actually commit a crime.

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#15
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Weirds me out, but if that's the closest they're getting to children than I'm indifferent to it.

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#16
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Well, I guess it should be legal if its not anything going on the boundaries of anything sexual.

But I just dont see the appeal of...15 year old girls looking and acting like 7 year olds...? Is this how the logic works...?
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#17
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@halo, even if it is sexual, it should be legal. When deciding if something should be legal or not, just ask "is this hurting anyone?" If not, then it should be legal, and I don't believe this is hurting anyone. The only argument against this is the same argument that says video games turn normal people into homicidal maniacs.
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#18
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True, but then it would be Child Pornography, what OP is talking about.
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#19
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Pedophilia is a mental disorder, and no evidence exists to suggest virtual materials would encourage violence against children. Rather then rehashing the entire argument myself, below is an excerpt from the court decision in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition. It explains why exactly virtual child porn should be legal far more elegantly then I can.

Thus, the Child Protection Act prohibited speech for a different reason than anti-child pornography laws. Laws prohibiting the distribution and possession of child pornography ban speech because of the manner in which it is produced, regardless of its serious literary or artistic value. But speech prohibited by the Child Protection Act "records no crime and creates no victims by its production." Child pornography is not necessarily without value, but it is illegal because of the harm that making and distributing it necessarily inflicts upon children. Ferber expressly allowed virtual child pornography as an alternative that could preserve whatever literary value child pornography might arguably have while at the same time mitigating the harm caused by making it. Further, the First Amendment draws a distinction between words and deeds, and does not tolerate banning of mere words simply because those words could lead to bad deeds. Although the Child Protection Act's objective was to prohibit illegal conduct, it went well beyond that goal by restricting speech available to law-abiding adults. And if the goal was to eliminate the market for all child pornography, the Court ruled that the government could not accomplish that goal by eliminating lawful speech in the process. The burden should not, however, fall on the speaker to prove that his speech is lawful, instead of on the government to prove that it is not. Furthermore, such an affirmative defense is "incomplete on its own terms" because it "allows persons to be convicted in some instances where they can prove children were not exploited in the production."



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Ignore this post. And I didn't even post the image itself.


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