Vegetarianism

[Range_This11]

Having class is not excuse for having an unsupported argument. I take a full load of credits at a university just the same as you do.

[spooferfish]

I do not necessarily like the fact that that animals are raised to be killed and eaten. But they taste way too good to not eat. Me not eating meat won't make them stop killing animals to eat. Like for hunting, I have no plans to ever shoot anything I don't plan to eat.

 

*looks at deer tags* Mmmm chislic. Wow, while spell checking that on google the wiki page for it informed me that outside of South Dakota chiclic is not very well known in the US. o.O

[Assume Nothing]

Having class is not excuse for having an unsupported argument. I take a full load of credits at a university just the same as you do.

 

Because I can definitely type up an argument with hours of research on the bus? I will find some research, I just don't have the time at this moment in time

[magekillr]

The global warming one, well....debate for another time.

 

How about now?

 

"The Arctic sea ice has reached its four lowest summer extents (area covered) in the last four years," said Mark Serreze, director of the National Snow and Ice Data Center in the U.S. city of Boulder, Colorado.

 

The volume - extent and thickness - of ice left in the Arctic likely reached the lowest ever level this month, Serreze told IPS.

 

"I stand by my previous statements that the Arctic summer sea ice cover is in a death spiral. It's not going to recover," he said.

 

There can be no recovery because tremendous amounts of extra heat are added every summer to the region as more than 2.5 million square kilometres of the Arctic Ocean have been opened up to the heat of the 24-hour summer sun. A warmer Arctic Ocean not only takes much longer to re-freeze, it emits huge volumes of additional heat energy into the atmosphere, disrupting the weather patterns of the northern hemisphere, scientists have now confirmed.

 

"The exceptional cold and snowy winter of 2009-2010 in Europe, eastern Asia and eastern North America is connected to unique physical processes in the Arctic," James Overland of the NOAA Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory in the United States told IPS in Oslo, Norway last June in an exclusive interview. ' Paradoxically, a warmer Arctic means "future cold and snowy winters will be the rule rather than the exception" in these regions, Overland told IPS.

 

There is growing evidence of widespread impacts from a warmer Arctic, agreed Serreze. "Trapping all that additional heat has to have impacts and those will grow in the future," he said.

Arctic Ice in Death Spiral, dated September 20th, 2010

[Range_This11]

Having class is not excuse for having an unsupported argument. I take a full load of credits at a university just the same as you do.

 

Because I can definitely type up an argument with hours of research on the bus? I will find some research, I just don't have the time at this moment in time

And I will be patiently awaiting your reply :)

[Assume Nothing]

The global warming one, well....debate for another time.

 

How about now?

 

"The Arctic sea ice has reached its four lowest summer extents (area covered) in the last four years," said Mark Serreze, director of the National Snow and Ice Data Center in the U.S. city of Boulder, Colorado.

 

The volume - extent and thickness - of ice left in the Arctic likely reached the lowest ever level this month, Serreze told IPS.

 

"I stand by my previous statements that the Arctic summer sea ice cover is in a death spiral. It's not going to recover," he said.

 

There can be no recovery because tremendous amounts of extra heat are added every summer to the region as more than 2.5 million square kilometres of the Arctic Ocean have been opened up to the heat of the 24-hour summer sun. A warmer Arctic Ocean not only takes much longer to re-freeze, it emits huge volumes of additional heat energy into the atmosphere, disrupting the weather patterns of the northern hemisphere, scientists have now confirmed.

 

"The exceptional cold and snowy winter of 2009-2010 in Europe, eastern Asia and eastern North America is connected to unique physical processes in the Arctic," James Overland of the NOAA Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory in the United States told IPS in Oslo, Norway last June in an exclusive interview. ' Paradoxically, a warmer Arctic means "future cold and snowy winters will be the rule rather than the exception" in these regions, Overland told IPS.

 

There is growing evidence of widespread impacts from a warmer Arctic, agreed Serreze. "Trapping all that additional heat has to have impacts and those will grow in the future," he said.

Arctic Ice in Death Spiral, dated September 20th, 2010

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

[i_love_burritos]

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

 

That's like saying "simple reduction in CO2 emissions by way of developing more efficient cars doesn't warrant the development of electric cars".

 

It doesn't follow.

[Assume Nothing]

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

 

That's like saying "simple reduction in CO2 emissions by way of developing more efficient cars doesn't warrant the development of electric cars".

 

It doesn't follow.

 

Electric cars are less efficient than Efficient cars, it takes many hours to charge a electric car and there are many disadvantages to it (also lower top speed, etc).

 

In itself, the environmental impact alone isn't a significant enough 'cause' for the world to become a vegetarian tomorrow. Also, a vegetarian diet has less variety than a mixed diet (a well balanced meal is just as healthy as a vegetarian meal). CO2 emissions isn't not the ONLY problem to eating meat, and completely ignoring meat products in your diet may cause Iron/Protein/B12 deficiency.

 

And it really depends on what you're referring to in terms of the environmental impact. Like I said before, if there are more efficient methods to feed the cattle, and less wasteful methods to transport the food, the problem will be reduced. If you're referring to the manure, it will exist as long as the animal exists, so not eating it doesn't solve it (although if the meat industry shut down itself, that's a different story)

 

Only got 3 more minutes of break left so I don't have the time to write more.

 

My 2 cents

[Assume Nothing]

Oh - Whoever asked me to source my information, I got some of it (note 'some') from this; http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm

 

(there is also research on this thing; http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/myth-vegetarians-live-longer-and-have-more-energy-and-endurance)

[D Jay99]

Oh - Whoever asked me to source my information, I got some of it (note 'some') from this; http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm

Nigel Longhurst, a.k.a. Craig Fitzroy, has a degree in psychology. He is currently working on his magnum opus, Fitzroy's Crap Theories of the Mind, Body & Spirit.

Eh.

[Assume Nothing]

Oh - Whoever asked me to source my information, I got some of it (note 'some') from this; http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm

Nigel Longhurst, a.k.a. Craig Fitzroy, has a degree in psychology. He is currently working on his magnum opus, Fitzroy's Crap Theories of the Mind, Body & Spirit.

Eh.

 

I don't know how a title of a unrelated book correlates to anything about Vegetarianism...

[D Jay99]

Nah it was more that his degree has absolutely nothing to do with food of any kind so his he's not really to be considered credible on this subject (or just as credible as you and I are, not a source to quote). The book part was kinda irrelevant

[meol]

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

 

That's like saying "simple reduction in CO2 emissions by way of developing more efficient cars doesn't warrant the development of electric cars".

 

It doesn't follow.

[hide]

Electric cars are less efficient than Efficient cars, it takes many hours to charge a electric car and there are many disadvantages to it (also lower top speed, etc).

 

In itself, the environmental impact alone isn't a significant enough 'cause' for the world to become a vegetarian tomorrow. Also, a vegetarian diet has less variety than a mixed diet (a well balanced meal is just as healthy as a vegetarian meal). CO2 emissions isn't not the ONLY problem to eating meat, and completely ignoring meat products in your diet may cause Iron/Protein/B12 deficiency.

 

And it really depends on what you're referring to in terms of the environmental impact. Like I said before, if there are more efficient methods to feed the cattle, and less wasteful methods to transport the food, the problem will be reduced. If you're referring to the manure, it will exist as long as the animal exists, so not eating it doesn't solve it (although if the meat industry shut down itself, that's a different story)

 

Only got 3 more minutes of break left so I don't have the time to write more.

 

My 2 cents

[/hide]

"It's not a perfect solution" is what I'm getting from your post. Even if vegetarianism won't solve global warming by itself and better methods of raising cattle could be developed -we can agree on that-, it is still a valid lifestyle with valid reasoning, and it helps tackle the problems mentioned. I don't think any vegetarian is saying a sudden global change is the only solution to anything.

 

There's too much hate against vegetarians. Is it cognitive dissonance in action, after too many good arguments? I must agree with torilliachp (again).

[Assume Nothing]

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

 

That's like saying "simple reduction in CO2 emissions by way of developing more efficient cars doesn't warrant the development of electric cars".

 

It doesn't follow.

[hide]

Electric cars are less efficient than Efficient cars, it takes many hours to charge a electric car and there are many disadvantages to it (also lower top speed, etc).

 

In itself, the environmental impact alone isn't a significant enough 'cause' for the world to become a vegetarian tomorrow. Also, a vegetarian diet has less variety than a mixed diet (a well balanced meal is just as healthy as a vegetarian meal). CO2 emissions isn't not the ONLY problem to eating meat, and completely ignoring meat products in your diet may cause Iron/Protein/B12 deficiency.

 

And it really depends on what you're referring to in terms of the environmental impact. Like I said before, if there are more efficient methods to feed the cattle, and less wasteful methods to transport the food, the problem will be reduced. If you're referring to the manure, it will exist as long as the animal exists, so not eating it doesn't solve it (although if the meat industry shut down itself, that's a different story)

 

Only got 3 more minutes of break left so I don't have the time to write more.

 

My 2 cents

[/hide]

"It's not a perfect solution" is what I'm getting from your post. Even if vegetarianism won't solve global warming by itself and better methods of raising cattle could be developed -we can agree on that-, it is still a valid lifestyle with valid reasoning, and it helps tackle the problems mentioned. I don't think any vegetarian is saying a sudden global change is the only solution to anything.

 

There's too much hate against vegetarians. Is it cognitive dissonance in action, after too many good arguments? I must agree with torilliachp (again).

 

Well, the fact is, there are a few good, valid reasons (usually debatable, but I do agree to an extent that it does contribute to global warming), but there are plenty of crap ones too, that is too often used in a argument about Vegetarianism.

 

The one thing I absolutely can't stand is a Vegetarian who constantly preach about how their lifestyle is 'better' and 'you should be ashamed of eating meat'. Admittedly, I have had that kind of experience before, and it gets really annoying at times.

[Myweponsg00d]

Damn, offtopic is basically "heated debate forum" now. Haha

 

I didn't mean to start such a huge argument. (though I bet someone wouldve brought up the environmental reasons anyway)

 

The bottom line is, whether you are an omnivore or an herbivore, you can't deny the fact that meat production is a strain on our food supply and it is a wasteful process. I just wanted people to consider an actual logical reason for being vegan, instead of the "moral/emotional" reasons.

 

Unless you think it is a "moral" choice of whether or not the place that you live in should become overpolluted. I think anyone who had half a rational thought could figure out that the young people of today need to start worrying about the destruction of the earth while they are still alive.

[Zierro]

The one thing I absolutely can't stand is a Vegetarian who constantly preach about how their lifestyle is 'better' and 'you should be ashamed of eating meat'.

 

Exactly this. A lot of vegetarians are insinuating that I am a worse person than them for not converting to vegetarianism, which is completely ridiculous. I have no personal vendetta against a vegetarian unless they go down that "holier than thou" road, then you're just asking for it.

[Albel]

The one thing I absolutely can't stand is a Vegetarian who constantly preach about how their lifestyle is 'better' and 'you should be ashamed of eating meat'.

 

Exactly this. A lot of vegetarians are insinuating that I am a worse person than them for not converting to vegetarianism, which is completely ridiculous. I have no personal vendetta against a vegetarian unless they go down that "holier than thou" road, then you're just asking for it.

Exactly my thoughts. Vegetarians just piss me off when they say this. I have to restrain my self from getting to angry :mellow:

[Guy]

Vegetarianism = no chicken/bacon = I'm not a vegetarian :)

I respect the reasons why vegetarians are vegetarian and I do agree with some of that stuff. I mean.. like eating free range chickens instead of battery chickens. It sort of clears your moral conscience a little.

 

It's natural for us to eat meat. Were at the top of the food chain (give or take) and as someone else said we were born omnivores. Its never happened to me, but I can see myself being quite annoyed if a vegetarian lectures me on the 'errors of my ways'.

[Assume Nothing]

Vegetarianism = no chicken/bacon = I'm not a vegetarian :)

I respect the reasons why vegetarians are vegetarian and I do agree with some of that stuff. I mean.. like eating free range chickens instead of battery chickens. It sort of clears your moral conscience a little.

 

It's natural for us to eat meat. Were at the top of the food chain (give or take) and as someone else said we were born omnivores. Its never happened to me, but I can see myself being quite annoyed if a vegetarian lectures me on the 'errors of my ways'.

 

Oh I totally agree with eating free range chicken. It's not only better for the chicken, it's better tasting for yourself, and also has the added health benefits of having less fat (generalisation here).

 

To start a new subtopic; How many days can you last (per week) on a Vegan/Vegetarian diet? No sneak bacon sandwiches, no hotdogs for a snack.

 

Personally, I won't last for long (That's what she said?) but I think I can manage 3 days without meat. What about you (everyone reading this thread)?

[i_love_burritos]

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

 

That's like saying "simple reduction in CO2 emissions by way of developing more efficient cars doesn't warrant the development of electric cars".

 

It doesn't follow.

...

 

You misunderstood my post. I was saying that if a certain activity reduces energy consumption by x amount it "warrants" doing an activity that reduces it by 2x amount.

[Iconic]

Just to a raise a point, people who aren't brought up eating foods will not like them in there later years because they will never be accustoemd to there face (the same applys to races). So not liking meat is a valid reason but I think most of the time people like meat they just can't stand eating the animal.

 

For reference: Not eating meat for whatever reason won't bring that animal back to life and it won't really even lower the demand, it'll just mean that the bins will be full.

 

IMO, when a person checks a pack of bloody haribo's to see if there is pork fat in there, this sums up up the 'its dead' reason and you making a stand by not eating these (already bought) haribo's isn't going to do a thing.

 

And lets just clarify how this works in the animal kindom.

 

[hide]

The slug is a vegatarian, does not require packs, does not develop sentience and stays stupid[/hide]

 

[hide]

Hyena's travel in packs, will slowly become more intellegant through evolution and have evolved 'better'[/hide]

[Guy]

Vegetarianism = no chicken/bacon = I'm not a vegetarian :)

I respect the reasons why vegetarians are vegetarian and I do agree with some of that stuff. I mean.. like eating free range chickens instead of battery chickens. It sort of clears your moral conscience a little.

 

It's natural for us to eat meat. Were at the top of the food chain (give or take) and as someone else said we were born omnivores. Its never happened to me, but I can see myself being quite annoyed if a vegetarian lectures me on the 'errors of my ways'.

 

Oh I totally agree with eating free range chicken. It's not only better for the chicken, it's better tasting for yourself, and also has the added health benefits of having less fat (generalisation here).

 

To start a new subtopic; How many days can you last (per week) on a Vegan/Vegetarian diet? No sneak bacon sandwiches, no hotdogs for a snack.

 

Personally, I won't last for long (That's what she said?) but I think I can manage 3 days without meat. What about you (everyone reading this thread)?

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not in the first sentence.. :P it's hard to tell over the interwebz.

 

Hm.. I really couldn't last long, I'm not a great eater (I don't like lots of food) and every meal but breakfast includes some kind of meat for me.

[Zierro]

Hyena's travel in packs, will slowly become more intellegant through evolution and have evolved 'better'

 

Interesting point - those who are on top of the evolutionary chain are also on the top of the food chain.

 

But what about herbivores such as cows and carnivores such as certain fish?

[Assume Nothing]

Simple reduction of meat in the average diet will solve it, doesn't warrant Vegetarianism

 

That's like saying "simple reduction in CO2 emissions by way of developing more efficient cars doesn't warrant the development of electric cars".

 

It doesn't follow.

...

 

You misunderstood my post. I was saying that if a certain activity reduces energy consumption by x amount it "warrants" doing an activity that reduces it by 2x amount.

 

There are health issues surrounding complete removal of meat from the diet (Yes, there is stuff you get from meat which is relatively low in vegetables). A vegetarian is more likely to break a bone, suffer iron deficiency, lack Vitamin B12, lack protein, and lack Vitamin D. "Researchers at Oxford University recently followed 35,000 individuals aged 20 to 89 for a period of five years and discovered that vegans are 30% more likely to break a bone than their vegetarian and flesh-eating peers. A subsequent study conducted by Sydney’s Garvan Institute for Medical Research found that vegetarians had bones 5% less dense than meat-eaters. This can be attributed to the fact that many vegetarians and vegans consume very little calcium due to the limitations of their diet."

 

It isn't clearly established what it is that causes the CO2 emissions from the cattle. Is it the transport? Is it the manure? For the transport, there are easy solutions, use Hybrid/Electric cars or trucks to transport the feed. De-bone meat before it gets shipped. For the Manure, if the animal exists, it will still emit those gases. Sure, there will be less animals in the first place, but figures of current cattle emissions would be slightly bias.

 

"Fruit and vegetable farms also harm the environment through the burning of agricultural waste and the production of oxide emissions from nitrogen fertilizer."

 

It is undeniable that eating beef imported from New Zealand would be detrimental to the environment, but it just doesn't justify the complete abolition of the use of meat. How would Inuit people cope with a meatless diet?

 

I believe that if we are able to reduce the amount of food wasted by at least a half, and eat less meat in general, that would cut down 1/2 of the environmental impact of meat eating (from 18% of CO2 emissions to 9%).

 

EDIT -

 

 

Vegetarianism = no chicken/bacon = I'm not a vegetarian :)

I respect the reasons why vegetarians are vegetarian and I do agree with some of that stuff. I mean.. like eating free range chickens instead of battery chickens. It sort of clears your moral conscience a little.

 

It's natural for us to eat meat. Were at the top of the food chain (give or take) and as someone else said we were born omnivores. Its never happened to me, but I can see myself being quite annoyed if a vegetarian lectures me on the 'errors of my ways'.

 

Oh I totally agree with eating free range chicken. It's not only better for the chicken, it's better tasting for yourself, and also has the added health benefits of having less fat (generalisation here).

 

To start a new subtopic; How many days can you last (per week) on a Vegan/Vegetarian diet? No sneak bacon sandwiches, no hotdogs for a snack.

 

Personally, I won't last for long (That's what she said?) but I think I can manage 3 days without meat. What about you (everyone reading this thread)?

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not in the first sentence.. :P it's hard to tell over the interwebz.

 

Hm.. I really couldn't last long, I'm not a great eater (I don't like lots of food) and every meal but breakfast includes some kind of meat for me.

 

I guess with a name like Not_Trolling, it's hard to tell. But generally speaking, it is actually healthier to eat Free Range Chicken, so no it wasn't sarcasm (although I probably phrased it in a patronising way >.<).

[TTanT]

Here's an interesting question to (moral) vegetarians: Do you normally kill bugs?

 

I'm not a moral vegetarian (does that make me an amoral vegetarian?), but I kill bugs all the time. However, this is mainly because I am terrified of them.

 

Just to a raise a point, people who aren't brought up eating foods will not like them in there later years because they will never be accustoemd to there face (the same applys to races). So not liking meat is a valid reason but I think most of the time people like meat they just can't stand eating the animal.

 

For reference: Not eating meat for whatever reason won't bring that animal back to life and it won't really even lower the demand, it'll just mean that the bins will be full.

 

IMO, when a person checks a pack of bloody haribo's to see if there is pork fat in there, this sums up up the 'its dead' reason and you making a stand by not eating these (already bought) haribo's isn't going to do a thing.

 

And lets just clarify how this works in the animal kindom.

 

[hide]

The slug is a vegatarian, does not require packs, does not develop sentience and stays stupid[/hide]

 

[hide]

Hyena's travel in packs, will slowly become more intellegant through evolution and have evolved 'better'[/hide]

Actually, in my case at least I really do dislike meat. I mean, I actually find the smell, etc to be unappetizing in the extreme.

 

And the fact that carnivores tend to be mroe intelligent is irrelevant. Humans have reached a point where how we evolve is different that how other animals do. Our evolution is steered by our own society, so being a vegetarians won't make your children stupider.

 

Two last things:

 

1: I grinned when I discovered I was quoted in the first post.

 

2.I forget who said this, but to the person who asked me to imagine eating a steak, youa re exactly what I dislike in some non-vegetarians. I don't care if youe at emat, so stop trying to talk me into eating it myself, okay?

 

I remember once being told off by a eprson for beign a vegetarian. When I asked him why he cared, as I never asked him to be a vegetarian he said "By being one you're rpessuring us to become them, too."** Now, may I ask why one would feel pressured to become a vegetarian just by me being one? Can people really be that unsure of themselves, and feel that guitly about/ uncomfortable with their dietary choices?

 

**This happened 3 years ago, so this quote is obviously paraphrased.