Vegetarianism

[Assume Nothing]

Eating meat is fine, but the average american eats six times the amount of meat the FDA recommends.

Which is probably where all of the problems come from.

Yep

[Alg]

Guess I should stop eating steaks wrapped in bacon then... :cry:

[Assume Nothing]

Guess I should stop eating steaks wrapped in bacon then... :cry:

Cruelty tastes awesome, I heard.

[TTanT]

Guess I should stop eating steaks wrapped in bacon then... :cry:

Cruelty tastes awesome, I heard.

Hitler's taste buds must've been in heaven.

[Assume Nothing]

To contribute a lil more to this thread, I have found some quotes from an old 'Meat lovers vs. Vegetarians' thread. For some of the worst reasons to be a Vegetarian;

 

NOTE: I am vegetarian (1.5+ years). Please take some time to read this.

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of the things you guys are arguing are just freaking stupid. :roll:

 

Nice argument you have, they do seem to contradict themselves in a way, they wont eat a animal (living thing) yet they'll eat vegetables / fruit / crops (all living things originally).

 

 

 

Plants are rooted to the ground and eat sunlight and nutrients in water and dirt. For the most part they don't have organs. Plants don't think (No, not even Venus fly traps, they're just that, traps). Plants and such are the furthest things from animals that is still included in the category of "living things." Last time I checked I haven't seen plants feed their children, build homes, or show emotion.

 

 

 

I can't believe I even have to retaliate this argument. :wall:

 

 

Call me what you will, it just isn't healthy to stay away from meat completely.

 

Uneducated about this topic.

 

This guy has been vegetarian since 1997 and vegan since 1999, I'd be surprised if he doesn't live until 100.

 

I used to be protein deficient before vegetarianism , but I got my yearly blood test back a few weeks ago and it's gone up into the OK-High level. On average vegetarians and vegans live significantly longer than meat eaters.

 

 

 

UPDATE: Here are my full blood test results after vegetarianism for a year in a nutshell: Every level that was checked was in the "OK" zone (and not borderline) except for 3, TSH, Free T4, and Iron. TSH and Free T4 are thyroid-related because I have thyroid problems inherited from my dad. My Iron has always been low, my mom remembers that when I was a toddler a doctor recommended iron pills for me because he though I was anemic, but I had no symptoms and lived with low iron until now.

 

Even though my low iron is thyroid-related or just my bodily settings, we're trying to get it up anyway and I should take another test in a week to see 1 month progress.

 

 

 

hypocrisy, thy name is vegetarian. a vegetarian cant love the environment, they're eating all the damn plants!

 

Meat is HORRIBLE for the environment. Cows eat around 16 pounds of grain a day, that's a hella lot of grain to grow, just to make 80~ pounds of usable meat for you to eat. Shutting down cow/chicken/pig farming for only year would save more than enough grains and such to seriously affect world hunger.

 

A cow will probably be killed at 3-5 years of growing, meaning 17,088-28,480 pounds of grain consumed, 22,789 pounds being the middle and assuming 100 pounds of meat, that's still 228 pounds of grain for a single pound of meat.

 

All that grain needs space to grow, so they cut down habitats, letting out CO2 by killing trees. (also why I don't support ethanol, but that's a different topic)

 

Yes, sorry that we don't consume that equivalent of an extra 228 pounds of grain per week (assuming you eat 1 pound of meat a week, which is probably a lot less than some of you).

 

That one pound of meat is probably worth at least a month's worth of grain for a block of households.

 

 

 

but humans are omnivores, thus, we need a good combination of meat and vegetables to stay healthy.

 

 

If humans are supposed to eat meat, then we are surely pathetic meat eaters.

 

What real meat-eating animals have to cook their food just so they won't die from it?

 

What natural weapons does a human have to kill animals? You can't even bite through leather. Our "canine" or Incisor teeth are pathetic as well. I have a freaking Maltese and his incisors are longer and sharper than ours.

 

Even horses have these "Canine" teeth = warning-large resolution picture

 

 

 

The reason you might see vegetarians that look ill is because a lot of the time girls just do it because they think they'll lose weight and don't know any thing else vegetarian to eat besides cheerios or something.

 

 

I'm going to sleep, while I'm away look at this: <!-- m -->http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html<!-- m -->

 

 

 

It's all you'll need to answer your arguments.

 

Read everything there and you'll understand that you're the one lacking evidence, you're making an exception for humans by classifying them as meat eaters for 2 reasons:

 

1. because we can

 

2. because we have

 

 

 

I've been saying we aren't because:

 

1. Our body isn't built for it

 

2. Our bodies are healthier without it

 

3. We don't share characteristics with meat-eaters at all

 

-There's more at the link I provided, it cites all of it's sources, check them before criticizing it if you don't believe it or think its flawed.

 

 

Some do it for the health benefits.

 

I'll comment on why most of the arguments are bad later. Don't really want to spend an hour picking up points that hasn't even been discussed

[Alg]

I've been saying we aren't because:

 

1. Our body isn't built for it

 

2. Our bodies are healthier without it

 

3. We don't share characteristics with meat-eaters at all

What.

I can't speak for #2, but 1 and 3 sound very suspect.

What characteristics don't we share with other carnivores? We have teeth that work very well at tearing meat. Whatever physical weaknesses we have we make up for with tool use, as other intelligent species do. Our closest genetic relatives are also omnivores, eating plants primarily but supplementing their diets with meat. We just aren't the sleek predator-types because we don't need to be; If there's no meat we eat plants, if there aren't plants we eat meats. Hell, according to Wikipedia we're more scavengers than hunters.

 

Again, nothing against vegetarians.

[Assume Nothing]

I've been saying we aren't because:

 

1. Our body isn't built for it

 

2. Our bodies are healthier without it

 

3. We don't share characteristics with meat-eaters at all

What.

I can't speak for #2, but 1 and 3 sound very suspect.

What characteristics don't we share with other carnivores? We have teeth that work very well at tearing meat. Whatever physical weaknesses we have we make up for with tool use, as other intelligent species do. Our closest genetic relatives are also omnivores, eating plants primarily but supplementing their diets with meat. We just aren't the sleek predator-types because we don't need to be; If there's no meat we eat plants, if there aren't plants we eat meats. Hell, according to Wikipedia we're more scavengers than hunters.

 

Again, nothing against vegetarians.

 

Almost all the points are picked up on http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm. (Not really a source to quote, but it covers why the arguments he listed are crap)

[Furah]

hypocrisy, thy name is vegetarian. a vegetarian cant love the environment, they're eating all the damn plants!

 

Meat is HORRIBLE for the environment. Cows eat around 16 pounds of grain a day, that's a hella lot of grain to grow, just to make 80~ pounds of usable meat for you to eat. Shutting down cow/chicken/pig farming for only year would save more than enough grains and such to seriously affect world hunger.

 

A cow will probably be killed at 3-5 years of growing, meaning 17,088-28,480 pounds of grain consumed, 22,789 pounds being the middle and assuming 100 pounds of meat, that's still 228 pounds of grain for a single pound of meat.

 

All that grain needs space to grow, so they cut down habitats, letting out CO2 by killing trees. (also why I don't support ethanol, but that's a different topic)

 

Yes, sorry that we don't consume that equivalent of an extra 228 pounds of grain per week (assuming you eat 1 pound of meat a week, which is probably a lot less than some of you).

 

That one pound of meat is probably worth at least a month's worth of grain for a block of households.

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the grain eaten by animals is fit for human consumption (it's not,) and that the land used is fertile enough to grow crops (most of the time it's not.)

[Serpent Eye]

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the grain eaten by animals is fit for human consumption (it's not,) and that the land used is fertile enough to grow crops (most of the time it's not.)

If we didn't have billions and billions and billions of livestock to feed, we would be growing an entirely different type of crop.

 

On the same note, if we weren't using the land to continually grow cattlefeed/corn over and over and over again, the earth would be fertile enough to sustain a normal crop.

 

:thumbup:

 

These issues wouldn't be a problem if consumers were demanding a different source of food.

 

 

Edit: But perhaps we'd eventually run into the same problems even if everyone removed meat from their diet... everyone would be dependent solely on plant foods, and we'd just end up ruining the land anyway...

[Assume Nothing]

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the grain eaten by animals is fit for human consumption (it's not,) and that the land used is fertile enough to grow crops (most of the time it's not.)

If we didn't have billions and billions and billions of livestock to feed, we would be growing an entirely different type of crop.

 

On the same note, if we weren't using the land to continually grow cattlefeed/corn over and over and over again, the earth would be fertile enough to sustain a normal crop.

 

:thumbup:

 

These issues wouldn't be a problem if consumers were demanding a different source of food.

 

 

Edit: But perhaps we'd eventually run into the same problems even if everyone removed meat from their diet... everyone would be dependent solely on plant foods, and we'd just end up ruining the land anyway...

 

That is true, but what about the supplements vegans/vegetarians take for B12 and stuff? And how would Inuit people fare in a meat free world?

[Serpent Eye]

That is true, but what about the supplements vegans/vegetarians take for B12 and stuff?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're implying that we wouldn't use up as much land for farming, because a lot of our nutritional needs would be met by taking supplements and vitamins?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm god-awful tired haha.

[Assume Nothing]

That is true, but what about the supplements vegans/vegetarians take for B12 and stuff?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're implying that we wouldn't use up as much land for farming, because a lot of our nutritional needs would be met by taking supplements and vitamins?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm god-awful tired haha.

 

Nevermind the first part. I'm not sure what I meant either. But answer this; How would Inuit people fare in a meat free world if the world turned Vegan tomorrow?

[Furah]

That is true, but what about the supplements vegans/vegetarians take for B12 and stuff?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're implying that we wouldn't use up as much land for farming, because a lot of our nutritional needs would be met by taking supplements and vitamins?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm god-awful tired haha.

He's asking what you're going to do about the vitamins and minerals you don't get enough of? Supplements are also very unregulated at the moment.

[Serpent Eye]

Nevermind the first part. I'm not sure what I meant either. But answer this; How would Inuit people fare in a meat free world if the world turned Vegan tomorrow?

Lol, ok. Also, I honestly don't get the connection between Inuit people and a vegan diet. You'll have to fill me in here.

 

He's asking what you're going to do about the vitamins and minerals you don't get enough of? Supplements are also very unregulated at the moment.

Well, for me personally, I get enough vitamins and minerals. :) I've talked about this in several previous posts here, hehe. But that point aside, I don't see what the environmental issues have to do with taking supplements.

[Assume Nothing]

Nevermind the first part. I'm not sure what I meant either. But answer this; How would Inuit people fare in a meat free world if the world turned Vegan tomorrow?

Lol, ok. Also, I honestly don't get the connection between Inuit people and a vegan diet. You'll have to fill me in here.

 

He's asking what you're going to do about the vitamins and minerals you don't get enough of? Supplements are also very unregulated at the moment.

Well, for me personally, I get enough vitamins and minerals. :) I've talked about this in several previous posts here, hehe. But that point aside, I don't see what the environmental issues have to do with taking supplements.

Kinda expected you to Wiki it. Basically they are Eskimos. "The Inuit are a group of culturally similar indigenous peoples inhabiting the Arctic regions of Canada (Northwest Territories, Nunatsiavut, Nunavik, Nunavut), Denmark (Greenland), Russia (Siberia) and the United States (Alaska).[2] The Inuit language is grouped under Eskimo-Aleut languages"

 

They live on seal fat and whales because it's impossible to cultivate plants in the Arctic. They pretty much eat 100% meat products to live

[D Jay99]

Awesome point but how exactly does it relate to our western culture?

[Alg]

Awesome point but how exactly does it relate to our western culture?

People eat different foods because not all areas are fit for the same crops, maybe?

Again, doesn't really fit with purely western culture (Or whatever we call it), but the thing is that there are other cultures. And there's definitely a difference between hunting for meat and growing it.

[Serpent Eye]

Kinda expected you to Wiki it. Basically they are Eskimos. "The Inuit are a group of culturally similar indigenous peoples inhabiting the Arctic regions of Canada (Northwest Territories, Nunatsiavut, Nunavik, Nunavut), Denmark (Greenland), Russia (Siberia) and the United States (Alaska).[2] The Inuit language is grouped under Eskimo-Aleut languages"

 

They live on seal fat and whales because it's impossible to cultivate plants in the Arctic. They pretty much eat 100% meat products to live

I know what Inuits are. I just didn't see what your point was. :P

 

Also, as Masquerain brings up, there's a difference between hunting and livestock. The American meat industry isn't out there ruining the environment so that they can sustain the natural seal population in Alaska. They're tearing the earth up to raise huge quantities of livestock for our consumption.

 

Even if the corporate meat industry ceased to exist, the Inuits would still (I imagine) carry on hunting seals and whales as if nothing had happened.

[Furah]

If the meat industry goes down I'd better learn how to skin + cook game and learn how to breed livestock.

[Assume Nothing]

Question of curiosity; Would hunting meet the consumption 'needs' of the human population if we cut down our meat consumption to the recommended guidelines of the FDA?

 

Edit - Oh, and isn't fish meat too? I doubt fish would emit much CO2/Methane, and they eat things that aren't even fit for human consumption (food chain starts at algae and plankton). Fish farming however...

[Alg]

Question of curiosity; Would hunting meet the consumption 'needs' of the human population if we cut down our meat consumption to the recommended guidelines of the FDA?

 

Edit - Oh, and isn't fish meat too? I doubt fish would emit much CO2/Methane, and they eat things that aren't even fit for human consumption (food chain starts at algae and plankton). Fish farming however...

Overfishing is still a problem.

I think the problem is that there are just too many people.

[Assume Nothing]

Question of curiosity; Would hunting meet the consumption 'needs' of the human population if we cut down our meat consumption to the recommended guidelines of the FDA?

 

Edit - Oh, and isn't fish meat too? I doubt fish would emit much CO2/Methane, and they eat things that aren't even fit for human consumption (food chain starts at algae and plankton). Fish farming however...

Overfishing is still a problem.

I think the problem is that there are just too many people.

 

A mass cull can solve that problem. But wait, we have rights. ;/

[Giordano]

The problem is that not there's too many people, it's that everybody's technologies and economies are not the same. Several poor African countries produce a tenth of what American farms do with the same area of land. Why? They don't have the technology to reduce the loss of crops. Plus of what their economies are, they can't afford to make new technology nor import the extra food they need.

 

The world is a big place and if we want to start killing people to save ourselves, we're not using our innovative processes and we go back to the cavemen.

[Furah]

The world is a big place and if we want to start killing people to save ourselves, we're not using our innovative processes and we go back to the cavemen.

But it's the ultimate step in caring for the environment. To kill yourself will stop all negative impact you have on this earth by reducing your carbon footprint to nothing.

[Giordano]

The world is a big place and if we want to start killing people to save ourselves, we're not using our innovative processes and we go back to the cavemen.

But it's the ultimate step in caring for the environment. To kill yourself will stop all negative impact you have on this earth by reducing your carbon footprint to nothing.

We were talking about the lack of natural resources not carbon gas emitting. My point still applies: either invent more 'green' technologies, kill the cows, or plant more trees, there are steps before just killing people. It seems like the environmentalists just love the idea of killing people rather than realistically fix our problem.