Extreme potions: cheaper than normal ones?

[Kirbyallstar]

Disclaimer: This only applies to ranging potions because I haven't tried it with any others. This also only applies if you repot at the same point as you would repot with a normal potion. This has nothing to do with bossing because you repot there more constantly. All numbers calculated are rounded down.

 

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I don't think this has discussion value, but I'd like to just share some information I found. Basically I just want to show that using ext. range pots is cheaper to train with than reg. range pots. At 99 range, the boosts will be 112, and 122. Most people repot their reg. range pots at about the halfway point, at 105/99. If you apply that same number, repotting at 105, then ext. range is cheaper.

 

By repotting at 105, reg. range will last 7 lvls, or 7 mins. Ext. range will last 17 lvls, or 17 mins. That means you will use an ext. range dose every 2.4 reg. range (17 divided by 7). For ext. range to be worth it, it must cost less than, or equal to 2.4 reg. range pots.

 

Current prices of yesterday, 9/19/10 (GE updated 5 mins ago lolz):

Ext. range = (price of range (3) + [5*grenwalls]

4422+[5*1444]=11,642 (3 doses of ext range)

 

Reg. range= 4422 (3 doses)

1474 (1 dose)

 

1 dose of ext range must be less than 2.4 doses of reg. range

ext range 1 dose = 11642 divided by 3

ext range 1 dose = 3880 gp

 

2.4 doses of reg range = 1474 times 2.4

2.4 doses of reg range = 3537 gp

 

By that logic, an ext range dose is only ~300 gp more expensive than regular range doses. That is 300 gp every 17 mins, which is about 1k an hour. Surely everyone can afford an extra 1k an hour. However, this is negated by the huge range bonus you receive by using ext. range, which leads to more kills per hour which equals more gp per hour.

 

Thus, if you apply the same concept at potting at 105/99, extreme range pots will ultimately be cheaper to train with than regular range pots. This can be applied to slayer or camping, but not necessarily bossing.

 

End notes: Of course, this math is influenced by current GE prices. Just because yesterday an ext. range dose was more expensive than 2.4 range doses, it doesn't mean you should look at it as extremes being more expensive. Don't forget the extra range levels will bring in more kills, which is more gp per hour. Also based on GE prices, extremes *could* be cheaper than normals in face value.

 

Agree? Disagree? When you pot, what's that point where you repot?

[Zaaps1]

Actually, most people tend to repot at 5 minutes. That's typically the convention, although some will repot at 10 minutes, I don't know of a lot of people who repot at halfway.

[xpx]

Anyone with the level to use any of the extremes(well, not magic because of how it works, but all the others) not using them is mad, no real discussion value here, as your calculations completely ignore the added effectiveness the extreme pots give. Realistically, if you've got the level and value herblore xp, overloads are always the best potions to use.

[Kirbyallstar]

Actually, most people tend to repot at 5 minutes. That's typically the convention, although some will repot at 10 minutes, I don't know of a lot of people who repot at halfway.

 

Well if you were to repot after 5 mins, that actually makes ext < reg range. By repotting after 5 mins or 5 levels, you would repot at 107/99. That gives you 5 mins per reg. range dose and 15 mins per ext. range. That means 1 ext range dose = 3 reg. range dose. 3880 < 4422, which means even face value extreme range is cheaper than normal range pots.

 

Anyone with the level to use any of the extremes(well, not magic because of how it works, but all the others) not using them is mad, no real discussion value here, as your calculations completely ignore the added effectiveness the extreme pots give. Realistically, if you've got the level and value herblore xp, overloads are always the best potions to use.

 

If I could redirect you to this:

http://forum.tip.it/topic/277382-creation-of-the-tidbits-forum/page__pid__4512838#entry4512838

 

I know my topic has no discussion value at all, but there's no where else to post this information. At least I'm trying to get other people to respond. And how am I ignoring the effectiveness when I'm showing how effective they are?

[Obtaurian]

You really shouldn't be repotting at 105 for both normal ranging potions AND extremes. Like Zaaps said, it should be 5 to 10 minutes.

[xpx]

Well if you want to prove anything then really, normal range potions can be used with level 1 herblore, but extremes need 92 herbore, thus extremes are much, much worse. Your test it totally out of context as it ignores the requirements.

 

Also you are not showing their effectiveness in terms of 122 range being tons better than 112 range, thus allowing for more kills and more xp and money made.

[Kirbyallstar]

You really shouldn't be repotting at 105 for both normal ranging potions AND extremes. Like Zaaps said, it should be 5 to 10 minutes.

 

It might just be me, but I do not see people using extreme range for general training purpose. They broke their bank getting extremes, so they mostly use extremes solely for bossing to make that money back. They think that since training herblore is so expensive, extremes must be equally expensive and would choose normal potions to train with.

Also, like I stated in the disclaimer, "This also only applies if you repot at the same point as you would repot with a normal potion." That is the only point I'm trying to prove.

 

 

Well if you want to prove anything then really, normal range potions can be used with level 1 herblore, but extremes need 92 herbore, thus extremes are much, much worse. Your test it totally out of context as it ignores the requirements.

 

People with 92 herblore can still train; just because you have a high herblore level doesn't mean you are automatically maxed. Training can be applied to slayer or making money by camping a certain monster like abby demons or metal drags.

 

 

Also you are not showing their effectiveness in terms of 122 range being tons better than 112 range, thus allowing for more kills and more xp and money made.

 

Please read the whole post before posting. Near the end I wrote:

"However, this is negated by the huge range bonus you receive by using ext. range, which leads to more kills per hour which equals more gp per hour."

and

"Don't forget the extra range levels will bring in more kills, which is more gp per hour."

 

Obviously a bigger level boost is better than a smaller one.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Well if you want to prove anything then really, normal range potions can be used with level 1 herblore, but extremes need 92 herbore, thus extremes are much, much worse. Your test it totally out of context as it ignores the requirements.

 

Also you are not showing their effectiveness in terms of 122 range being tons better than 112 range, thus allowing for more kills and more xp and money made.

He did prove something though.

He proved that extreme potions are in fact more cost effective by setting a lower bound of their usefulness.

It might not be a very useful proof, but it is a proof. It's a nice rule of thumb that's probably better for the help and advice section.

 

If you're asking him to prove it while factoring in time/income, then you're asking for a mathematical proof that is significantly less trivial.

Then you need to factor in how often you drink the potion, as that would be a function of income.

Which would in turn affect how many potions you drink per hour, etc.

In the end it's a complete pain in the ass calculation that is wholly unnecessary due to simpler proof he has already provided.

 

Would you go through the trouble of calculating something like that xpx? I sure wouldn't. It's just unreasonable.

[xpx]

How ever much you want to believe it, i haven't heard of anyone who can use extremes not use them for training- realistically extremes are meant for training while overloads are usually used for bossing. Anyone bossing with extremes isn't even a top end player these days and will likely get crashed. This topic is as bad and obvious as the whip>blablabla thread where the guy finds out something everyone already knew, only that the information had expired while the guy made the observations(overloads are the best potions for near everything nowadays).

 

Morionic, i wouldn't spend my time calculation something completely irrelevant. I understand if he did the calculations to show that getting extremes and using them is more efficient than using normal range potions, but right not, he just proved that if you have 92, you should use BETTER potions because they are BETTER, which is obvious.

[Squisher_33]

this is why ovl is cheaper than extremes at ffa corp, since u gotta repot at 124, meaning 5 xstr and 5 xatt for the price of 1 ovl

[Golvellius]

Good luck fighting the efficiency trolls.

They can't understand the concept that not potting every minute and not using rigor prayer saves money.

10% extra kills per hour means diddly when you fight such high value dropping classic slayers monsters like fire giants, hellhounds, nechrhyeals, gargoyls, black demons, and so on.

You be lucky if you pick up 100k worth of junk in an hour off them.

 

I personally wait to about 106-108 to repot depending on my attention level.

I use rigor for the novelty but once I'm bored with it then I'll save 200k an hour in prayer pots for that less than special 5 extra damage a hit.

[Obtaurian]

You really shouldn't be repotting at 105 for both normal ranging potions AND extremes. Like Zaaps said, it should be 5 to 10 minutes.

 

It might just be me, but I do not see people using extreme range for general training purpose. They broke their bank getting extremes, so they mostly use extremes solely for bossing to make that money back. They think that since training herblore is so expensive, extremes must be equally expensive and would choose normal potions to train with.

Also, like I stated in the disclaimer, "This also only applies if you repot at the same point as you would repot with a normal potion." That is the only point I'm trying to prove.

 

What? I don't know a single person with extremes who doesn't use them (or overloads) in all non-PVP situations.

[Kirbyallstar]

How ever much you want to believe it, i haven't heard of anyone who can use extremes not use them for training- realistically extremes are meant for training while overloads are usually used for bossing. Anyone bossing with extremes isn't even a top end player these days and will likely get crashed. This topic is as bad and obvious as the whip>blablabla thread where the guy finds out something everyone already knew, only that the information had expired while the guy made the observations(overloads are the best potions for near everything nowadays).

 

Morionic, i wouldn't spend my time calculation something completely irrelevant. I understand if he did the calculations to show that getting extremes and using them is more efficient than using normal range potions, but right not, he just proved that if you have 92, you should use BETTER potions because they are BETTER, which is obvious.

 

Obviously better potions are better, but that's not what I'm proving. I'm proving that the better potions are also CHEAPER. Not many people stop to think to use extremes when training; they go for the cheaper, easily accessible option. They think that the cost of making extremes outweighs the benefits it provides by having 10 extra range levels. I haven't seen a help thread asking what potion, ext or regular, to use when training because they think regulars are cheaper.

 

What? I don't know a single person with extremes who doesn't use them (or overloads) in all non-PVP situations.

 

Nvm, I guess you're right. That's why I said, "maybe it's just me." Nevertheless, I'm showing that extremes are also cheaper in addition to being obviously stronger.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

10% extra kills per hour means diddly when you fight such high value dropping classic slayers monsters like fire giants, hellhounds, nechrhyeals, gargoyls, black demons, and so on.

You be lucky if you pick up 100k worth of junk in an hour off them.

you're not supposed to base the value of your time on the value of the activity you're doing.

You're supposed to it on what other stuff you could be doing with your time.

Hence this concept is called opportunity cost

Anyways I hope you don't base your overall opinion of efficiency on a few trolls.

 

Please, I've seen plenty of slayers not using extremes. In your situation you don't see it because you and all of your friends are maxed with access to your infinite cash piles. I've seen slayers with 85-90 herb not slaying with extremes. I'm speaking for the general population, and not the best of the best. The general population is my audience, not the "elite".

 

Morionic, i wouldn't spend my time calculation something completely irrelevant. I understand if he did the calculations to show that getting extremes and using them is more efficient than using normal range potions, but right not, he just proved that if you have 92, you should use BETTER potions because they are BETTER, which is obvious.

It's obvious to you, but knowing you, you've probably done more efficiency calculates so far then over a hundred average scapers.

It's not exactly trivial to everybody.

[Golvellius]

10% extra kills per hour means diddly when you fight such high value dropping classic slayers monsters like fire giants, hellhounds, nechrhyeals, gargoyls, black demons, and so on.

You be lucky if you pick up 100k worth of junk in an hour off them.

you're not supposed to base the value of your time on the value of the activity you're doing.

You're supposed to it on what other stuff you could be doing with your time.

Hence this concept is called opportunity cost

Anyways I hope you don't base your overall opinion of efficiency on a few trolls.

 

Runescape would be a dismal freaking game if I thought that way.

I'm not going to camp all day at frost dragons or godwars or tormented demons just to get something done.

But for an efficiency troll enamored with opportunity cost its goes something like this:

"Kill fire giants on slayer task with range.... use chaotic cross-bow use dragon bolts(e), use cannon, use overloads, bring steel titan/spam scrolls, pray rigour... but first go camp at frost dragons for an hour to cover the costs of that plus the costs incurred while at the dragons when you use chaotic xbow, diamond bolts(e), cannon, rigour... I am efficient huraah task done in 15 minutes l2rs noobs."

[Obtaurian]

10% extra kills per hour means diddly when you fight such high value dropping classic slayers monsters like fire giants, hellhounds, nechrhyeals, gargoyls, black demons, and so on.

You be lucky if you pick up 100k worth of junk in an hour off them.

you're not supposed to base the value of your time on the value of the activity you're doing.

You're supposed to it on what other stuff you could be doing with your time.

Hence this concept is called opportunity cost

Anyways I hope you don't base your overall opinion of efficiency on a few trolls.

 

Runescape would be a dismal freaking game if I thought that way.

I'm not going to camp all day at frost dragons or godwars or tormented demons just to get something done.

But for an efficiency troll enamored with opportunity cost its goes something like this:

"Kill fire giants on slayer task with range.... use chaotic cross-bow use dragon bolts(e), use cannon, use overloads, bring steel titan/spam scrolls, pray rigour... but first go camp at frost dragons for an hour to cover the costs of that plus the costs incurred while at the dragons when you use chaotic xbow, diamond bolts(e), cannon, rigour... I am efficient huraah task done in 15 minutes l2rs noobs."

 

You don't have to spend any time making money to cover the costs of training slayer, FYI. Using a cannon, turmoil, overloads, and a steel titan, all you need to do is a couple farm runs a day + MTK to cover the expenses, and that's if you DON'T merch.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Runescape would be a dismal freaking game if I thought that way.

I'm not going to camp all day at frost dragons or godwars or tormented demons just to get something done.

But for an efficiency troll enamored with opportunity cost its goes something like this:

"Kill fire giants on slayer task with range.... use chaotic cross-bow use dragon bolts(e), use cannon, use overloads, bring steel titan/spam scrolls, pray rigour... but first go camp at frost dragons for an hour to cover the costs of that plus the costs incurred while at the dragons when you use chaotic xbow, diamond bolts(e), cannon, rigour... I am efficient huraah task done in 15 minutes l2rs noobs."

yeah, nobody told u to do that, ur just stereotyping now :P

The point of opportunity cost isn't to tell you to do the most efficient method of training all the time.

 

The term opportunity cost exists to emphasize the fact that the value of your time one day, might be different from the value of your time another day.

 

Lets say you just finished an REALLY hard exam at school. And your brain is totally wasted.

So while, normally you can kick tormented demon rear for epic cash.

You're not in a state to kick tormented demon rear, therefore you don't pay the opportunity cost because you are too tired.

 

Maybe you're in a really good mood for training slayer.

if you don't train slayer, you pay the opportunity cost of training slayer while you're actually in the mood for training slayer.

Which is undeniably more efficient than training slayer while not being in the mood.

 

Opportunity cost is not a constant number.

[RangingRoy]

Take into consideration the cost of getting the Herb level to make the pots, then we can talk about it.

[Leyenda]

For an efficiency troll enamored with opportunity cost its goes something like this:

"Kill fire giants on slayer task with range.... use chaotic cross-bow use dragon bolts(e), use cannon, use overloads, bring steel titan/spam scrolls, pray rigour... but first go camp at frost dragons for an hour to cover the costs of that plus the costs incurred while at the dragons when you use chaotic xbow, diamond bolts(e), cannon, rigour... I am efficient huraah task done in 15 minutes l2rs noobs."

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbup:

[Golvellius]

10% extra kills per hour means diddly when you fight such high value dropping classic slayers monsters like fire giants, hellhounds, nechrhyeals, gargoyls, black demons, and so on.

You be lucky if you pick up 100k worth of junk in an hour off them.

you're not supposed to base the value of your time on the value of the activity you're doing.

You're supposed to it on what other stuff you could be doing with your time.

Hence this concept is called opportunity cost

Anyways I hope you don't base your overall opinion of efficiency on a few trolls.

 

Runescape would be a dismal freaking game if I thought that way.

I'm not going to camp all day at frost dragons or godwars or tormented demons just to get something done.

But for an efficiency troll enamored with opportunity cost its goes something like this:

"Kill fire giants on slayer task with range.... use chaotic cross-bow use dragon bolts(e), use cannon, use overloads, bring steel titan/spam scrolls, pray rigour... but first go camp at frost dragons for an hour to cover the costs of that plus the costs incurred while at the dragons when you use chaotic xbow, diamond bolts(e), cannon, rigour... I am efficient huraah task done in 15 minutes l2rs noobs."

 

You don't have to spend any time making money to cover the costs of training slayer, FYI. Using a cannon, turmoil, overloads, and a steel titan, all you need to do is a couple farm runs a day + MTK to cover the expenses, and that's if you DON'T merch.

 

 

You only managed to name other things I don't care much for.

All of which take additional time and take away from my original goal, complete the slayer task.

I just move my stats from point A to B without all the stupid money making schemes in the name of fanboydom to players with dubious and perhaps illicit amounts of gp and loose understanding of dismal economic philosophies that continually drive the world into bankrupcy every 30 freaking years.

 

 

Runescape would be a dismal freaking game if I thought that way.

I'm not going to camp all day at frost dragons or godwars or tormented demons just to get something done.

But for an efficiency troll enamored with opportunity cost its goes something like this:

"Kill fire giants on slayer task with range.... use chaotic cross-bow use dragon bolts(e), use cannon, use overloads, bring steel titan/spam scrolls, pray rigour... but first go camp at frost dragons for an hour to cover the costs of that plus the costs incurred while at the dragons when you use chaotic xbow, diamond bolts(e), cannon, rigour... I am efficient huraah task done in 15 minutes l2rs noobs."

yeah, nobody told u to do that, ur just stereotyping now :P

The point of opportunity cost isn't to tell you to do the most efficient method of training all the time.

 

The term opportunity cost exists to emphasize the fact that the value of your time one day, might be different from the value of your time another day.

 

Lets say you just finished an REALLY hard exam at school. And your brain is totally wasted.

So while, normally you can kick tormented demon rear for epic cash.

You're not in a state to kick tormented demon rear, therefore you don't pay the opportunity cost because you are too tired.

 

Maybe you're in a really good mood for training slayer.

if you don't train slayer, you pay the opportunity cost of training slayer while you're actually in the mood for training slayer.

Which is undeniably more efficient than training slayer while not being in the mood.

 

Opportunity cost is not a constant number.

 

If you read futher down on that wiki article you linked it gets to the part where the vast majority of economic professors couldn't even answer what it was correctly in a survey.

I found that quite amusing.

[Obtaurian]

So YOU choose to do things the hard way, then complain? Whatever floats your boat.

[crashNburn]

You don't have to make any extra money to powerslay beyond the high 80's anyway...

 

Nothing wrong with people playing the way they want to play, but if you don't powerslay you are technically doing your tasks slower. Just saying...

[xpx]

Take into consideration the cost of getting the Herb level to make the pots, then we can talk about it.

That's the thing- right now, i could easily prove that using no potions at all is much cheaper, but as he hasn't taken into account how to get 92 herblore or how potting effects your combat efficiency, he can't argue that i'm wrong. But yea, if you didn't already know it(and you obviously should have), everyone who has the herblore level uses extremes for training- that's the only reason they got those high herblore levels. Another reason your calculations are meaningless is that they don't mimic real situations- the people that use potions usually pot every 5-8 minutes, not every time they go down to level-x.

 

Golvellius- efficiency is vital for those who want to play this game successfully but don't have an enormous amount of free time lying around. Sure, it's possible to nolife your way to anything, but as efficiency proves, that if you do the things in the right way, you will be saving alot of time. I can't stress it enough, you can't buy time. So while you may have 10 hours to play every day, i'll achieve exactly the same things in 7.

[SirIzenhime]

I usually repot at like...113-110, just because I don't time myself, and usually forget about it until then :P

[Bladewing]

i repot at 120 usually for the melee pots, 117 for range

 

i always use extremes because

1) they are in my bank

2) they are better

3) they save time

4) i like killing stuff fast and hitting high